Am I Liable for This? You Be the Judge…
Yesterday I received an email from a reader who had hired a copywriter based on my recommendation in late 2009.
Unfortunately, he was not happy with the sales letter he received from the copywriter, and the copywriter allegedly did not complete the work he had been paid to do.
About seven weeks ago, the reader wrote to me about his negative experience with this copywriter. It was the second compaint I had received from readers regarding this copywriter, and I had also received an additional warning from a fellow marketer.
At that point, I pulled my endorsement of the copywriter, and made it clear on my website that I am no longer recommending him.
Now yesterday I received another email from the reader…
Hi Eric,
I hope you are well.
Just to let you know I contacted BBB.org, PayPal and my credit card company.
The business of Nicholas Cole is not registered with BBB.org.
The complaint with PayPal can only be filed within 45 days from the date of payment and that period is exceeded due to Nicholas’ procrastination and the story telling.
My credit card company is not able to provide the refund of $1344 I paid to Nicholas for the letters he never wrote as there is an involvement from PayPal between them and the vendor.
I acted on your recommendation to choose services of Nicholas Cole as you described him trustworthy and reliable.
From all people and businesses who gave testimonials on his web site only one responded on my enquiry.
The others simply ignored my enquiry and some of the have URL error.
I do not want to lose $1344 USD for nothing as I acted in full honesty and transparency and am asking you to provide me with the full refund.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Kind regards
Dragutin
As you’ve seen, the reader is asking me to compensate him for the payment he made to the copywriter.
I should mention that I do appreciate his polite tone. If he had sent a “flame” I wouldn’t be featuring it here.
I asked him for some additional information, and here is a copy of his communications with the copywriter:
So there are really two questions at stake here…
1) Am I legally liable for the products I endorse or promote as an affiliate?
2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
The ramifications are very significant, because the answers to these questions affect not only this situation but also…
- Everything I endorse/promote.
- Everyone who endorses anything or promotes something as an affiliate.
This is why the Internet marketing world was in a tizzy last December when the FTC rolled out their new guidelines for endorsements and testimonials.
So let’s answer the first question, as it applies to this situation:
Am I legally liable?
According to the FTC, endorsers may be liable for false or unsubstantiated claims made in an endorsement, or for failure to disclose material connections between the advertiser and endorsers.
Let’s talk about false or unsubstantiated claims.
If I had blindly promoted the product/service without checking it out first (as many affiliates do in this industry, and as I have done in the past on occasion), then I believe I might bear liability if my claims did not match up to the product. Let that be a word of warning to all affiliate marketers: You ARE responsible for what you say/write.
However, in this case I was speaking from first-hand experience. I had actually paid this copywriter $197 to write a sales letter for me, and I felt that the product I received was a good value for the amount that I had paid.
Therefore, my claim was substantiated, and I made the recommendation in good faith that the copywriter would provide similar value for other customers.
Now let’s talk about disclosing material connections.
I initially wrote my recommendation in October of 2009, which was prior to the new FTC guidelines going into effect.
When the new guidelines went into effect on December 1st, I added an “Affiliate & Material Connection Statement” to my website, which I believe satisfies this requirement. If I am shown otherwise, then I might need to get more aggressive about disclosing material/affiliate relationships.
In this particular case, I never did get paid an affiliate commission for the sale in question. So I’m not sure how that affects the material connection from a legal standpoint. Am I still an affiliate if I’m getting scammed too?
OK, so in my opinion I am NOT legally liable for the copywriter’s failure in this situation.
But that brings us to the next question…
What is the right and ethical thing to do?
Although I am someone who believes in absolute truth, and a clear distinction between right and wrong… the realm of ethics can still be grey at times.
I’ve tried to put myself in the customer’s shoes.
If I were him, I probably would have written the same email to me.
I’ve been a victim of scams in the past, so I’m familiar with what he is feeling. It’s one of the worst feelings that the pallet of human emotions can paint. Anger, frustration, regret, self-loathing… all rolled into one. The only way out of it is to go through the grief cycle, and reach a point of acceptance.
From the look of my dear reader’s emails, he’s gone through the denial and anger stages, and has now come around to the bargaining stage. Like I said, I’d be bargaining too.
I see this from two perspectives… justice, and compassion.
From the justice standpoint, I believe it would not be right for me to give him the refund out of my own pocket. Would justice be served by this? No.
Now… IF I had been paid a commission, I do think partial justice could be served if I refunded that commission to the customer. But in this case, there is no commission to speak of.
From a compassion standpoint, I’d love to help out my reader.
If we were talking about a much smaller dollar amount, I probably would have just offered to pay for it (or more likely… I wouldn’t have gotten an email about it in the first place). But $1344 is a decent chunk of change.
We all know the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If it were the other way around, would I want him to pay for my refund out of his pocket? Yes I would, at this moment in time. But after more time has passed, I would most likely come to the conclusion that justice would not be served by an otherwise innocent affiliate paying me out of his own pocket.
In other words, my sense of justice would eventually trump my desire for recompense. (The two are not mutually exclusive. The victim should be paid back in order for justice to be served, but taking the money from the wrong person is not the solution)
So I do not think it is my moral obligation to pay for the customer’s loss…
But I want to know what YOU think!
I told the customer I would post this on my blog, and take my reader’s opinions into consideration.
I want to know:
What would you do in my situation, and why?
I am absolutely willing to pay a full refund to the customer if the arguments in his favor outweigh the arguments against.
I wish I could just err on the side of compassion, but obviously such a precendent could open me up to a lot of headaches and abuse due to other customers taking advantage of my leniency. If that is the outcome, then I will probably change some things about how I run my business.
Post your comments below. Please do not “trash” me OR the customer or even the copywriter. That’s not the point of this. At the same time I am not necessarily looking for support. I want your honest opinion, even if you are not on my side.
Obviously this is not something that needed to be made public, but I am doing so because I think we can have a good constructive conversation. This is an important topic that affects all Internet marketers. So let us know what you think.
Thanks for your input!
UPDATE: I’ve now posted the conclusion to this saga here:
Eric,
I think you have a problem. My openion is you are not liable but the fact that you even question the demand says you feel obligated and owe the man something. I can’t answer your question should you or do you. The internet is the most dangerous place ever to do business so put in a disclaimer and the buyer has to go back to the vendor for his money.
Bill
You are right, I do feel some obligation otherwise I wouldn’t have written the blog post…
I am sorry that this customer did not get the work done that he paid for.Not to say anything bad about the copywriter,but if he was paid to do a job for someone,and did not complete it,or finish it to the customer’s satisfaction,then the copywriter should refund the money to the customer,or at least try to work with them to rectify the problem.I was always told,the customer is always right.The exception to that last paragraph is,that the customer should not hold the person who recommended the copywriter,liable for any refund.Come on,you only recommended the person,and as far as you knew,he or she,was good at what they did.How were you to know,that this person would not complete what they were paid to do.I feel bad for everyone,but I think everyone should sit down and see if this can be taken care of,and come to some decision,that will be agreeable to all parties.If that is not the case,then the customer should take legal action against the copywriter,not you,to maybe get some if not all,the money he paid.Finally,I still say that you recommended the person,but where would that make you liable.Also was there a contract for this work.I hope this helped you a little,and once again I feel bad for everyone,but the copywriter needs to refund the customer,because that is what is the right thing to do,and the professional thing to do.Thanks Eric,please do not feel bad,and thanks for asking me,for my opinion.Respectfully,Fred
I don’t feel that you are responsible. Whether you got paid or not from the copywriter is immaterial. Did you have a valid, in force agreement, with the copywriter at the time of the agreement between the two? If you did then I feel that you owe him what you would have made even if you did not receive it from the copywriter. Everyone got scammed. If your agreement was only if the sale went through your sales channel, which you can verify, then perhaps you’re off the hook.
Since you have rescinded your endorsement you show that you are taking action against the copywriter. Is it sufficient? Maybe not. Since you’ve been provided with copies of the e-mails you could put them up linked to a “no longer endorsed” notation for the copywriter. (with all the necessary disclaimers i.e. Copywriter has refused to return my calls or emails)
Lastly, maybe you could suggest to your readers that they contract with copywriters that are willing to do their work with payment held in escrow. Or payment upon satisfactory completion or half now, half later or some other terms.
again this is a droid voice to text technologythe client is in correct in thinking that you owe him money was that we need him and the writer you had any responsibility i’m bringing the 2 together buyer beware is term for him ,being not with room service tough cookies
Eric,
In my opinion you are not responsible. You did retract your endorsement publicly when you discovered problems.
However; you are a kind man and care for your customers. You are also quite a copywriter yourself. Why not try to work a deal to offer your copywriting skills to help out the guy out? That would be in line with your over-deliver style.
Not a bad idea. I normally charge $10k+ for sales letters, but it is something I could consider bringing to the table.
Eric,
I agree with the consensus, and I don’t think you’re responsible to refund the money this person spent. I think we all have to take personal responsibility for the choices we make and the people we work with, regardless of the recommendation source.
With that said, I love the idea of offering to help by personally providing a portion of the sales letter work he’s looking for, with clear boundaries around revision(s).
You seem to have a great heart and you’re definitely a “good dubie” among IMers.
Thanks for the high value you provide, all the time.
Best,
Kate
(P.S. I have a policy of paying only 50% up front with a clearly written scope of what’s to be delivered. The remaining upon delivery.)
Dear Eric,
As most have agreed, you have no legal or moral obligation to refund money paid to another. Like you said, if you had gotten an affiliate commission, perhaps refunding that to your reader would be an act of faith and goodwill.
But, I agree with Lawton that you should consider raising the bar for whom you endorse.
I appreciate your humility in presenting this case publicly and asking for opinions.
Blessings,
Jim Bob
Raise the bar… I like it.
Raising the bar is a good idea.
Nicholas Cole however, needs someone to lower the boom on him.
Eric, Your videos are terrific and so are you for doing them. Legally, you are not responsible for this copywriter; however, I would offer an apology to the victim as well as perhaps an invite to another of your programs for free..
I really feel like you should not be responsible for this loss, 1st. he should not have paid in advance. No need until he was satisfied. I have a big list of products I have purchased in the last three years, PayPal refused to do anything, as well as the vendor, Like you I learned from my mistakes, however the purchase price is still gone. It still happens on a regular basis with under $50 products. I am seriously considering dropping my PayPal account as at times it seems they do not care at all about the purchaser. But is very hard to get along with it.
Interesting you say that, because I’ve found paypal to be pretty friendly to the buyer. With a few clicks the buyer can file a complaint with Paypal, and the seller must prove delivery of the product or else refund it. Typically has to be within 45 days though.
Eric,
Just pay the man. You were smart to bring this issue to your blog readers, which will only increase your credibility with your target audience. You’ll end up getting that $1344 paid back in spades if you do more than is:
a) legally required of you.
b) expected of you ethically.
In short, more people on the fence will go with your recommendations in the future based upon how well you handle this. Yes, it’ll be tough to pay for some other persons mistake. But “Just do it.”
Brina
Appreciate your opinion as always.
A good heart is always susceptible to abuse. All the good advice you give out for free could benefit you financially but you choose to share it. It is obvious that you are not in this business just to make money. However, there are those who are just “in it to win it” and will cheat you “by any means necessary”. A scam can be a team effort and anyone who tells you to pay for someone else’s mistake because you have a good reputation could be a part of the plot. Anyone with good, adult sense would not tell you to do that. The fact that you are troubled by this man’s loss and asked for help in resolving it is a sign that you want to help. This tells me you are not out to dupe anyone. What I’d like to know is, did you try to get in touch with the copy writer to get the other side of the story or did you see the copy that the buyer was not happy with? You might just find that the problem has more to it than you know. I suggest that you get all the facts from all sides before you even consider throwing money at the problem. What if you find that there is no problem at all? What if someone is just cunning and greedy? What if there is an easy fix that doesn’t cost you money? I’m just saying……… what if? It’s just smarter to do the math before giving the answer. Mel
Eric,
First, I do believe you are NOT responsible.
I do have a question…have YOU tried to contact Nicholas? Maybe there is a somewhat valid reason for his non response.
I believe if I had recommended someone, I would be hard after them.
Second, I believe Dragutin should have never paid that much upfront for anything.
My suggestion would be to offer Dragutin one of your products for free. Just as a token of good faith?
Dave
Good question.
I contacted him previously on behalf of my marketing friend who had warned me about him after my initial recommendation. Nicholas did get that one worked out, but it took awhile. I also did some googling before doing this blog post, and found that several other people have written similar complaints about him around the internet. I’m seeing a strong pattern here, and it’s obvious that Nicholas has a problem. I’m not yet convinced that he’s a con-artist, per se. It could be that he has personal issues, family problems, a handicap, who knows. But he’s got a history of making excuses and not getting jobs done. Do I do feel this post is justified at this time.
I have also tried contacting him again today, and hopefully he will reply. Next step will be to attempt to call him on the phone.
This indeed is a difficult situation Eric.
Legally you are not responsible - nor are you responsible morally. We are each responsible for our own decisions no matter who “recommended” anything.
You spent around $200 with this person and gave him a job within his expertise - your friend spent closer to $1400 and perhaps put this copywriter out of his depth. You had no way of knowing that - if that was the case.
The compassionate point of view alone would be easy with your standards, but as you point out. It would also be way too easy for others to take advantage of you.
Ignoring the situation would put your reputation in jeopardy - but you are not doing that.
This client does need to face the fact that:
You are not liable - he made the decision to spend $1400 on this copywriter. Business deals ALWAYS come with risk.
You made the recommendation based on your experience, so your recommendation was made in good faith.
Once he is able to face his responsibility in this situation, I trust this client will not expect you to compensate him for a decision HE made.
I think that if you DO make some compensation out of compassion (God will lead you there), the above realities need to be clear in this clients mind FIRST.
To learn from this situation:
Perhaps we all need to use the same wording that is used in the stock markets with our future recommendations. (Past experience does not guarantee future results).
I trust this helps a little Erik - I pray for God’s wisdom for you in this situation.
You are right that I had no idea someone was spending $1400 with the writer.
For one thats a lot of money to let go to waste. I think you should pay him you will make that back in minutes cause you know how, so yes you should you recommended it and he was following your instructions. Man this internet stuff is harder then many folks realize. You didnt take his money and run but still it was recommended by you and some folks are richer in can take a lost but some cant and if you know the ends and out of this internet system. You teach poeple how to make a living on the internet. In that’s a lesson for you too.People give up their whole life saving for this stuff Pay him. Thats my opinion
no
Just pay the man. You were smart to bring this issue to your blog readers, which will only increase your credibility with your target audience. You’ll end up getting that $1344 paid back in spades if you do more than is:
a) legally required of you.
b) expected of you ethically.
In short, more people on the fence will go with your recommendations in the future based upon how well you handle this. Yes, it’ll be tough to pay for some other persons mistake. But “Just do it.”
I, have to agree you are not responsible for other people when their actions speak louder than words. I agree with David he is right all the way to the bank…
Hi Eric,
It appears that you acted in good faith. Morally you are not liable for refunding any money, and from a legal standpoint, you are a third party and likely have no liability in connection with the matter. (That would be the case in the UK, I believe, but I am not a lawyer.)
I do not understand why the customer is not chasing the service provider through legal channels for recovery of the money. That is what I would do, and here in the UK, that’s pretty easy to do.
It may also be the case that the credit card company and/or PayPal can be sued in connection with the matter.
Hi David,
According to me the client that lost his money is not willing to pay also for legal representation, as the copywriter could be also broke, and from this point of view he wouldn’t see any of his money back. Not only - he will most probably have to pay even more for a legal representative…
I personally “refund” these types of requests almost without question - simply because my name is attached and many people don’t really care who they “legally” may have “paid” …
In one specific example, I have a product I sell that I have setup to pay 100% of the sales price directly to non-profit organizations (could just as easily be affiliates). So I receive “zero” money for these transactions (the cash doesn’t even pass through my hands). But I receive about 1-3 refund requests each month - which I refund without question.
My circumstances are different than yours; and my choices are different. But they are choices that I choose to make because my “name” is attached to the transaction.
In most “normal” circumstances where a referral is being made, there is compensation. Refunds and refund policies vary from company to company, but they exist. And to the extent that they exist, they are simply a “cost of doing business”…
How we choose to treat our customers becomes part of our identity - aka who and what we are. If we choose to treat our customers and generally honest people, those few refund requests we get will generally be from honest people. There will always be the few that are trying to “scam” or “play” the system - but in general, I prefer to simply refund them and never do business with them again.
I hear ya. I generally always honor refunds on my own products, even when customers are trying to rip me off. But $1344 for someone else’s product feels different…
You are not responsible in any way whatsoever. You gave a recommendation in good faith based on your past experience with the copywriter and that’s the end of it. You did not guarantee the copywriter’s work in any way, and you also promptly removed the recommendation once you learned about the problems he was creating.
I can see the reader’s point as well, but that does not make you liable in any way, shape or form, and I must say that the reader has alot of nerve even asking YOU to refund his money. I can sympathize with the guy too, but you should not pay. Its not your problem.
He should have checked the copywriter’s profile or searched more thoroughly for similar recommendations, especially before paying for any services up front.
The lesson to us readers is clear… always check people out as thoroughly as possible before using them. Eric, didn’t you mention something before about a forum where people can find copywriting services? If there were any complaints about anyone, that would be quite visible there.
If you still feel guilty about this situation for some reason, perhaps you could send that copywriter an email on the reader’s behalf, explaining that you have recommended him to your own readers and how he is making you look bad, and maybe you can convince him to either get the work done or refund the customer’s money?
If you did that much then you’d be going above and beyond the call of duty in my book. But as far as you personally refunding the money? No way.
yeah I did mention a copywriter list on the warrior forum. And yup… I just checked and Nicholas does have some complaints over there.
Hi Eric,
I agree with the majority of the other posters here in that you are not liable or obligated to refund this person’s money.
To give an analogy, this would be like recommending a restaurant to some friends, telling them you had great meal and good service. They took your recommendation but their experience was that they had a bad meal and horrible service. The restaurant manager would not refund their meal price so they come to you and say you owe them the price of their meal because they went there on your recommendation.
You acted in good faith and based your recommendation on a good experience. So you do not owe this person anything.
Sean
Eric
You only recomended the copywriter it was up to the buyer to check the copywriter first and to see if other people also recomended that copywriter. Your not responsible for payment, never pay up front a deposit perhaps but check work before payment that way you will not get ripped of.
Eric,
You absolutely must NOT issue a refund on behalf of the crook who stole from someone else. Your analysis of the situation is spot-on. Had you been paid by the copywriter, I would say you should refund your commission. In this case, however, you acted on good faith and personal experience.
You withdrew your endorsement immediately upon finding out the guy wasn’t worthy of it and I believe that the most that anyone, legally, could ask you to do.
If there is any further moral or ethical obligation on your part, it is to take action to alert the IM community to Nicholas’s fraud and do everything within your power to help the victim recover his money.
I would not feel that you are obligated to pay him. But, I think it might be in your best interst to contact the copywriter as a “neutral third party” and see if something can be resolved (either work satisfaction or a refund).
Tell Mr Cage that you HAVE recommended him in the past, AND brought him sales, but you will refuse to recommend him again if this cannot be resolved.
Then report back to dragutin with your findings (or lack of).
Charlie
Working on it now. I’m a little more than a neutral 3rd party though, because the copywriter has put my reputation in jeopardy too…
Hi Erc,
I would think about my reputation first, and all the rest comes second.
And even if you are not legaly obliged to refund the payment, you could do one of these two:
1) Write the copy letters yourself for the guy who followed your recommendation and lost his cash
2) Pay him the cash he lost, even if you are not responcible, or obliged.
This will make you stand out as a very honest and conserned for his custommers marketer, and your reputation will soar even more.
Place a “NB” on your sites, stating that no matter who, and/or what you recommend, people should be aware that you are not guaranteing the results, and caveat emptor always.
My 2 cents
Dear ERIC,
David pretty much said what i think, it’s just ashame that these (A#*HOLE’S) WALK AMONK’S US WHO ARE TRYING TO BETTER OURSELFVES WITH YOUR GREAT HELP AND ADVICE. THE MAN’S A FOOL HE’LL LOSE MORE THAN A $1,000.00 ODD $ THROUGH THE BAD PR. REMEMBER THE NAME PEOPLE NICHOLAS COLE AND LET US KNOW ANY OTHER RIP OFF’S YOU COME ACROSS. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
WES
Eric,
The legal side here seems pretty cut and dry. Simply recommending someone else’s services does not make you liable for their actions. The moral side of this is of course another matter. That part is between you and your conscience Eric. I would give you the same advice I give anyone facing a moral dilemma…What’s your gut telling you? You’re the one that must look yourself in the mirror each day. I sense you to be a man of integrity Eric. Follow your heart (whatever it’s saying) and you’ll make the right choice.
“What’s your gut telling you?”
That’s what my wife said. It’s a good question.
Well Eric, the fact you’re even entertaining this question, tells us there’s obviously a part of you feeling inclined to refund his money. And putting myself in your shoes, my gut would most likely be sending the same messages. Lets face it Eric…Who wants to feel responsible, either directly, or even indirectly, for someone else’s misfortune? I don’t, and I’m sensing you don’t either. If any part of your gut…aka (Heart/Conscience), is telling you to reimburse, then I think you should. Having said this, I’m sure you’ve already considered the can of worms you’re potentially opening by doing so. You may have to be much more selective about your recommendations in the future, clearly state disclaimers, etc.. It’s sad to think anyone would try taking advantage of you in the future because of this incident. But I’m sure the possibility is very real. Good luck
eric if i told you to marry my x-wife . she’s a great person and it does not work out. I guess i should be liable for everything since i mentioned it.. NOT
Eric,
Since you were not compensated or a direct representative of the person In question, you are not liable (my opinion, not legal opinion) to repay the person for his loss. First of all the person who was taken advantage of should have only made a small deposit prior to the work being done with the balance due upon approval of the final product. He should have had an iron clad written contract spelling out the fulfillment conditions. He should have arranged for an unbiased 3rd party to act as an arbitrator and to disperse the funds upon satisfactory completion. Even if he only had a contract, and had only made a deposit, he would still have legal recourse. Your recommendation was based on your experience, and not a guarantee of future performance.
This is exactly the situation for which we have small claims court. It is the responsibility of the injured party to make a claim for that amount against the copywriter. It has nothing to do with you.
Eric, it is stilla transaction cocluded between two parties and you only recommended the copywriters work! We must all take responsibility for the choices we make in life! If you recommended the lotto numbers to a stranger and he won, would he share that winnings with you?
Eric, you acted in good faith, based on your personal dealings with the writer. He/she has obviously takedn a different direction in dealing with clients-unbeknownst by you. It is unfortunate that these things happen in business - “let the buyer beware” your recommendation was an honest appraisal of work performed for you by the copywriter, not an attempt to defraud your client. You should not feel obligated to pay for someone elses poor performance. You may lose this client, but
if you pay, you “will” set a precedent you may regret.
Oh my!
The issue is with the copywriter and not you. I would not write a letter to you if I was in the same position. Perhaps you could phone the copywriter to help get the work done, that would be helpful and may solve the problem. But after the phone call that’s it you are out of it.
Best Regards,
Tim
he should pay him you might be rich and have lots of sites set up making you money but it’s not like that for every body you must be better then him in you world you should have asked then friends to pay you back but anyways i think he recoomended as a internet
Really…try writing that again!
LOL! this is a good example of computer generated content =)
I think you need a good copywriter!
Your argument is sound but consider this (and I am sure you know it well):
- a satisfied customer MIGHT tell a few folks about you
- an unhappy customer WILL tell more than 10 folks about you
Since you are an excellent marketer, my simple (read that as not knowing all of the circumstances of your relationship with this person) solution would be for you to offer to help him with the sales letter.
It shows your character to even bring this up. Thanks for reinforcing my faith in the precious few who actually have a heart and conscience in the snake oil land of internet marketing.
Eric, I’m sure that when you recomended this person you did so in good faith. otherwise your word would me crap and you would have to change your name everyother month. but you have integrity and know its smart and business savy to sell good products. you open a can of worms if you gave this guy his money back. I feel sorry for the guy !!! on the flip side if you felt bad, mabe give him half back on the down low.
That you published this post reflects well on your own ethics and moral base.
I can’t see how you are responsible for a refund. An honest recommendation for a product or service (especially copy writing)is not an express or implied money back guarantee for any future products/services from the same source.
Like you, I would really want to help. My first reaction would be to ask to see the copy provided and see if it could be improved, tweaked, completed, etc with a minimum of fuss.
But that comes from that sense of wanting to do the right thing, and to help… not from any dubious responsibility to guarantee someone else’s product/service.
I’ve recommended your site and trainings to a number of people, and own some of your products.
If I’m pleased with them and tell people so, I’m not legally or financially responsible if they buy any of your products and are dissatisfied. I’d still want to help somehow.
Thanks for the thought provoking post.
It will make me much more aware of the value proposition in anything I might recommend.
“I’ve recommended your site and trainings to a number of people, and own some of your products.”
Thanks!
You refunded me, Eric, when I requested one about a month ago. But that was because you promised a refund within 60 days of buying the product. But in this case, there’s no promise of a refund, I think, because your reader didn’t buy the service from you but from Cole. However, because you personally recommended Cole, you owe the reader an apology, which I’m sure you already did. Second, perhaps you should do a little arm twisting on Cole to make him refund the reader. That’s your only obligation, I think. To do the refund yourself from your own pocket is unfair for you–and then what? Let Cole go scot-free? He’d just be encouraged to do that again. And this is definitely a big lesson for us affiliates. We should think 10 times before personally recommending someone. At least, when you just place an affiliate banner or link, it’s “let the buyer beware” thing. If I place a bumper sticker that says “Marlboro Country,” and you believe that and smoke and get sick, you wouldn’t ask a refund from me, would you? Well, thanks for the info, Eric!
Eric you are one of very few that I hold in high regard online. I’m sorry to hear that you are involved in this debacle. Legally, you are not liable or at fault but you are ethically responsible for this specific transaction.
Why do I say this?
Simply because YOU chose to align yourself and endorse this specific copywriter. The fact that YOU endorsed this copywriter without being compensated, give this specific situation even more credibility. Think about, a affiliate marketer makes a suggestion and isn’t being paid if the buy- IMO this is the best reccomendation one can get for a product or service.
If you value your name and reputation online and I know you do, then I would suggest that you dig a litle deeper before your “endorse” another.
As far a refunding the whole amount, I think that is a bit excessively but you could barter something of equal value or perhaps write the victim a sales letter yourself. You are a pretty good copywriter yourself, right?
Make it right and you’ll have another fan raving about you, plus you’ll sleep good at night.
Just my 2 cents.
Hi Eric,
I dont consider you liable as you only reccomended the copywriter after being satisfied with what he had produced for you,
If as in his E mail he says that he contacted other people re their testimonials on site and got only one reply and a lot of bad URLs,then he should have investigated further,
BUYER BEWARE,
If you want to get a contractor to do work for you on your Home you normally sound out and get Quotes from multiple people and check their work,and you Should never Pay up front
Not your responsibility Eric
He should have checked him out more thoroughly,
not your fought.
Eric,
At some point in our lives we have made a decision that was far from good, your recommendation of this copywriter was in good faith and you are not accountable for another persons failures.
I have been in a similar situation, paying a software developer for products I never got.
The recommendation from another marketer did not have me ask for a refund from him, but just made me more wary of future dealings with others.
I still follow the marketer and have just taken it as another life experience!
Hello Eric,
I am a lawyer, however I’m not in your state, so I’m not extending legal advice. But this is my thought…
The FTC reg’s are not implicated here, since you made only a recommendation and appear to not be a true affiliate.
You do not have a contract with the person, since you merely extended a recommendation. At most, you could have liability on a “negligent referral” basis; however, this would be quite tenuous because you likely had no reason to believe the copywriter would not provide the agreed service.
In my opinion, you have no obligation ethically to provide a refund. You were not involved in the transaction between the copywriter and the purchaser.
Eric,
Certainly you are not legally responsible though all this could have a slight negative impact on your reputation. The customer is understandably upset but clearly should have pushed his claim earlier. He would seem to have try to get a refund from you as a last resort. It’s always vital to read the wording carefully as legality often comes down to exact wording and interpretation. An example of how a genuine mistake could cause problems at a later date is your statement that you initally wrote your recommendation in October 2010??
Michael
fixed the date, thanks
Eric, you have pretty well covered all aspects to consider in this situation.
There are pros and cons on both parties grievence, and justice for me is with a compromise.
Both parties have “learned valuable lessons” in business undertakings and best practices going forward.
I would go for 50% reimbursement for customer good will, and do better due diligence on any recommendation I personally publish.
Bob
Eric you are not responsible for someone who is not honest with their customers in a timely manner or fashion. Business is business and you are honest with me, and others, so don’t refund any money when there is no facts to back this situation up…
Hey Eric…
If we could get our money back from everyone who talked a good game then did not deliver,,,then I would start with the politicians!!!
We tend to dwell on the people who “screwed us” instead of focusing in on the millions of $$$$$ that are out there to be made by our honest efforts.
Mr “copywriter” might keep his little $1300…but that is all he will have. Go show him that he lost multiple 1,0000’s by not doing right by the next IM superstar.
Victory is sweet revenge!!!!!
I HAVE BEEN UNDER THE INPRESSIONS THAT SMALL COURTS HANDLE PROBLEMS LIKE THIS. THE CUSTOMER WOULD HAVE THE WORK PRODUCED, THE DATES AND THE AMOUNT PAID AND A RECORD OF THE RESULTS IT PRODUCED. THE INTERNET MARKETERS READING THESE SITES SHOULD BE MADE AWARE OF THE PERSON SO NOT TO BE TAKEN IN. bROKERS GIVE RECOMMENDATIONS EVERY DAY, BUT THEY ARE NOT HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR LOSSES. THEY ARE ONLY RECOMMENDATIONS GIVEN IN GOOD FAITH.
THIS PROBLEM IS BETWEEN THE BUYER AND SELLER NOT THE THIRD PARTY. yOUR TRUE FRIENDS WILL
SUPPORT YOU AS THEY KNOW YOUR BELIEFS AND
PHILOSOPHY.
I feel so sorry for him for being scammed like that, but you are not responsible, in any way. What would have happened if Dragutin paid Cole the money, Cole produced a great sales letter, then Dragutin for some reason got Paypal or his credit card to refund him his money. Would you now be liable to Cole? Also, you (among others) recommend Elance and other places like that. Would you be responsible if and when any of those deals go sour? I think not. I believe that you are not involved in this. Like I said, I really feel sorry for what happened, but it was not you that did this.
“What would have happened if Dragutin paid Cole the money, Cole produced a great sales letter, then Dragutin for some reason got Paypal or his credit card to refund him his money. Would you now be liable to Cole?”
Very interesting reversal.
Hi Eric:
Very pity it’s happened to you. Everybody must understand, internet is the media of unknown. When we talk to a person, we don’t know whoever he or she is. What I mean is, if Eric’s has given him/her an idea or suggestion don’t make it totally believed to that idea.We need to firstly investigate the person background and his performance in dealing with writing articles. What we should do is visiting his blog and asks any person that has already involved with that writer. I think the possible way is contacting that writer and ask for the refund. It’s unfair to get the refund from Eric’s. Let him be our lecturer. I think he is the best to follow. Only,on our behalf is, we’ve no time to read and implementing his ideas.
Lastly, if there is no sincere response from the writer, you(not Eric) better contact the Interpol. The personal contact can be traced via his/her latest server hosting. I hope this type of hype don’t ever happen again, since it will impact other people mind to make business on the internet. That is my humble say. Thank Eric,bye
You don’t owe him a refund - as individuals we have to take responsibility for our own decisions and transactions.
You made a recommendation in good faith. The customer still needs to do his own due diligence and agree on payment terms.
With that said, if you choose to look after the customer in some way, that would be a very nice gesture on your part.
If I was in your shoes I would offer the customer half of what he lost as a gesture of good will because I know what it’s like to be ripped off too.
I might not offer him cash though… the original intent was to get a sales letter written. If I could find another great copywriter and pay them half the amount to write the sales-letter and maybe offer an hour or two of marketing expertise to tweak it and get that customer going… that would be more valuable.
If you just hand over cash they’re still going to be no closer to getting their site up and will still be bitter about internet marketers and copywriters.
So maybe give the guy some one on one time to help him see results from his online business efforts. It would make a great case study you can share your own customers.
He should have checked the copywriter out more
thoroughly, not your fought. thanks for asking.
HI Eric, I have been a listener to your suggestions for many months, having said that I
am fairly new to internet marketing, but an”old dog” I value your opinions but do NOT jump headlong into everything you suggest I am very careful with spending any money I am investing, And if we don’t look at what we spend as an investment EXPECTING a return we
should be doing something else, when we invest we do it carefully, thoughtfully, if we bought
every offer that we got by email or “VALUED
SUGGESTION” we should not call ourselves “MARKETERS” but “FAVORITE CUSTOMERS”
on my free download site I offer double your money back, and will stand by that till the
moon don’t shine anymore..it’s FREE DOWLOADS…
YOU OWE NOTHING except an apology for not knowing the outcome before the problem occurred
,in many states the man coming to you is illegal because it is considered involving a third party in a dept, “BUYER BEWARE”
……..Bob
I think this is good warning to ALL those who promote and sell others work to first use it fully yourself before promoting it. I will not buy any product or service from any affiliate unless they have used it themselves.
Eric i think in this instance you should not take any responsibility but maybe offer them some ‘free’ sections of your personal offerings. Doug
If a commission was not envolved, I do not
think you should have to refund any money.
Also it sounds like you made an honest recommendation.
Warren
N. Cole burned a lot of people. My understanding was he was offering unlimited sales letters for a couple hundred bucks a month… a ridiculous and unfeasible offer in my opinion, but considering Cole’s offering of very, very cheap salesletters, how did Dragutin rack up a bill of $1344?
The writing was on the wall a long time ago with the N. Cole sales copy issue. I read about it on the WarriorForum, though I never purchased his services or wanted to.
With owning/running a business comes responsibility for one’s actions… and yes, one’s gullibility. Furthermore, the escalation of the project into a $1344 one, when Cole was known for cranking out fast-and-cheap letters is bewildering.
You recommended a $197 salesletter based on your own experience hiring Cole to write one at that price. How the job escalated to one 6x what you paid I have no idea, but it does seem a bit like the client lost control of the project and is looking for a scapegoat.
I don’t blame him for trying though…
Peace.
yeah. I did mention in my lesson that Nicholas was currently charging $300 - $1000 at the time of the lesson ($300 for a sales letter, with higher priced packages if included with autoresponders, squeeze pages ,etc). But I wondered the same thing too when I saw the $1344. Makes me think Nicholas had some bills to pay…
U r not responsible u did not know nick was a crook u can’t give someone a refund based on another persons mistake
You don’t owe him a cent.
Hi Eric! I agree with Tim Ackley and I’m not a lawyer either, but I think that a sympathetic hand, helping him to go to the service where this jerk advertises his wares, and getting their help blacklisting him would be a nice thing for you to do. If you earned an affilliate fee for recommending him, that gets a bit dicey. Also,someone could go the the extent of contacting all known services where he might try to register, and warn them of his (non-)activity Shut him down completely. That will get his attention for sure. Anyway, Good Luck, and Keep Up The Good Work! best Regards! Stan
Eric,
I don’t know anything about Internet Marketing, but this blog as a whole seems to be a cry for attention, or a solicitation to co-sign how you’ve been a victim. Take responsibility. How much research and investigative reports did you do on the individual that you referred or endorsed? If I go to my primary doctor and ask for a referral to a specialist, I trust his referral. If I see the specialist, and get ripped off…as a consumer, I’m likely to go back to my primary physician and request damages.
Another thing to consider: How much is your time worth? There’s already 60+ comments. The time it would take you to read all of our opinions and come to a decision may be worth more than just paying the guy. Most people won’t take your kindness for weakness.
Last but not least, I doubt any of us are lawyers. See a lawyer and find out what you are legally responsible and liable for. Use this experience as a learning lesson for your business development.
Well Eric, this is quite a quandary.
As I see it, it would be the responsibility of the buyer to do his part of, what is the term, “Due Diligence” and find out all he could regarding what he was about to purchase and from whom, no matter who made the recommendation.
Also, some sort of written contract might have been in order for the amount of money that was about to change hands spelling out what the person was going to do for the money being paid.
That being said, I do not think he has any legal grounds to come to you for the money except it may be a last ditch effort to re coop his loss.
Should you have any thoughts as to reimburse him anything you would be opening the door for more people blaming you for any bad decisions they may have made working in this business.
Which brings me to this, I lost money last year…. just kidding.
It seems that the train of thought as far as answers are pretty much unanimous, from what I read.
Best of luck!
Eric Hendrix
Where you went wrong was in not referring the copywriter through a outsourcing company like ODesk or Rent-a-coder. That way you would have been protected through the guidelines of these outsourcing companies.
Eric, I love these videos of yours thanks so much.
in my humble opinion:
1. you are NOT responsible / legally liable
2. the right and ethical thing to do may be:
offer some type of product/service AND perhaps also recommend something on that person’s behalf on a ONE-TIME basis, say, an Advertisement of some sort for a few months to give him a chance to recoup.
Hi Eric, Thanks for the offer to respond to this.
I know you have high standards.
1. Why recommend somebody without checking him or her out?
2. Do you realize that we your readers trust your judgment and direction on many things concerning internet marketing so therefore accept your recommendations in good faith?
3. What have you learned from this?
4. Does Dragutin accept any responsibility himself?
I don’t believe this brings the industry down just those concerned, my advice is move away from this standoff ASAP
Thanks for all your help
Have an awesome day
Noel
1- i did check him out first.
2- yes I do realize, which is why I wrote this post and solicited your opinion
Hi Eric,
This is unfortunate for the guy who got ripped off, but you are not liable.
You made a recommendation based on the information you had at the time.
Let us look at another example.
If I go to McDonald’s and have a triple cheeseburger with extra large fries and a large coke and I recommend this to all my friends and they all get fat or die of a heart attack, does that mean I need to compensate them or pay back the cost of all the meals they have purchased at McDonald’s due to my recommendation.
That is only one example.. I am sure you could come up with dozens more..
Having said that.. although you are under absolutely no obligation to pay back this person.. you may feel bad about it. So.. IF you financially can afford it.. then make a token part payment to him as a kind gesture because you feel for the guy who got ripped off..or maybe offer some personal coaching in lieu .. Just my 2 cents.
Troy,
There is an interesting (and slightly bewildering) difference however!
What if you had made that recommendation for McDonald’s under an affiliate relationship?
In other words, what if you had accepted money from McDonald’s to recommend them to your friends? Then, that just doesn’t simply stay an ordinary recommendation. That becomes “Paid Advertisement”.
Also, irrespective of whether McDonald’s finally pays you the commission or not, there is this “Intent” of receiving payment (”consideration”, as they call it in law) that the courts might consider. And that is the concern!
I find no one here advising Eric to first talk to his attorney on this matter. Just simply saying “No Eric, you are not responsible” might make him oblivious to the dangers ahead. Yes, we understand that Eric has no fault here, but will the law understand that? Let me tell you, the law has a more discerning way of looking at things, and it will not just simply take the route of emotions. And hence it is important to employ our head rather than just our heart. I think taking this matter too lightly in the way that most here are advising Eric to do could have repurcussions later on.
What may provide us some relief is that I feel Eric has two very strong points in his favour -
- he has tried the product himself before recommending it.
- he has removed the copywiter from his list of recommended people the moment he has come to learn of his unscrupulous ways.
However, I would still advise Eric to seek the opinion, advice and assistance of a competent attorney on this matter before reaching any decision.
Thanks,
Reed.
Hi Reed,
You bring up some good level headed points.
However, If this were to go to court and the judge ruled against Eric, the precedent the judge would be setting for anyone recommending anything under any affiliate sales umbrella would have huge implications for the world offline and online.
Every case will be different, but I just don’t think a judge would like to be that stupid. Although, stranger things have happened..lol Like getting paid money because you spill hot coffee over yourself and sue the cafe owner.. gees.
Hi Reed,
Again very good points.
I think a lawyer should be consulted yes however, If I recommended Mcdonalds under an affiliate relationship and I had tried the product and it was great.. My recommendation is for that exact same product. IF Mcdonalds did not serve that exact same product or did not deliver that product at all then Mcdonalds is at fault. I only know what is in front of me at any given point.
Also, I would not recommend something that I know would be detrimental to others.
So, Eric recommended something that he believed would at the time, be repeated as a service and with the same quality as he had gotten before. However, if that service has changed then he can not be held liable, because the service he recommended was not the same service as what was given to others later on. Hence, the copywriter is liable.
I feel this would be the argument in a court of law.
I am no lawyer, but if I were, I would fight tooth and nail for Eric and go after the copywriter for ALL legal costs.
Hi Troy,
Thanks for your reply.
I have one question however.
You liked what McDonalds offered, and you recommended it to others. But for a moment just consider the two situations -
(i) You recommend McDonalds WITHOUT taking any money from them (or WITHOUT any intent of taking money from them), and
(ii) You recommend McDonalds FOR money (or WITH an intent of taking money from them).
The first one is for free, so its what I call a “Pure Recommendation”; i.e. a recommendation made with solely the benefit of the seeker of information in mind, and without any intent of personal gain.
The second however, is somewhat reverse. Here, the intention of personal gain is established; however, the intention of benefitting the seeker of information has to be proved.
See the dilemma !
However, as I’ve said before, what might come to Eric’s support in this situation is that -
- he has tried the product himself before recommending it.
- he has removed the copywiter from his list of recommended people the moment he has come to learn of his unscrupulous ways.
So thats how I’m looking at the situation. And that also is the reason I feel it might be better for Eric to consult a lawyer before making a decision.
Anyway, those were my two cents. Hope you like it.
Thanks,
Have a Great Day,
Reed.
The one big mistake I see, is that Dragutin should not have paid the copywritter upfrount. This would have solved the majority of the problems Dragutin had with him.
Both of you have learned a very good lesson, and by bringing this out in the open, others will also learn it to. Be sure of the people you deal with. I say you do what you think is right Eric, you have to live with it.
Eric,
You did not enter into a contract with either of these two in this transaction. I agree that there should not be any liability to you. It is clear that this person who paid over a thousand dollars for an internet marketing letter - and is completely unsatisfied - is feeling pain. Perhaps, this is the “life lesson” he did not want, but received. However, I also agree that there may be something gained by offering something to this individual that won’t cost you very much, and may TURN A NEGATIVE INTO A POSITIVE. Just think about it …. in every problem lies an opportunity. This is a great opportunity for you. He is supposed to be more interested in the letter and his marketing success than in a refund. A good marketing letter or some type of marketing assistance will help him achieve his goals. While I think the money would make him feel better, and I think he will be wiser how he spends it the next time, … it is the expert marketing help that he needs that is missing. He may be a tough customer, but I think there may be an excellent solution to help him in some way that you are able to. I have total faith that you will do something creative to turn this darkness into light.
Dave
Keep it strictly business Eric,you will open up Pandora’s box if you give in.
If I were you and I could afford to pay him, I would. Here’s why I say this. You endorsed this fellow so this has a reflection on your reputation. I am not sure one interaction justifies an endorsement unless it clearly states I did business one time and here is what happened. But on the hand, the consumer has obligation to investigate the provider. I recently a 500 dollar product through a well know affiliate, his recommendation played a big part in my decision.
I think comes down to really knowing who you recommend - maybe your rules are not strict enough.
I don’t think leagally or even ethically you have an obligation to pay this money but as I said if it were me and I could afford it I would- because my reputation is on the line. Personally I have a bought a lot through your link based on your recommendation, nothing that expensive but I wouldn’t expect you to refund me in I were not satisfied but I would certainly let you know.
Maybe the keyword here is grace.
Dave
While I feel the pain of this person I think he is out of the bounds of common sense to request a refund from you based on your explanation of your good experience. If you were in cohorts with Nicholas then yes you would and should be liable. Aside from that, you have no control of the circumstances and are not obliged in any way ethically or morally to issue a refund especially since you did not profit from it.
If you had profited then I agree at least a refund of what you earned should be refunded to the person.
Yes a lot of money is lost for this person but in the end it is their ultimate responsibility to do their own due diligence and one recommendation should not be the sole reason.
As a good copywriter I was not surprised at the communications nor the product that was furnished. Definitely that is a very bad sales letter. It looks as though he applied a very cheap outline template from someone else’s work and pretty poorly. I must say that the communications seem to lack clarity which seems to be both parties faults.
The other issue is that this person paid it all upfront when the standard is half up front the rest upon completion. That is just plain naiveté to pay all the money upfront.
Some lessons are just plain hard learned and this seems to be one of those, unfortunately.
Hi Eric
In my opinion you have absolutely NO obligation to pay the refund or part thereof to Dragutin. Although, I do understand the frustration and helplessnes he must feel, only he and Nicholas Cole are responsible for sorting the issue out. Your only obligation is to communicate with Nicholas Cole that you cannot endorse this kind of business practise and that he must resolve the issue, since you once recommended his service. Dragutin has his share of responsibility, as he should not have allowed this to drag on for so long until the PayPal refund deadline had passed and/or put more pressure on his credit card company to work on his behalf and return the funds.
Unbelievable that Nicholas Cole would allow this issue to escalate to such a level, he obviously wants to run his business into the ground as he has already lost a whole bunch of potential customers from this threat and who knows where else this is going!
Cheers,
Peter
If I recommend a person to do a certain job.
Then I consider 2 things.
1) The personality
2) The knowledge and experience
If the two things are matching my needs and if I am not talking in general. Then I have a responsibility, of course.
But, I am never responsible of the contract and the work the two parties are agreed on.
I am not responsible for the work or the outcome of such a job that has been done.
Finally:
I have recommended that person out of my present knowledge at that time. I do not know the parties upcoming contracts and idea of the final result.
Regards
ANders Jacobsson
My recommendation is:
Do not act in any way because You Do Not Know All Details In This Contract.
The 50% crossed my mind as well.
Dave
No, it’s not your fault, you just made recommendation in good faith and that’s it. Dragutin should realize that he is solely responsible for his every action and no one else even if someone recommends him. In my opinion, there is no such thing as 100% guarantee.
Eric
You are certainly not liable. You acted in good faith, based on your personal experience with this copywriter. You have no way of controlling the quality of work that other people provide. You can only hope that they will maintain the high standard that you experienced. No, you do not owe this gentleman a refund for someone else’s dishonesty. Keep strong Eric, you have my full support on this.
You do not owe anything, the money amount is not the issue, how many of us have recommended a movie we thought was good only to have a friend say it was the worst movie they had ever seen. If you don’t Agee I know an excellent DR his name is Kavorkian he is really good at what he does
Critics don’t get suied if they recomend a resturaunt someone gets food poisioning from.
I have to agree with the consensus that you are not liable legally on this matter.
As far as the ethical or right thing to do… well, if you have some way of helping him end up with some good copywriting just because you want to help him, and you have the means to do so, then if it were me, I would probably try to help in some way.
I feel badly for him and I don’t think I see a way for him to get his monies back. But perhaps with some assistance from you and/or other sources, he can make back that money in the form of sales, etc.
I personally would be devastated to lose that kind of money, but if someone stepped up to the plate and helped me “make” some money so I didn’t feel the loss so dramatically, I think I would be the most grateful and loyal person forever and some of my confidence in others would be restored.
And that’s my sort of final answer…
Christine
If he bought through your affiliate link, then I think you could offer to reimburse him for what you would have received (even if you didn’t) He may have taken your recommendation then bought through another link or gone straight to the copywriter direct. I do not think you have any obligation, legal or moral if he didn’t buy through your link.
Hi Eric,
I cannot see how you could possibly be held responsible for giving a recommendation. This writer gave you good service, albiet it sounds like it was only on one occasion, but that is no reason to believe that they would do otherwise for someone else.
I’ve given many recommendations in my life, but that does not make me responsible if the other person didn’t have the same experience as I did. As many people have already posted, the issue is between those two parties and has nothing to do with you. How were you to know that Cole wasn’t going to deliver? You couldn’t.. and had no reason to believe he would not based on your experience.
I was once referred to a dentist by a friend of mine when I was living in Sedona, and my experience was that this guy should have gone to architectural school rather than dentistry because he totally botched my root canal. That doesn’t mean my friend is responsible however.. it just makes his experience with this dentist different than mine was.
I could get into how like attracts like and the Law of Attraction here because that has a great deal to do with it.. but I won’t. Suffice it to say that you are not responsible whatsoever.
Cheers bro..
John
“my experience was that this guy should have gone to architectural school rather than dentistry”
LOL… I’m sorry!
thanks.
i agree with you about these,that is what i have in mind to tell.
thanks again.
okeke joshua
Hi Eric,
While I feel very sorry for the customer I think he is coming back at you out of frustration with the copywriter. $1344.00 loss is awful, but continuing to concentrate on it could be losing him more money. I don’t think you are responsible for the loss, the bad service, or a refund. I’m sure Eric if you could do anything to get Nicolas Cole to give this customer what he paid for then that would be my suggestion.
No legally you are not liable, principally because you did not receive any consideration or payment from this vendor.Ethically, after you have found that this is a legititmate contention, you may offer to pay for half of his cost and have your legal counsel go after the accused vendor. I am positive that your legal aide would not initiate any serious course of action without being 100% certain that you have a case and that you can collect the money involved, when you collected you will give your reader the full refund.
This will accomplish many things,one: you will regain credibility and caress “karma”in the right way,two you will set a presidence with the other vendors that you recommend,not to take advantage of customers,or face your wrath, three you will get a good reputation all around… as you have more than demonstrated by giving away a ton of valuable information all gratis…that you are truly a man of great character. Your greatest expectation would be to find out how the universal law of “karma” will reward you…and it will reward you.
Eric,
stand strong - yet compassionate as possible - as you are not responsible for the unfortunate business between the complainer and the copywriter. You recommended him based on a $197 sales letter transaction that was a successful transaction. After you became aware of the discord, you made it known to your subscribers. You did the right thing.
You should not pay him.
That would be the same as someone trying to sue me because Tylenol cured my headache and I told them that Tylenol worked great for me…but yet subsequently made them ill after they tried it based on my experience.
I can’t see you taking responsibility for this. Your recommendation was reporting your good experience. If the Advertising Industry was liable for every product advertised, the industry would have been shut down years ago.
I understand the customers frustration, but he has to understand his ultimate responsibility for his own actions (or lack of timely action) and take it as a learning experience not to be repeated. Sometimes tuition for such a lesson is high.
I can’t blame him for trying and you may lose him as a customer, but he made the deal.
Eric I got one question, why did he spend so much at the start.I don’t feel you are obilgated to pay for someone else that didn’finish his work.This is a hard way for a person to learn a lesson but I have learn that you check a person out even if your own brother told you he was good. I think that I would have to have a contract sign by him in my hands.
When I was working as an Independent Financial Adviser, I was responsible for the advice given to my clients.
I could supply the customer with all sorts of disclaimers at the point of sale, which were their to protect me as an adviser to prevent future litigation.
However if it could be deemed that we had not carried out proper due diligence for the recommended product and this included whether the client bought the contract or not. I was liable.
If carried into internet marketing, it would mean that everytime you send emails to prospects making a recommendation that they need to sign a disclaimer stating they didn’t want to take your advices if they chose not to buy the product.
Because sometime in the future,it might have proved beneficial if they had and you didn’t sell the benefits hard enough. Sounds farcical but true!
In your case a newpaper that allows an advertiser to advertise is responsible for the advert it runs, for example a product that is not described properly and is not fit for purpose. Is liable under mail order protection schemes.
Hence the big shift in rules over postings with ebay, amazon etc about products it sells where it will sue whoever places mis-described items and non delivered etc.
The law in most cases states that the claimant should pursue whoever he paid the money to and if not rectified to his satisfaction, then pursue the recommending party.
In your case if the copywriter could prove that you should not have recommended him, to undertake a certain project, then you would be liable.
The whole thing is becoming fudged and the future points to if you gave a stranger in town direction and he subsequently became lost, that he would claim for lose of time and shoe leather.
My own feeling is this, if I phoned a plumber that advertised on Yell.com and he did a rotten job, I wouldn’t have paid him, if I had I’d sue him and contact Yell about the damage to their reputation that someone so shoddy being on their books could cause.
But I wouldn’t hold them liable.
These are just my views and I’m not qualified to make legal representation, but I enjoy a good rant though.
Hope both of you reach a satifactory resolve amicabily.
Good rant. It brings up some interesting points that I’ve been thinking about. As some have mentioned, courts of law often do not take a website’s “terms of service” as being a legal and valid agreement. So the only way to really protect myself would be to get a signed agreement from each subscriber. While that would be virtually impossible for a free blog, I could change my business model and cater to a smaller group of people in a closed area.
In all honesty, there are simply too many of such crap providers out there. I can understand why he wants to seek refund but he should be yelling at his card company and PayPal for it. I had similar problems with PayPal, it was a straight no from them. We cant boycott them as they are too big. Maybe a petition to PayPal for their practice would be good.
You should not feel morally responsible. I feel you do a good job on the way you recommend resources. No commission, no money!
Well, I guess I am the odd “man” out here. I think that you are ethically responsible, but not legally for obvious reasons. But because you endorsed the copywriter, even if it was in good faith, people look to your advice to get the answers that we do not have. Nicholas Cole was awful to this Dragutin (sp?) character, and was a breach of anything you wrote about him. As much as it’s a shame, I do feel you are ethically responsible. I am sorry. I believe you’re the only honest man I have ever read on the net, but I think if you endorse a person through one of your programs, you should be able to stand by that viewpoint. That being said, legally this would just be another “passing the buck” case in which “X” robs “Z” because “Y” told him “Z” had a lot of money lying around the house. “Y” is morally responsible for his actions, but cannot be legally bound just because “X” seized an opportunity to get something for nothing based on gossip or opinion.
The fact is Nicolas Cole owes Mr Dragutin the money. I think an apology from you along with an explanation should suffice between you and Dragutin. But I am happy to see that you’ve stopped endorsing Nicholas Cole. I know you said not to bash anyone, but I feel I am an honest gal, too. And he was a very dirty player in this picture. He puts everything that everyone is looking for in question. And that “everything” is honesty..a rare gem online. What a shame.
Anne,
To follow your view to another application, let’s consider that you recommend a doctor to a friend and that friend goes to the doctor. The doctor prescribes a medication which takes the life of your friend. Are you responsible for the death of your friend?
Or say you recommend a mechanic to a friend and the mechanic does damages to your friends car. Does that make you liable for the damages and you should pay to have your friends car fixed?
I think not.
You are not liable to pay this person any money. You are responsible for checking the quality of the people you recommend.
Eric,
You are not responsible, nor should be held responsible for the actions of the copywriter. You recommended him in good faith, having had a good experience yourself. The copywriter himself should finish the work or give the refund.
You are not responsible for the Dragon’s loss.
But then again how much is your name worth?
Eric, You are not responsible for Nicholas Cole’s actions or making restitution for what he did to Dragutin.
You recommended Cole in good faith and had no reason to think Cole would pull a fast on him.
Dragutin should be taking Cole to court and taking what ever steps are necessary to see Cole never gets work again, not trying to lay a guilt trip on you.
If I were him, I’d file complaints with the BBB, the State’s Attorney, Rip-off report, different forums and so on.
Dragutin needs to be measured and specific in his language of course.
A friend of mine was scammed by an insurance company and contacting the different states consumer’s boards, State’s Attorney and so on eventually led to recovery because the negative publicity was too much.
I hope Dragutin gets his.
Eric,
Recommendations are just that! Nick treated you right when you dealt with him and that is what your opinion is based on. If Nick knew who you were in the IM world he may have put more of an effort to please you than he would on an unknown IM but…as he got more referrals from you he began to fall behind in his schedule and instead of pushing these out in 2 days it was taking him 2 weeks or longer causing undue grief to the customer. The other unknown is how they conducted business with each other! Obviously Dragutin must have not put money in an escrow such as guru.com or rent–coder does to protect their customers from exactly what happened here. Eric you don’t have to question your ethics or morality! Everything you’ve said or done in the past is way above reproach and all of the good things far surpasses some mistakes you may have had. If Dragutin can’t figure out HOW to get and use the information he should hire a mentor to spoon feed him. You don’t owe him jack! Life’s a bi%$# and then you die!
Eric,
You are not legally or morally responsible for this persons troubles.
He made several errors of doing business online.
He should have checked this person on his own, should not have paid him upfront, and should not have let it drag on so long.
I know you are feeling much compassion for this person, but you would probably be opening yourself up to many more people trying to get you make refunds to them for problems of their own making.
I would say that you have the same responsibility as any one who recommends any service, none! It is a classic case of FOUCAULT’S PENDULUM Swinging uncontrollably
I think people should take responsibility for the things they do. It`s just like suing cigarette companies for you smoking their product that you knew was going to kill you.
Hey Eric,
It was an authoritative recommendation based on what you knew at the time. No one expects (or, at least, should expect) an authority (which I feel you are) to be right at all times. If they do, they are delusional.
That’s one of the reasons why I hate it when people (marketers) use the catch phrases - free, simple, easy and instant as in “become an Instant Expert.” Just a little pet peeve of mine that I like to bring to the forefront reminding people that there are no absolutes - there are just too many variables to take into consideration.
Therefore, anytime I buy something I put the onus of responsiblity on myself regardless of who made the recommendation. It’s called personal responsibility.
Although, I must admit - it never hurts to present your case and ask. You may get lucky.
Regardles of what goes on here, it’s your call and, frankly, I wouldn’t post the outcome here other then to say that the matter has been resolved.
Eric…
Your recommendation was an opinion… not a promise. Here is a what I consider a close example.
Some time ago Oprah gave an opinion about the tainted meat that was being sold here in the USA.. Stating.. “I personally would NOT eat the meat in the country right now” (paraphrasing.
The result was a large loss of sales by the beef industry which resulted in a class action lawsuit against Oprah.
Oprah won hands down as it was her OPINION… not a conclusion based on scientific fact.
Not sure if that is a close enough example to go by … but close. Oprahs opinion was a negative factor while yours is based on the positive.
ah, the wisdom of Oprah!.. jk
Eric,
Are you kidding me? I think you know the answer to your predicament. You don’t need random readers to give their unbiased opinon so that you can make a calculated decision on this very simple case. Ok, here is the bottom line. When entering into a contract or agreement either in writing or verbal, there must be “consideration given” in order for a party to be liable. You are a third party in the matter. You neither gave consideration nor received it. The two parties involved are the ones that have to settle this.
As a third party, you are acting on good faith
experience and are NOT liable for the actions of another solely on recommendation alone, no matter how strong the recommendation is. It is the injured party, in this case, the receiver of the letter to act against the copywriter to procure refund. No court in the land would find you liable for any third party recommendations. The operative word here is “consideration”. You did not receive any commissions or kickbacks from this transaction. Therefore, rest assured my good friend, you are free and clear from every point of view. You are a very wise and clever man, I must admit.
. lol . I wish I had studied computers in college, I would be right there along with you. However, starting out now in mid-career to try to get an online business going is to say the least quite an undertaking..
I do enjoy, however, your videos, and applaude you for the effort. You give your subscribers a wealth of valuable information that others charge quite a penny for. You do it for free!You have taught me many things about online marketing which I actually use in traditional
business. Thanks buddy.
Keep up the amazing work.
P.S. Prior to following you, I checked you out totally. I found absolutely nothing negative written about you anywhere. You are one of the very few internet markets that upholds the respect that you do.
You are great Eric.
your friend,
Ari
Thanks Ari. You are right, I “don’t need random readers to give their unbiased opinon so that you can make a calculated decision on this very simple case.”
However, I do care about what my readers think about this. It affects the future of how I do business and communicate with you. And look at the very next comment:
“I like your having posted the issue with your readers.”
I like your having posted the issue with your readers. Several matters need to be considered to determine the legal liability for the actions of another person.
1. Is there a contract or agreement that arises from your “endorsing” another service provider? My answer is no. You were not aware of the existence of the agreement between your reader and the person you endorsed and not in a position to control or police it. The amount seems large so I will assume there may have been some performance provided by Nicolas Cole to Dragutin. Dragutin has a claim for performance by Nicolas Cole even if his right to contest it has expired with the credit card company (typically 30 days). Having failed to contest it within the required time is a factor weighing against Dragutin, but he can still seek to enforce his claim, by persuasion or by seeking enforcement in small claims court of the state involved, although that may not be very practical, because of the need to appear in court and get jurisdiction over the Mr. Cole. In conclusion on point 1, you have no liability to Dragutin, but he does have a right to make his claim against Mr. Cole.
2. Is there a moral obligation for you to reimburse Dragutin because you “endorsed” Mr. Cole? I do not believe you do under the circumstances. I believe you acted under appropriate moral guidelines by ceasing to feature Mr. Cole on your website. You put him on your website because of a good experience with him. Now that there has been a bad experience with him, it is right to remove him. It appears that although you named him on your website, it was less than an endorsement. I would also recommend that you put a disclaimer on your website for persons you feature there so that your readers know that you are not assuming any responsibility for arrangements made between your readers and persons who are featured on your website. Conclusion: You are not legally or morally responsibility to repay Dragutin for services he did not receive from someone else. Your well reasoned analysis does the job well, but I like your having involved your readers in the analysis.
Darian Andersen
Eric,
I do not feel you are liable for any refund. Your initial recommendation was because of a positive personal experience. Then when you heard about that person not treating the customers fairly, you pulled your recommendation.
Since they waited so long to file complaints, they are probably out the money.
If you think you might be able to help him get his money back from the copywriter, then make some suggestions.
This type of thing is scarey for those of us wanting to get started in Affiliate Marketing using PayPal and ClickBank, etc.
How many Affiliates actually personally use all the products they market??
Are they liable if their referral gets scammed?
I know just how you feel. I am so tired of all of the empty promises. I think that if these sites are legitimate, they should let someone try out the product and then pay for it if it works. I have yet to find a product that pays!!
This is one of the biggest reasons why most people fail online…or anything for that matter.
Did the university you attended let you try out college and then pay only if you actually got a good solid job like everyone promised you you would get if you went to school?
Wow Jason thats a poor analogy if I ever saw one. Comparing an IM product to a college education is rediculous.
First off I’ve never seen any college promotion pamphlet or heard any college recruiter claiming you’ll get rich or even a good paying job. They are smarter than that they do however use statistics like “on the average college graduates earn XX amount more than high school graduates.”
But IM sales pages are another whole ball of wax. You don’t have to step one foot out on the Internet to find a dozen or more claiming you’ll make riches overnight, in the next hour even.
Comparing a college promo pamphlet or recruiters claims to the claims of an IM product sales letter is like they say “comparing apples to oranges.”
Dear Eric,
As an appreciative follower and current customer, I must say I deeply appreciate your transparency in this situation. As a former judge and attorney, I have a studied opinion on the matter. And, as a dedicated internet and affiliate marketer, I felt the issues raised were so urgent that I paused my project on a deadline to enter my response.
The internet is truly the great equalizer. Through this amazing vehicle anyone, of any background, can gain access to mountains of information on any topic, create a business for little to no monetary investment, and even communicate directly with someone on the other side of the world at the click of a mouse. Truly the world at your fingertips.
However, as with any privilege, with this brilliant communication portal comes an accompanying responsibility. Although I should state that this is my personal opinion, with no attempt to issue a legal opinion, based on the facts as I understand them I would agree with your assessment that you do not \”legally\” owe Mr. Dragutin a refund. Since you apparently made a reasonable recommendation for services based on your personal knowledge of past performance, and you did not receive any compensation for the recommendation, I believe your connection to the transaction would not be significant enough to demand that you cure the wrong that unquestionably occurred.
My hat is off to you for your character in taking your analysis one step further, to the true heart of the matter, the moral ground. I am reminded of Portia\’s speech in the Merchant of Venice:
\”The quality of mercy is not strained. It blesses him who gives, and him who receives.The quality of mercy is not strain\’d, It droppeth, as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath: it is twice bless\’d; It blesseth him that gives, and him that takes. \’Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes The throned monarch better than his crown; His sceptre shows the force of temporal power, The attribute to awe and majesty, Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings; But mercy is above this sceptred sway, It is enthroned in the hearts of kings, It is an attribute to God himself; And earthly power doth then show likest God\’s When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, though justice be thy plea, consider this— That in the course of justice, none of us Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy; And that same prayer, doth teach us all to render The deeds of mercy.\”
Do you have an obligation to issue a refund? In my opinion, no. Would it set an unwarranted negative precedent for you to pay cash in this situation? Yes.
In almost every situation, there is always a third solution, which is what I would propose. Mr. Dragutin paid for copywriting services. You are a copywriter, and you possess a library of valuable copywriting content. You clearly have a merciful heart toward the situation, as any of us with compassionate hearts understand and admire.
Why not give this kind gentlemen some of your valuable services, as your response in integrity to a shameful situation? This, I repeat, would be a GIFT, offered to make a wrong situation right; mercy to the innocent, and a strong moral statement and example on your part.
Frequently life can create magic out of misfortune…perhaps there is a reason you and this gentleman intersected.
One parting note: the internet is also the finest democracy, and ultimately shines light on truth and right behavior. Perhaps some of Nicholas Cole\’s friends can impress upon him the importance of addressing mistakes head-on, with remorse, given the terrible blow to his character and reputation that this very public matter has created. This would be an appropriate time, and an appropriate forum, to make amends.
Blessings to you, Eric, and to you, Mr. Dragutin.
And yes, to you as well, Nicholas Cole. You\’ve apparently done good work before; that is evidence that you can do the right thing.
p.s. WOW! 93 comments by the time I was able to post…when I started there was only 1!!
LOL, that’s what a lawyer gets for being long-winded!
That is a great solution.
“As a former judge and attorney, I have a studied opinion on the matter. And, as a dedicated internet and affiliate marketer, I felt the issues raised were so urgent that I paused my project on a deadline to enter my response.”
Thank you for weighing in on the matter!
Eric, This is it! Justice seasoned by mercy… perfect. . the high road, no regrets only the gift. Nothing else matters.
In Him,
Melissa
Hi Lory,
I just had to tell you that reading your comment to Eric was the highlight of my day. The world is truly at our fingertips today, via the internet, isn’t it?!
We can venture into the world each day able to drink the knowledge of yesterday, today and tomorrow long before afternoon tea!
I so enjoyed the eloquence of your writing; your insightful advice, indeed the art.
Regards,
Melissa
In my opinion The Copywriter is liable for the damages incurred on you (Eric) as well as the displeased Client.
In the future more research should be done before considering promoting/endorsing a product or service as to avoid situations as such.
I hope in the end that the Client be fully reimbursed by the Copywriter for inconveniencing him.
To you Eric be more vigilant with products/services that you endorse/promote on your site as to recommend to your readers in the future.
Good luck in the future and as for the Copywriter he should be more careful with who messes with, he might not be so lucky next time around.
Don`t mess with people good name
I don’t think you are liable. I agree with you that if it were a smaller amount of money, it would be worth it just to make the problem go away. But, this is a chunk of money. I think the other person should do the refund.
Some of the best advice ever on buying and selling: Caveat Emptor, that is, Let The Buyer Beware. Our extremely litigious society leads people to think like this person who is asking you to refund. His reasoning is, someone has to compensate me because I got burned, I made a mistake. The fact is, he chose to spend his money on this. He said yes. He clicked and paid, regardless of who may have influenced his decision. We all are responsible for our own actions, at least we all used to be, and this is an unfortunate and costly lesson for him. Sorry, no free ride because you got beat, Mr. Dragutin. Live and learn.
Hello Eric, I don’t know you personally, I have been following you for a three years. You were always honest. You may recommend products but you also said if you don’t have the money do not spend it. There are no guarantees. I honestly think you do not owe this person a penny. Eric please do not change the way you run your business. I read every thing and it sounds like he was happy with every thing. I think there is something missing. I do not think you are responsible too any one or any thing. It is my opinion that you do not have to pay any thing to any one. I am giving you my honest opinion.
Hi Eric,
For the moment,let us forget whether you are liable to pay him or not, legally or morally.
What I see here, is that your readers’loyalty and trust is so deep, that, on your recommendation, this reader has invested this “decent chunk of change”.
This has got and will get a fair degree of publicity on the net, and you are in a position of liability. Convert this liability into an asset.
How? If you pay him off, think of the goodwill you will earn amongst your followers.Your goodwill will rise to a next level. This reader will definitely talk to his fans and friends who in turn will become your fans also.Pay him off Eric! This will be a small investment for a good amount of good publicity. Anyway,we do have budget for Public relations.This will be your best earner.
However, that, this does not happen in the future is what you have to ensure. So,make sure that when you recommend someone in the future,
you add those extra words, about not being responsible and liable and whatever.
Eric does have a long line of supporters and his long time of honest relations will not be overturned by this (one lone) unfortunate situation; because, his reputation speaks for him over time. However, you sound like you might get a kickback for your efforts to get the injured party paid by an innocent party. Who are you really?
Whilst I sympathize with the person who lost the money, I think it is primarily his fault for parting with the money before seeing the result. If you were to reimburse him out of your own pocket this would create a precedent which many others in similar situations would use to claim against referrers. In my opinion, it is not a good idea to do this unless a Court orders you to do so.
However it illustrates the importance of having it clearly stated whenever you make a recommendation (whether on your website, in a blog, in an eMail or whatever) that you accept no responsibility if the recipient of the recommendation is disatisfied with whatever or whoever you are recommending.
Hi Eric, What on earth is the fuss about? I have been scammed a couple of times and lost money but it never entered my head to blame the affiliate who recommended it. On one occasion I asked the affiliate to pressure the seller to make the refund promised but he did nothing and didn’t respond to me. In the end, he (a supposed “guru”) suffered as I have let many people know of his unreliability.
I think your customer should get back to his credit card supplier if, as it appears, he used his credit card via paypal. Most majors will refund due to non delivery or scams, they simply redebit the receiver of the money. Not sure of their attitude if they paid Paypal but they can charge back to Paypal just as easily as to anyone else who received the funds.
These are factors that all buyers on the internet should take into account when dealing with strangers. The last person responsible for a loss is the recommender, provided the recommendation is given in good faith as was yours.
I too feel for the purchaser but they say you have to pay for your experience. This experience may well make him more aware of HIS obligations in a transaction and, in the long run, save him much more than his present loss.
My grand daughter got scammed by paying 2 weeks rent in advance for a holiday apartment in New York. The money was paid to a scammer. Her attitude was remarkable. First the tears at losing money she had worked hard for. After the tears “I should only have paid a deposit so it was my own fault. But I’ll know better in future” Great response from a 20 year old and one the customer should reflect on.
Eric, Eric,
For all the good you do, here you are in hot water again.
Firstly, you gave your recommendation in good faith and according to your own experience with Mr. Cole’s work. Secondly, you did not make an affiliate commission on the transaction.
Yes the customer has been duped and it is unfair, but the problem is between the writer and the customer to work out.
Morally and ethically, it would be great if you could try and reach the writer and get him to *do the right thing* and refund the customer — Adding that your reputation and business have been subsequently stained due to the writer’s handling of this.
Many of us — your followers — know you to be an UPRIGHT person and you never skunk anyone!
This is one of those unfortunate events that make some of us thankful we are not in the public as you are in this Internet business.
Having a web presence opens folks up to all kinds of unpleasant and hurtful situations; it sometimes brings out the worst of humanity…I mean some people get really, really ugly online.
Perhaps the writer can accommodate the buyer with an alternative product of equal value? He needs to do SOMETHING for that unfortunate buyer, B/C $1344 is a LARGE amount. — But YOU do not owe it.
Most Sincerely,
A.
Eric,Don,t you dare Pay the victim due to a third party scammer.What ever happened to buyer beware quote.The scammer should be sued by the victim. your supporters have given you an accurate summary on this situation.
Donald
First, the legal part. You are not responsible for refunding this person. One person is never responsible for the actions/inactions of another person. A simple case of buyer beware.
Second, the ethical part. Successful people who take it upon themselves to make recommendations should show some compassion for the person who spent his hard earned money based on those recommendations. I will leave whatever you decide about being compassionate up to you. Personally, I would not take full responsibility but would try to come to some sort of compromise.
Legally you are not responsible but morally you did recommend this person. I would find a common ground to repay some of the loss. If I recommend someone to my followers and that person screws one of my followers I would be ticked and hurt. Find a middle ground and you will both sleep better.
Eric, I also feel sorry for the guy being scammed the way he was. You recommend Cole in good faith and so there fore Cole is responsible, the fact that the person paid and didnt receive the goods is for him a hard lesson but it is his lesson NO you are not liable. Wishing you all the best.
Hi Eric,
this is quite an interesting story. Of course is that guy looking for every opportunity to get his money back. So would we, wouldn’t we?
However, I don’t think that you are responsible for a business transaction between two other people. How could you possibly have controlled what was going on between those two?
Your recommendation was done in good faith, nothing else. Things can change within a period of time. Consequently, it is always the buyer’s responsibility to check if everything is fine, and if he is comfortable with the conditions provided.
Anyway, I can’t understand why he paid him in full before he was satisfied with the product in the first place.
Eric,
I to have a decent email list of loyal subscribers.
I recently did an “Adswap” with a rather shady dude not checking hist credentials. I received several complaints from this guy. So, I wrote him and basically told him to make things right.
I hate to put some influence out there but the “IM”/Bizop niche is a very small world and once I start sending the word out that he screwed my subscribers it would spread.
I treat my list with the up most integrity and respect now.
Even more so, after going through List Control.
The guy may have been up front with you and give you a quality service.
But, you also have a email list of 50k+ and have a loyal following of beginning Internet Marketers who trust your decisions.
(Above is the Responsibility part to me.)
The fact is, we sell information in this business.
People rely on what we say and do to make choices to pull out their wallets and expect to get some return on their investment.
On the other hand…
We all know about returns and how some people get their taste of something they really can’t afford and return high ticket items.
I see that the copywriter tried to communicate with this guy. He also told him that this was a PLR and that conversion would be low due to competition.
And I know how you can sell a PLR to a bunch of beginners and it get flooded with Clickbank products.
Couple of my list members subscribed to you via recommendation and bought your Forex trading PLR and used the web designer you recommended.
They came to me complaining why it wasn’t selling once they placed it on Clickbank.
I had to tell them that there is more to it than just placing the site up there and then showed them the 20 + Forex trading products with zero gravity.
All of which, have the same design and video player with similar adcopy.
I volunteered consulting to help them with their own product and helped them with design.
But, also I told them there is no Easy Button in Internet Marketing. Selling a product takes time and promotion. You want to send traffic to your offer and check the conversion.
If this guy did not have any traffic then there would be no sure fire way to test conversion rates with paid adcopy to see if it works.
Plus, the others that got screwed by the adswap with that other guy.
I refunded partial money and ended up giving some of my product to them with a free consultation.
In summary, Eric I think what you do for beginners is awesome and take a lot of time.
I look to you as an authority figure for beginner Internet Marketers.
(I usually refer people to your courses who really need a ton of hand holding.)
I think to save face, you could give a partial refund or even write a adcopy for them.
(I have seen some of your adcopy and it is worth way more than what this other guys charges.)
But, I think the best caveat to readers on PLR, is the fact that the market for those get flooded a lot.
The best thing is to use it for content to another product or revamp it and add features to the software to give it more of a edge on competition. IMHO
I think if you compensated this reader, you would not only gain more respect from your list. But, you would show them your sincerity in their economic development online.
Eric you are the man!
Shane Hale
http://www.CashFlowNinja.com
Good point… I agree that “gurus”, large list owners, and those with authority and influence have a responsibility.
Eric, you do have a responsibility; however, it is not a financial one. You have a responsibility to take the time to get all the facts from both sides before you go throwing money at the problem. You don’t know either of the parties on a personal level. Do the math before you supply the answer. Make sure you have all the (true) facts from both sides. You may find that what you don’t know can hurt you. Don’t underestimate the power of fraud or the cunning of fraudulent people. I’m not making accusations, I’m just saying look at other possible scenarios and be ware of those who want you to pay for someone’s mismanagement of their personal business funds. Think!!! You gave a recommendation based on a project that cost you less than $200. Not more than $1,000.. The fact that he allegedly paid much more shows that he gave more credit to the copywriter than your recommendation allowed for. And, do really know that he did infact pay that? Don’t pay it, there are other alternatives. Mel
Dear Eric,
I think we should all take responsibilities for our own actions.
You made a recommendation on your blog and the reader took it. From the moment that he made a decision to follow your recommendation it became his responsibility.
We should always be aware that services especially creative services can never be guaranteed. Sometimes people can deliver excellent services sometimes it can be a total disaster. Performance is affected by so many factors that can either increase or decrease the efficiency of one’s performance.
I feel that you cannot be held responsible for the poor performance of your recommended copywriter. It is my opinion that you don’t have to refund the money of the reader but you can offer to mediate to come to an acceptable solution to both parties.
Here is something for the reader to think about: Had he made $ 1 Million or lots of money with your recommendation would he have given you your due reward or share of the money (because it was your responsibility after all that made him money)?
Suggestion: Maybe you can include a disclaimer about your recommendations.
A good followup to the above comment regarding responsibility.
The golden rule ‘Buyer Beware’ is known world wide. Dragutin should never have paid in full up front, you only do that when you physically have possession of the product or service at the time of purchase.Eric you are no way responsible for a third party’s actions.If you want to reach out to him and see if a mutual agreement could be settled upon that’s your choice. We as marketers should do what ever we can to provide customer satisfaction,which is sometimes impossible.I know you will do the right thing. This is my humble opinion.
Eric,
You are not obligated at all to refund the money. I do not know how old this gentleman is but a major lesson in life itself is,”You live and learn.” Myself personally,for that amount of money,I would have done a lot more research on the copywriter until no more could be done. I would of had to be 100% satisfied before I took equity out on my already maxed out card. If you pay him anything at all,he just may think he can do this at any time he realizes he made a mistake. You are completely right Eric. DO NOT PAY ANYTHING AT ALL. Let him work it out with the person he joined in contract with.
Eric, it is apparent that you have created quite a stir in the online universe with this discussion. As pointed out, bad business experiences are part of having a business. It is certainly hard to see how you have any financial responsibility in this case. As one writer said, you could pay the demand in the interests of good PR. However, the question is: how much reputational damage could be done if you do not pay. Since you have such an impeccable reputation, I doubt much.
One writer suggested, I believe, that you intercede with the copywriter to point out the damage HE is creating to his business, and how it would be in HIS best business interest to refund the amount, and learn from it. He needs to have a contract to protect himself, too, in the future.
As previously suggested, it would not hurt to ask the customer what he feels would actually be fair of you, considering you 1) had a legitimate basis to make your recommendation 2) you cannot control what the copywriter does in his business 3) you received no compensation at all from the copywriter. If he really thought about it, I suspect he will come to the conclusion that you are not obligated in any way. You are, rather, helping him to clarify his thoughts. And then, he can trash the copywriter in all sorts of ways.
Before doing so, he might point this out to the copywriter, and ask how much business does he ( the copywriter) want to lose. Remember, a satisfied customer might tell one or two people, but a po’d customer will tell ten or more!
“ask the customer what he feels would actually be fair of you” - good idea
Hi Eric,
I agree with many of your supporters, you are NOT responsible for this person’s disappointment in what he was expecting. I can see that he has tried to reason with the copywriter and failed and I see that he has attempted to get a refund from the other sources. Now it looks like he is trying a last ditch effort hoping that you will give him a refund. I have tried lots of plans on the Internet and many were not what I expected but I would never go after someone who was trying to help me by recommending something. You are not legally or morally responsible.
I do not believe that you are legally liable. However, ethically, if it were me, I would try and contact the other party and resolve it. I might even offer some personal coaching to help him regain his loss. But that is just me and what I would hope someone would do for me. Do you have to do that? Of course not. But from my followings of you, I think that you tend to follow the high road and will find a way to help the guy without doing it financially. And in return, I would hope that he would write you one really, glowing testimonial.
The fact that you had used this writer yourself and obtained satisfactory results is what counts here. You recommended someone who you had used in the past and would use in the future if you needed to have something else written.
The complainant would not expect to pay you anything if the letter produced had been worth double what he paid so there is no reason for you to pay the difference. In fact he may just be too fussy about what he wants.
Eric,
I am not a lawyer and am not giving legal advice. You are probably not legally responsible, as far as I know, however you might consider offering the poor guy something of equal value from your store of info products, or even write him a sales letter. You cannot help what happened between 2 third parties. Even though not obligated, you can offer to help in some way. That is how I would probably handle it.
Wolf
First question — “Am I liable” — means would a judge in a court say I have to pay. No. A court would find for you, not against you.
Second question — “Is it moral not to pay” — depends on what set of moral laws you subscribe to. If YOU say it’s immoral not to pay, then under YOUR moral code it is immoral not to pay.
Third question — “What shall I do?” — is the key question. Try to use the situation to create new value that was not there before. E.g. suggest to Dragutin that you want to help him out and therefore you will (without charge to him) make him an affiliate of one of your most expensive products and will credit him 100% of the sales proceeds on his first $1344 of sales. It costs you nothing, and it gives him a free way to come out whole and then keep on earning money (at the standard affiliate commission, after he has collected his $1,344).
Hello Eric,
You wrote a very thorough and thoughtful post. I believe you covered it all, and that most readers are in agreement that you are not liable.
Now, If I recommend a restaurant based on my great experience at that restaurant, and someone acts on my recommendation, goes there and ends up with food poisoning, am I liable? I think not!
But I would now reconsider ANY recommendations on my part. I guess I need a disclaimer for my recommendations!!! Perhaps a website dedicated to disclaimers! I’ll just have a link at all my other sites pointing to my “disclaimer” site. Boy what a great idea! OH OH, wait a minute…now I’ll need a disclaimer for my disclaimer site. It will never end.
I do not feel you are responsible for the agreement between two people that you had no personal or financial interst in. What is being asked for compares to us asking anyone who refers a product or service to be liable for a refund if we are unhappy. Anyone who endorses a product -athletes and actors are always giving endorsements - would be then liable. We are all grownups making our own decisions and must protect ourselves from the wolves out there - du diligence is needed. I would not refund the money to him - helping him find the right action steps to take to get his money back would be my suggestion.
It is a great lesson for all of us to learn and be aware of. Thank You for allowing us to voice our opinions and learn from this for ourselves.
Mary
No.
1. Testimonials are not a guarantee.
2. Dangerous legal precedent. Maybe I should pay his bill because I receive your newsletter?
To my mind you are absolutely not responsible to refund him. Copy writers should in any case only be paid in full once the work has been delivered.
If I act upon a recommendation, it is still MY duty to proceed with caution.
What would I do if I’m “walking in your moccasins”? I would certainly not pay
It’s all been said, not your fault.
I agree with the majority, that you don’t owe this man the amount he is asking. It’s hard for me to understand why he’s not going after the copywriter; after all, that’s the person who failed to fulfill his part of the agreement (if indeed there was one). Good will is one thing, but paying for someone else’s mistake, i.e. paying a large sum before a satisfactory product is produced, should not be expected.
Are you responsible? No!!. A refund would be a nice gesture, but would set a dangerous precedent. How about this: 1. Show him the responses you have gotten saying you aren’t responsible. 2. Offer him one of your products as a consolation. It won’t really cost you anything and it should create some good will.
Eric, You are not legally responsible however, your recomendation carried considerable weight. Customer is always responsible for due diligence. You should put that in your terms anytime you recommend someone or a company. If it were me, I would ask the guy if you could provide him with some of your best products to help him make up for the loss. That is what I would do. Making a cash payment to him goes too far and I would not pay him. I bet this can be worked out.
One other thing you might offer, is to send the copywriter a personal email requesting that he make it right with the customer. Or you will make it well known to the internet world and ruin his reputation and business. Play hardball with the copywriter. Say something like this: You have 24 hours to re-imburse Mr. X. If Mr. X has not received payment, I will personally make sure that your copywriting days on the internet are over. What you did cannot be tolerated. I will not allow my name to be dragged through the mud.. You got the customer because of my recommendation and you did him dirty. Make it right to him or else. You have 24 hours!
I have used this tactic before and did get my money back within the 24 hour period. He had done the same thing to numerous people but nobody else got their money back. I was the only one. I took control of the situation and made it happen. He knew I meant what I said. No more Mr.
Nice Guy with this copywriter. Give him a sleepless night and he will pay!
Eric,
IMHO, you’re not liable, however if paying the person the $1344 can be converted into good publicity valued at more than that in profits to you then it may be worth it.
I don’t see any ethical or legal reason (not a lawyer) for you to be liable here. If you pay out, it would be for the business benefit you would receive by acting in beyond good faith measures.
If a friend tells me to dine at a restaurant and I get sick from their food, do I ask my friend for punitive damages? No.
If I am referred by a doctor to a specialist, and that specialist ends up causing physical harm through malpractice, do I sue the referring GP? No.
If I refer a product or service, for no financial benefit to me, which I do often, do I deserve to be sued by someone who had a bad experience with the same product or service I had an excellent experience with? No.
The complainant here has a bone to pick with the person who ripped him off. You acted in good faith by revoking your endorsement of that person. If it was an affiliate arrangement for which you were remunerated directly, then I’d say you owe the poor bloke his dough. According to the write up above, that is not the case.
To that extent, I suggest looking at what the ROI is for paying it out, and if it surpasses not only the $1344, but the pain of copy cat complainants, then it may be worth it. Again, I don’t feel you’re liable from the description of the issue.
Been a follower for a couple years, and always appreciated the value in your blog and newsletters.
Wishing you the best.
Eric,
Thanks for bringing an important issue to light, which affects us all—”buyer beware.” Of course, you are not liable for the dealings of others, and I appreciate your compassion and sense of justice that leads you to at least try to reason the problem out.
This points us to the fact that all our dealings online or elsewhere need to be honorable and above reproach, and when we make mistakes in judgment (i.e., trusting an untrustworthy person), we need to forgive ourselves (and others) and move on to provide even wiser and better solutions and products.
Everyone sees you as a kind of guru. I think you want that too.
As such, they think that WHATEVER you recommend, is safe.
Just ask yourself, what would happen if with everything you would say: I recommend this company, but it is totally your problem if they are not dependable.
How many would still follow your recommendations? And what would that do to your reputation?
And then (and I am not saying at ALL that you don’t research them!) how sure are you actually of the companies/people you recommend?
Is there insurance for this kind of thing?
Hi Eric
You aren’t responsible.
To remind Dragutin, everytime I have listened to Eric recommend someone’s services/product he always clearly states that he has had a good experience with the person/product but we must check out his recommendations first before we use their services.
So the responsibility lies with us to do our own duediligence and work out if Eric’s recommendation works well for us and not just blindly trust what he says.
I understand the compassion issue i.e. you feel for Dragutin but please don’t pay the compensation (this is the easy option). It isn’t your fault and it sets a president going forward that anyone can make a claim and get paid even if they acted irresponsibly.
The only thing you can do in this circumstance Eric is to go to the copywriter in question and impress upon them that you recommended their services in good faith, they need to consider whether there is some compensation due to Dragutin otherwise you can no longer recommend their services and will publically state this on your website. If the copy writer isn’t bothered about the impact to their reputation when you do this then it isn’t your problem.
I hope this helps.
Isha
You are not in a binding, legal contract with this individual, Mr. Cole is, even if you endorsed this person it dosn’t make you liable. I would say in good faith and to keep this customer I would offer a 20% credit, small price to pay. Then go after Mr. Cole for slander and dragging you down with him. The fact as well, is that you removed him at the first sign of trouble says that you have acted in good faith as not to lead others down this path. You can also offer to write one for him.
Hi Eric,
Do you and our readers really think that Cole did NOT deliver ? Is a refund justified.
Eric, I consider you a trustworthy person.If you recommend a service/product, I would take it seriously and will not bother to verify.If something goes wrong, of course I will be annoyed with you but I will not hurl the whole blame on you.Here, your reputation is at stake. If Cole has not delivered a reasonable standard of service, he should rightly make a full refund or at least partially. If this the case, it will not hurt to offer Dragutin an apology or some gift. That’s what I will do.
Thank you once again ! I appreciate the good things you are doing for us.Best Regards.
There’s a copy of the sales letter in the PDF above. According to Dragutin, it is not relevant to his product. I’d be happy to hear Nicholas’ side of the story.
Eric:
I don’t think you have to pay the reader for this. He did not have to use the resource you suggested in the first place. You merely suggested the one you used for your project, because he did a good job for you. It’s not your fault if the person hired to do the job failed to do the job for this reader. I might suggest not naming any resources to future customers or merely suggesting companies such as Elance or similar outsourcing companies. The future customer would have a wide choice of resources to pick. You should not be liable for this.
By the way, I’ve never paid you or anyone you referred a cent, and I feel that you owe me $1399. Since its less than $1400, I think you’ll pay.
In a sense, this buyer has gotten his “ounce of flesh” just in the negative light that has been placed on this copywriter. Anyone searching his name from now on is going to see this discussion most likely.
This is a case for Small Claims Court. The buyer might not get his money back, but he can get a judgment and that is an annoyance too.
Lastly, I agree that personally if I had made a commission, I would have passed that on to the buyer…just to meet my own ethical standard.
I know how bad the guy feels about being ripped off, I think most everyone who uses the internet at all has experienced it.
You certainly have an obligation to express your apologies and regret, (which I suspect you have already done).
This does raise some interesting legal/ethical questions though. A lot would depend on the language used in your endorsement or promotion of his services.
For instance, if you said “he will write a killer sales page for you just like he did for me!”, or “you won’t find a better copywriter for the money!”, then you essentially guaranteed satisfaction.
If I were you, I would not refund his money, but may offer to do some copywriting for free or a deeply discounted rate, or perhaps a comp copy of one of your paid products.
I would also spend a lot of time letting my subscribers know about the potential damages to your reputation if an endorsed product or service goes bad. It sure has given me something to think about!
What I basically said is “Nicholas is the Walmart of sales copy. It’s not the greatest quality, but it’s decent, and he churns out a high volume of it for cheap prices”.
I did show some testimonials from Nicholas’ site though (hopefully they were real).
I too am tired of empty promises and not making a cent of all these products that make it so easy to make money. It seems that there is one step or two steps that they are omitting. If I ever make money. My guidelines would be . Here are the absolue steps to follow my guidelines and if you do, then yes you will make money. I cannot promise you how much as the rest remains with you. Steps and videos to show them click here and do that..next step..next video until success. Also pls write me to tell me how you made out as I will personally respond. I am looking for one HONEST GOD fearing person who can deliver. Having said that, I AM YET TO MEET HER OR HIM. I have spent thousands of dollars in vain.
That’s essentially what I’m attempting to do through my video lessons.
You as they say are “between the Rock and Hard place”, You totally are not responsible at all, but because you did recommend him, even so he did a good job for you, you did not check him out to see how others felt, so in order to maintain your reputation and not let it be impacted, you may want to give him the money and let this be a lesson for you as well to make sure you check someone out before recommending them, I run a small business and have had to suck it up and pay when I knew they were dead wrong, but word gets out and guess what I get it back ten fold. Hope this helps
I don’t believe you are liable. I am sorry Dragutin was scammed, but unless you guaranteed Mr. Cole’s work, this transaction is wholly between Mr. Cole and Dragutin.
I have bought things on recommendations that have been worthless or not worked out: everything from buying expensive products at live events to trying out/signing up for something touted by a friend (who may or may not get a kickback for the referral). Not once have I gone back to the “recommend-er” for a refund or even considered it.
I generally try to “make things right” by sending the offended party something, even a small token with my regrets for their bad experience. I wouldn’t take responsibility, but I would do this to show compassion and concern for what happened.
None of us can be responsible for another’s actions, which is, I think, what Dragutin is asking you to do. You made your recommendation in good faith and rescinded that recommendation after learning Mr. Cole’s service to others wasn’t what you had experienced.
Finally, I’ve heard gurus say one should always “test” new freelancers with small, inexpensive tasks first. If $1344 is more than one can bear to lose (understandable), then give the new person a $20 or $50 job first. I’m sure Dragutin could write a report or an ebook on newbie outsourcing mistakes (and monetize it) now!
Eric, like the other commenters I feel that you are NOT responsible. If a friend recommends a restaurant to you and you go there and have a terrible meal you you expect your friend to reimburse the price of your meal? NO! I am sorry that this person got scammed (been there myself) but we are all responsible for our own decisions. $1300 is a lot of money and if you want to help him as one of your customers you might offer him one of your products as a token of compassion, but, you are not required to do so.
Just my opinion.
Phil
I rather think any lawyer ould spit out his sunflower seeds into his spitoon, pull down on his suspenders and mutter …
‘caveat emptor. That’ll be $175.00′
haha
I definitely see no responsibility in this matter on your part. You recommended this person in good faith, since you had a positive experience with him and you would have no way of knowing he would act irresponsibily with someone else. Also you had no part in the contract that this person made with the copywriter. This could have been the reason for the messup - no clear contract of the client’s expectations. Also, usually one does not pay up front (except perhaps a deposit) for services such as those until you have received the merchandise or a sample of it. The 45 day limit with PayPal is also reasonable. Perhaps the client should have checked first to see if Nicholas Cole was registered with BBB. And BBB only will say - if they have had complaints against the Company. I think it’s ridiculous that you should have to pay anything in this instance. You received no money for your recommendation. I’m sorry he feels he was scammed. But it was definitely not by you. Then there is that legal expression “let the buyer beware”. I do not think that you are responsible nor are you liable for the money he spent. I think he’s looking for someone to blame and has tried everyone else involved. The issue is not yours to deal with. Carry on with the wonderful work you are giving us for free. I thank you and appreciate all your GOOD and GENEROUS time and information. Thanks again. Lucy
It is easy to say “let the buyer beware” but this recommendation is coming from a well respected guy.Someone many trust.
When my dad recommends a certain barber, do I need to check with BBB first ?
Eric, As usual I seem to be the odd man out. I think that the single most important consideration is what you consider your reputation and your word to be worth. The fact that you did not get paid is really irrelevant, as it was your intention to get paid when you made the recommendation. The fact that you are willing to discuss this issue publicly says a great deal for your character, as will the way you handle the resolution of it. Having watched many internet gurus demonstrate how they pick a product at random and start promoting it, I think it is about time that the responsibility begins to shift. Whether or not you have a legal responsibility is something every lawyer would argue based on who was paying him. Whether you have a moral responsibility is something only you can decide. The solution could be as simple as helping your reader get his sales letter written to his satisfaction. That would be a win-win resolution, and I can guarantee that the credibility you would receive would far outweigh the time and/or money involved. Thank you for publicizing this issue… from a long time reader.
“The fact that you did not get paid is really irrelevant, as it was your intention to get paid when you made the recommendation.”
A very interesting point.
Dear Eric,
I truly believe that you are an honest and ethical online marketer. The fact that you have handled this situation open and honestly proves this to me.
As much as I sympathize with the complainant, would it be any different if this product was advertised during a TV spot on Oprah?
Would Oprah then be liable after describing a positive result from a vendor ( therefore an endorsement of good service ) to then later find out that the vendor was inconsistent in quality and had ripped off clients?
The answer is No!, and this is why; although the claimant can say that he followed Oprah’s recommendations the truth is that this cannot be proved. Especially since the vendor has other avenues of service promotion. If the vendor was exclusively marketed on your site (or Oprah’s show for that matter) then duty of care is implied. However, since you were not compensated for the transaction, there remains no trail of evidence that he click on your affiliate link in the first place.
I’ve been ripped off too and it hurts, I plan to write about that in my own new (yet established) blog.
I feel for the guy, I really do. But to compensate him out of your pocket without full justification will only invite others to attempt the same strategy to be compensated.
They will all come out of the woodwork as presentence may be set. Also, it may be considered that you admit culpability by doing so.
My advice is to assist the claimant by offering an alternative solution. Perhaps you have a copywriter friend in need of free promotion that could help here?
Thanks for the opportunity to speak.
Cheers,
Scott
With your experience - write a series of letters for him on the same topic that the copywriter was to have done…and call it a day. Your integrity as an online marketer and mentor far exceeds the issue and it would be my contention that replacing the promised product will suffice.
Eric…
First; I appreciate your tips, even though I cannot say I actually follow them all. I am not really pushing for any big Internet marketing endeavors, so I do not do many things that you do. But, the info and advice is well received, and I admire and respect your experience and expertise. Thanks!
Your story here about the affiliate liabilities does bring up a very interesting set of questions. And, I do not think there is a clear-cut set of answers yet.
On one hand, our society seems to want anyone-in-the-chain to be accountable; we see evidence of that in many news stories and even in the political arena. It is a bit scary, actually; seems folks want to blame others for their own ignorance or inabilities.
On the other hand, how far should the chain-of-accountability be allowed to extend?
If, as others here allude to, everyone who ever promoted or advertised or otherwise sponsored something, was held fully accountable for knowing and telling the-whole-truth-and-nothing-but-the-truth…we would have no more TV, radio, Internet, magazine or other advertisements. Because we all know we are continuously being lied to by the mass media machine.
All of us are accountable for what we do; so I know some might say that because you recommended (and I am sure that word needs clear defining) something, or someone; that you should have known all there was to know.
I am sure you wish you DID know everything before-hand; then this would not have happened!
If YOU have to pay, I would say all advertisers have to pay, too.
If you somehow get forced into paying for this, it will be a sad and scary day for all of us who have even dabbled in affiliate marketing and similar online endeavors.
I don’t see how or why you should be forced to pay; you acted in good faith and honesty; if that does not trump the other side, we are in for a rough ride ahead! Good luck…keep us posted!
“how far should the chain-of-accountability be allowed to extend?”
Good question. I think that’s what the FTC is trying to address.
Eric,
A recommendation is a person’s opinion that something is good.
The person does not work for you therefore he is not an agent, making you liable for his actions.
You know someone who jumped out a 5 story building who said it was a great experience and based on their positive review you “recommended it,” a person would have to use their common sense to know jumping out a 5 story building most times is not going to result in feeling good.
In business smart folks have learned “Caeveat Emptor”, let the buyer beware.
If you do not have a contract you are not responsible.
If you were paid to provide a “recommendation” you still are not responsible for work done without your knowledge or supervision.
I write this knowing you have the big bucks to hire an attorney firm to deal with this guy if he sues.
If he sues and loses the cases he has to pay your legal bills.
He needs to sues the person he paid the money to whether he registered with BBB or not. If he paid for services he didn’t receive then small claims court judge will look at the evidence and award him a verdict. Once he gets the verdict then he plan to attach whatever he can get his hands on, because guys that burn people like this usually don’t like to pay even even if there is a judgment against them.
Locate the property, get the constable and go get what belongs to you from what ever property you can find to sell.
It is hard to do but take it easy don’t sweat too hard. Oh and be careful who you put up.
I feel for your customer as I have purchased a big ticket item from an online marketers recommendation and have not yet, 2 years later, received what I paid for. I personally am taking legal action against the person I made the purchase from not the person who refered me to him. I don’t think it right for your customer to think you responsible for someone elses actions and I understand your desire to err on the side of compassion, however I think that instead of giving him back money you did not receive perhaps writing the copy for him would be a fair compromise.
Eric, Not that I am capable of offering legal advice I do have some thoughts. The recommendation you gave is unclear. Apparently it would have been based on your payment of $197 paid for one letter. Would Dragutin have known that? Did that “recommmendation” induce him to spend $1344? Did you say D was “trustworthy and reliable” for an expenditure of $1344? Like you at present, I would be hesitating too before deciding what to do. Perhaps without any admission of liability offer him $197 (the apparent value of your recommendation) or whatever sum you are comfortable with - just to get him out of your hair.
Eric
You are under no obligation to pay this individual any monies whatsoever, neither legally or morally.
If I recommend to someone a great restaurant and that night they go and have a terrible meal how can I be held responsible to pay for their meal. I am simply recommending from my past experiences, things do change.
I sent a few friends to a restaurant I loved. This is part of my business. The food was bad and one got sick. They had changed owners. should I pay them for the bad food they had? NO. If you want to keep the goodwill going with your flock, you might meet half way and offer 50% in good faith. Or pay him all of it minus a few fees. You should do your homework a bit better as well as the customer. However you don’t want everyone on the planet asking you to fix a mistake or the bad service of someone else. I would put more stern warnings on any recommendations in the future. I have bought a product from you and its good. I find you do an excellent job, but I have been ripped off by others and have a hard time in the trust issue. That’s Life in the internet world.
I understand the guys frustration, I think that most if not all of us that buy products and services on the internet have been scammed by some one at sometime or another. I think Mr. Dragutin paid for copywriting services which he did not receive, but is blaming the wrong person for his loss. It seems that he was unable to collect from the person responsible for his loss and after he was unable to receive a refund from Paypal because the 45 days had expired he went to the next possible person to collect from which was you. I do not feel you owe him anything. He should chalk up the loss to experience learn from it and move on.
Eric,
I agree with your position. If you recommend a car dealer, and the car dealer does a customer wrong, are you liable to pay for his car? This is no different.
Your heart is in the right place, but you are not liable for another business’s misgivings.
No responsibility on your part.
It sounds like you made an honest recommendation,based on the service you were provided. You are not responsible for how the copywriter operates his business. I understand and appreciate your compassion for your reader. However,if you pay the reader anything,you open a floodgate that will be very hard to close. Thank-you for asking what we think. Blessing on you,your family and the reader in question.
No you are not responsible.
In my opinion, you’re not liable. The CAVEAT is always buyer beware. Though you can be somewhat be blamed. I would have hired the guy too based on your recommendation cause I trusted you. But the only difference, I would never pay the guy the full amount in advance. I myself, and I think every one whether you are in business or not had, had experienced being ripped off. The world is full of it. There’s always a snake be it in the forest or in the city.
If money isn’t an issue to you, then I’ll offer the victim some %age refund and some of your product. Good deeds never get unrewarded.
The “Law of Karma” governs our life every day, hour, minute & seconds. No one can get away from it. It’s a cosmic law!
Make sure though, to have Dragutin sign some kind of disclaimer— not an acceptance of fault from your end. Just cover your back, OK?
Because he was following you down a path, he then tripped and damaged his knee, he was in total control of his actions- walking- not you. In this business matter, he tripped several times by not practicing “buyer beware”. by not checking and getting other recommendations, by not withholding most if not all pay until the copy writing was approved, and dawdling and by not acting within Pay Pal’s 45 days, 45 days is plenty long enough to take corrective action as needed. Then there’s small debts court, has he tried that route? Finally, he will be able to claim the product loss and will be recompensed somewhat by the Feds. Finally as a gesture of goodwill, give him a free product or two to cover the balance.
Actually, I think one of your other readers had perhaps the best piece of advice you could possibly get on this issue.
You are NOT responsible for this man’s situation. You acted properly in making your recommendation, since you were a satisfied customer of Mr. Cole. What happened after that is not in your power to control, nor did you profit from it.
That being said, however, it is true that this could become either a PR nightmare for you or a PR goldmine. I say, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Mr. Dragutin obviously wants to make a living online. You, understandably, do not want to pay for someone else’s dishonesty. But your heart goes out to this man. So, you should consider doing is to go out of your way to help Mr. Dragutin get what he wants (an online living). In the process, you end up benefitting from this situation by gaining an increased reputation as an honest and compassionate businessman. I’m not saying that you should do this selfishly, with the sole motivation of benefitting from someone else’s misery, but it’s clear that you want to do something to help, and all I’m saying is that, sometimes when you take the right action, it pays off for you in the end. Think about that.
One other thing: don’t bother giving Mr. Cole “$1344 worth of negative publicity”. That’s a waste of your time and energy. Instead, simply cease recommending him (as you have done), and if asked about him, tell the truth. Word of mouth is either a boon or a killer. Crappy “businessmen” soon find themselves without customers, because people WILL talk. Because of the number of your readers, Mr. Cole has probably already received $134,400 worth of bad PR, and growing. You don’t have to do a thing.
I have been looking for a trustworthy person to help me build an online business. I have been studying your videos on Erics Tips, I do not believe you are a dishonest man. I can usually tell when I can’t trust someone. I trust you to lead me down the right path, therefore, I do not believe you owe them anything.
Bom,acho que o cliente deve se entender com quem ele negociou,o fato de voce te-lo recomendado não faz de voce o responsável pelo fracasso da negociação,acho que voce deve ser exmido de qualquer responsabilidade,fique calmo a justiça irá prevalecer,obrigada por prdir minha opinião.
translation?
Portuguese to English from Google translate, it says:
Well, I think the client should understand with whom he negotiated, the fact you have it recommended does not make you responsible for the failure of negotiation, I think you should be exmido any liability, stay calm justice will prevail, thanks for prdir my opinion.
Great post Eric.
For me these kinds of questions need to be answered personally, according to my own core values.
Logically this ‘problem’ can be compared or associated to many things in my mind’s ‘data base’ and therefore many different conclusions are possible. This shows some of the limits to the logical mind.
By comparing the situation to my core values (Heart) then I can have a sense of what is right for me.
In addition, depending on what I am personally working on, I have that to consider too. Perhaps I have decided to do what I am asked this week (because, for example, I noticed I am often very self centered) and I get this email. My response could be much different than just simply measuring what my mind and feelings have informed me.
I personally am glad you brought this up so that I look at my own business exposure in a deeper way.
Thanks!
Karl
Here what I’d say:
Hi Dragutin
I do not want to lose $1344 USD for nothing as I acted in full honesty and transparency.
Kind regards
Eric
Can anyone in this day and age take responsibility for their own affairs, do the research and understand that there are risks involved in hiring anyone you don’t know online and offline.
I hired a contractor to remodel my bathroom upon the recommendation of a friend who just had her bath remodeled. He did more harm than good, and was paid for it. I didn’t blame my friend and ask her to refund the money because she referred him to me. I made the final choice and I paid him before thorough inspection.
This is no different.
Bom, acho Que o Cliente DEVE SE Quem negociou O fato de voce te-lo recomendado Não Faz de voce o Responsável pelo Fracasso da Negociação, acho Que voce DEVE Ser exmido de Responsabilidade qualquer, Fique calmo uma Justiça ira prevalecer, Obrigada Por prdir Minha Opinião.
Hi Eric,
If you were aware of the copyrighter being a crook, then you should be liable for HALF of the refunded money. Since you were not involved got paid nor knew of this man running a scam. You are not responsible for any refund whatsoever. There of course will be karma involved. If I was you I would take it to JUDGE JUDY and be seen by 10 MILLION people and finally make a NATIONAL EXAMPLE of someone who scammed or was scammed by someone and set the internet marketing world on its ear! STAND UP FOR WHAT EVER IS RIGHT!
Be an example like the GOOD MASTER.
Eric, As I see it you know and I know that you are not legally responsible in any way. It was a service that he paid for and not a product, like a book, software. This is something that I would pray about in order to have a peace about in making the right decision. I rely on God and I am sure that you do also as my source for everything. If you do end up refunding his money that does not mean that from now on every person should expect to get a refund for products or services that you endorse. Each case is a individual case and should considered separately. God Bless
In affiliate marketing you would possibly be liable if you received compensation for your referrals. If such an agreement is in place, this agreement should release you from damages incurred when the product you endorse fails.
If you publicise a recommendation based upon experience you should include a disclaimer where actions and results in the past do not guarantee the future results similar to financial markets advertising. You are possibly in a grey area if you are recommending a service without a disclaimer. Reasonably one should not be accountable for this as you have no control mechanisms and an ombudsman, FICS or any related complaints handling service would be more interested in the service provider.
Eric:
you have done the right thing and more
the frist thing i leson to a weber on out soriceing was to put the money in a fundtill bouth party were happy
Addendum,
AS far as, reimbursement, you are not responsible because you had no idea this guy was not doing work someone else paid him to do.
It is not good business practice to feel sorry for persons who lost money on a poor decision they made. Just because someone tells you to do something you ultimate have to decide yourself to do a thing or not.
He must pursue the one who defrauded him. whatever his purposes were for getting a copywriter it had to do with business. In business you must have tough skin. It won’t be the last time someone scams you or tries to.
I can’t tell how many time I’ve been burn’t but you learn and grow and do not let it happen again.
I mean $1800. dollars?? anybody asking for that up front not your mom or brother you better think twice or three times before giving up the cash>
Actually he could have went to his local advertising agency, and probably would have saved about $1300. dollars. In business there can be no sympathy for ignorance.
Being mugged or robbed is one thing, but just sending your money away of your own free choice? You must be a man and accept your mistake and either get the guy who took your money or take it a lesson learned to never happen again. This life is hard, but some folks sound like they never hard any adversity and feel people who make bad decision should be responsible. Well only one person decided to pay and only one person paid that person, and he is the one responsible and no one else, period.
Those who really feel compassion can get together and pool their money and try and help, but under no circumstances is Eric responsible is any sense for replacing lost monies.
Eric you are not responsibiable, but as a copywriter yourself you can help him as a help. Now you do not have to but you said the golden rule
Eric,
It is obvious that the consensus is that you have no obligation, legally or morally, to compensate Dragutin for his failure to take necessary precautions regarding the hiring/retaining of a copywriter. I concur completely.
I agree with David.
True compassion is to act with integrity and not with charity.
A recommendation is just that and the decision to form an agreement with a third party is the accountability of the two parties involved.
As you received no payments associated with this deal, you are definitely not liable.
I understand Dragutin’s feelings and have empathy. We all have made unfortunate decisions. This was one of the decisions for Dragutin with the accountability for it.
I hope Dragutin can accept that this was a decision he made and realize the accountability of the decision is his.
Being a victim will not benefit anyone.
There is a lesson for him here and probably one for all of us….BOB
I think you are not responsible for the refund of the money that is not given to you.The customer should know the risk involve in paying the copywriter.Besides,he knew of the 45 day refund period on paypal so it is his fault if he did not avail it.You are only recommending according to your expirience with the copywriter.It is the customer’s responsibility to chose the right copywriter for him.
Hey Eric,
How are you? Based on what you have said happened I honestly don’t think it is your fault the guy got a raw deal. The guy did some work for you and you were very pleased with the work he did and by virtue of this, you recommended him to others. Yet, if afterward he starts to be dishonest with people and not giving them their money’s worth, they are the ones who should be blamed for paying this guy in full before the job is completed.
Hello Eric
Its always a issue when the subject of money arises and quality of service.
People can only do what they believe to be rite whether it works out or not is hard to say.
Going on a limb here - perhaps someone could help the fellow who was given less than perfect service - some other help in the form of copy - like a letter or some other way of assistance. While it would not pay for the lost money, it could help instill a sense of
honor and making amends where possible.
If this is of any interest, I would be glad to see if I could pitch in as being screwed over by a business you trust stinks.
Neither you or he are to blame for what has happened.
All the best
Susan In Aus
No you are not responsible. This was business between those two parties and it appears that there was communication. The party, who produce the product, even agreed to work with the customer. Asking the customer for more details on the product, to provide clarity and generate more interest. They could have gotten a more perfect product, possible. Not your fault.
If I were to ask for the refund from all those who recommended some kind service or work. I would be able to go on vacation for 3 months.
You are Free and Clear, as each one of us are 100% responsible for our own actions.
Carlos
Let’s say I ask my neighbor what movie he would suggest I see this weekend and I decide to go to that movie based on his recommendation. I didn’t think it was worth my time or money. I had the power and the option to get a refund from the theater. If I make a purchase, it’s MY responsibility to know the “terms of sale” with the business I transact with. The recommendation for this movie didn’t come with a warranty or guarantee- none offered and none expected. I did use the information to make a judgment.. but that’s the point. I used my judgment to make the decision to enter into the subsequent transaction. Sometimes that business is, plainly, not the choice that “should have been made”, but who knows that in advance?
I would never ask my meighbor for a refund- all he provided was his opinion/experience.. and while it did affect my decision, the responsiblity for the decision is mine alone.
Hi Eric,
Wow–what a mess. I say go with your heart, and I get the feeling your heart says–give him the money he lost. I can’t see any legal obligation on your part, but let’s face it, you can make 1300 bucks in a heart beat, Dragutin’s credit cards are all maxed out–the guy’s trying to get into this biz on a shoestring and loosing 1300 is crushing him. We all learn a lesson here. The way we recommend people and the way we enter into a contract. So again–go with your heart, you will get it back many times over. All the Very Best and Thank’s for bringing this situation to the public.
“I say go with your heart, and I get the feeling your heart says–give him the money he lost.”
I think my heart IS telling me to do something. I’m just not sure what yet.
Hi Eric,
What I would do in this case is give him $1344 worth of items you have in good faith. This is probably the best solution for both parties. I would be help with this solution. It’s a win win situation because you are not liable.
Eric, I suggest that you communicate with the copywriter about the predicament he has put you in. As I see it, you recommended him on the satisfactory work he did for you for $197. The price he charged Dragutin was far in excess of that. It is obvious that the copy was not relevant for the task at hand and Dragutin has every right to question that. It would certainly be very easy for Dragutin to drag down his reputation online in this age of social media. If you were to discuss this with the copywriter, he may change his attitude. You cannot be held responsible, as you provided the endorsement in good faith (with a disclaimer).
No you should not pay, but do warn the copywriter that his reputation is on the line. If he is an honest man then he should put a lid on this fiasco and issue a refund. After all, the money was paid up front before the copy was received. It’s a matter of goodwill.
Eric,
Bummer of a situation for sure. I appreciate the manner in which you are making proper considerations of all parties. Now for my opinion. I believe there is a difference between an “endorsement” and a referral or testimonial. By endorsing someone, I feel you are putting your name and good reputation on the other party…that is the whole point of it. But a referral or testimonial is nothing more than offering your experience with the party and it should be limited to that….”In my experience, this person was a good resource and provided a valuable service”. I am not sure which side of fence your written statement falls on, but if you endorsed the copy writer on your sales page or blog, I can see why the customer sees you as partly responsible for his purchase decision. It doesn’t sound like you have the kind of relationship with this copy writer where you would just pick up the phone and say…what is up here?…hear his side and then call him out for putting your reputation on the line, if he is burning this guy. You seem like a sharp and prayerful guy, I am confident you will do the right thing.
No of course you are not liable, which I think you already know, by the terms and conditions of your website, the relevant one listed below.
9. EXTERNAL LINKS.
Our website contains hypertext links to websites and other information created and maintained by other individuals and organizations. These links are only provided for your convenience. We do not control or guarantee the accuracy, completeness, relevance, or timeliness of any information or privacy policies posted on these linked websites. You should know that these websites may track visitor viewing habits.
In addition, hyperlinks to particular items do not reflect their importance, and are not an endorsement of the individuals or organizations sponsoring the websites, the views expressed on the websites, or the products or services offered on the websites.
We permit links to our website if they do not imply an endorsement by, or affiliation with, our website.
Is this a marketing ploy???
“Is this a marketing ploy?”
No it’s not. I’m an opportunist at heart, and I saw an opportunity for a good blog post. But not a ploy.
I would offer my deepest apology. I would offer to refund him my commission from the project. I see that as an act of good faith on my part and a fair win/win for the customer. The customer gets some type of refund and I don’t profit from what turned out to be a crappy product. Lesson learned from everybody.
We are clearly in a business where the buyer MUST beware. It should not be that way, but that is the truth of it.
For the client to expect you to refund the whole purchase price is lunacy.
I love my Toyota truck, even after all of the recall scare stuff I still love my truck. I could never hold the sales guy responsible for the recall problems. Nor could I hold the cashier at McDonald’s responsible for selling me a bag full of garbage. In the end I made the decision to buy the things I own, good and bad.
It’s a shame that the customer did not get what he wanted. It happens, it sucks, but too bad so sad.
I worked retail all through college and as such I have no sympathy for unreasonable customers. Refund the commission, give an apology, and try to help the guy find a quality copywriter.
I didn’t receive a commission for the sale though…
I subscribed to your services solely because you strike me as being a professional.
On the one hand, you are in danger of setting a precedent and opening the flood gates to other claims if you go ahead and pay up… which I do NOT advocate
On the other hand, however, you have to seriously ask yourself, do you want long term loyal repeat customers or just one-off buyers… and where does this client fit?
From what I have read there is nothing to stop you from walking away from this as David has correctly said because your client dealt directly with Nicholas with no involvement at any time from yourself or anyone commercially related to you.
In strict business terms, not your problem!
But, what if you classify them as someone you wish to keep?
My teams deal with disputes on a daily basis all over the world and I have trained them to always ask themselves whether or not the problem actually presents a positive opportunity for them before they make their final decision.
The proverbial win/win/win ideal.
And I can see a positive opportunity for you in this case.
Let me explain.
If I was you I would ask my client if he/she would consider being paired up with a suitable person to get their job done properly… at your expense.
The $1,344 was Nicolas Coles Retail charge… NOT his cost… and it was almost certainly grossly inflated given his cited track record,
so I am sure you could find someone well qualified/skilled to do the job for at least half that amount, if not less… especially as your client already has some copy to work with.
Of course, you have to weigh the pros and cons between your real long term cost if you walk away from this client vs the benefits you will get which will include retaining a very happy client and having access to a Sales Copy writer you will know you can rely on.
Not to mention the fact that you will set yourself apart as a professional in an industry with a far from user-friendly reputation.
Personally speaking, I would take the priceless reputation any day.
Peace
Peter Young
Founder/CEO
The Buying2Give Group
“ask themselves whether or not the problem actually presents a positive opportunity for them before they make their final decision.”
I do believe this will turn into a win/win, just not sure which path to take yet.
Hello, Here’s “my two cents”…In my humble opinion Eric is not liable,he didn’t provide the service,he didn’t force the buyer to accept and pay for the service before-hand. Eric feels bad about this because he is a christian person(with a giving heart)who feels the responsibility to his readers should always be above board.Eric should not even consider giving the buyer a refund for services or product he didn’t sell to him.Since I have learned to research a service or product being offered before buying.I,also, believe it is necessary to apply “buyer beware” with any purchases made online or offline…So, irregardless of who recommended the service or product the buyer should not have released any money until he was satisfied with the outcome of the service provided…Perhaps,a 20% payment of the total price would have been reasonable and un-refundable if the copywriter’s final draft was not what the buyer thought it should have been…An agreement(stating what the buyer wanted and how the copywriter might write it)apparently never took place…never step into a transaction blindly…Recommendations are just that “recommendations” and nobody twists your arm to step into a transaction with blinders on…
Hi Eric I do not think you are legally responsible. I am aware of all the work and advice you do for free and the charitable work you do. I am a Newbie and get bombarded every from the so called Gurus every day that I take no heed to;but you are one of a few, if not the only one that I listen to as far as Internet Marketing goes. I would probably feel the same if I followed your recomendation and got burned; at the same time you the individual did adequate work for you and you based your recomentation on that. Even though I do not think you are legally liable, I do think that you have the skills to work out something with the individual that won’t actually come out of your pocket. Just remember, a lot of people take what you say to heart and thanks for what you do!!!
Dear Eric
First of all it was the client’s fault in paying the total sum upfront. The second mistake that he is making now is to blame you for his stupidity. You do not have to pay anything to this person. That having been said, Mr Cole should be taken to task for his unprofessional attitude in this whole affair.
Hi Eric, just refund the guy! A well lesson to learn from!
Sorry to say you are between a rock and a hard place. if you remburse, you set a poor presidence, if you don’t it could make your other recomendations and business dealings suspect.
The claim to you is unsubstantiated; Dragutin made the conscious choice to follow your recommendation. Drasgutin needs to seek legal advice in regard to this copywriter, should he seek to recoup all of his loss.
Hey Eric…my suggestion is simple….if at all his findings about you is that you are the one to be held for refund then just go ahead..why not..but before you pay him the claim that he has put….you should be charging him double the amount of the money he is claiming as your consultancy service for recommending him a copywriter….is what the law says….
the best solution is…ask him to have a word with me…lolz
As someone who is concerned about the lack of responsibility, integrity and honesty in affiliate marketing, especially in reviews, I can readily sympathise with your reader who has found himself deceived and out of pocket for a considerable sum of money. However, after reading through the correspondence he had with Webline Marketing, I think it only fair to say that your reader should have been more wary and done his own research into the capabilities of the service provider. We cannot rely solely on a recommendation from someone we trust. To do so would be similar to accepting the advice of our good friend to marry someone he thinks is great, when we have never dated them or even talked to them. It would be extremely foolish.
We have to accept responsibility for our actions, for our choices, for our mistakes. Your reader made a mistake by not doing his own research into Webline Marketing. He made a mistake by paying up front. He made some poor choices. He is an adult and as such should be aware that not everyone is honest. From what you say, it appears you did not knowingly or purposely deceive by recommending Webline Marketing services, and have personally used, and been satisfied with, their services prior to this. However, if you had heard, known, or perceived of any difficulties, dissatisfaction, or complaints of others when dealing with Webline Marketing, and you had not taken action to review or remove your recommendation, then YES, you should consider yourself an accessory to the rip off. Only YOU can know if you had any idea or inkling about the poor service of Webline Marketing though. If your conscience is clear then you are free to inform your reader that you are not liable in any way for his actions, choices, decisions, or poor judgment. We ALL have to be wary and watchful and wise. Maybe that would be a good interpretation of the WWW - wary, watchful, and wise.
Eric,
I’m not an attorney, but I play one on T.V…
Regarding your LEGAL liability, my opinion is it is very limited at best. Everyone needs to be big boys and girls and do “appropriate due diligence” to protect themselves. The buyer needed to structure the transaction in a way that was comfortable from a risk standpoint. Your responsibility is to provide a disclaimer advising people of this.
From an ethical standpoint, I would think the service provider in question would respond to your concerns and help to remedy the situation. If not, perhaps you (or someone you know) can “perform” and help the customer with his “need”.
Also, remember there is always 2 sides to every story…
PS - Weird /// symbols seem to appear in my browser as I write this…
Eric -
Since you promptly withdrew your reccomendation upon learning of the copywriter’s behavior, you are certainly in no way legally or morally responsible to pay this refund.
Besides, to pay this money would open you to many other requests for money from other disgruntled customers. Would you like to “refund” me the thousands I’ve been scammed for lately?
Well, I have more to say. My best friend owns an animal hospital. When he first opened, he was scared to upset any customers. More often than not he returned more to an upset customer than he got in service. After, a few years and bearing a ton of guilt he realized that the customer was not always right.
It’s a shame and it’s sad when a customer’s dog or cat dies. But the bill is the bill and it is still due for services that were rendered. As such, just because your animal is sick does not mean my friend has to treat your animal for free because you do not have enough money to pay the fees.
I say this, because you don’t really need to give this guy anything. It took a few years, for my friend to take his heart off his sleeve. The funny thing is, when he separated the emotions from the business, he made more money and had less headaches.
There is no need to be mean to this guy, but there is a win/win that does not need to involve you paying for his inability to get better service from the copywriter.
Ok…I’m done ranting now.
Eric,
I’am glad you posted is problem, because I need a good laugh today! Stock market is down and a few stocks I own were recommendations from various places. NO! NO! NO! you don’t owe this guy a dime, and if you do pay him something. You could be starting something big?
Let go of the kite string,
Good Luck,
Barwet
Hi Eric,
My opinion as regards the items you have posted to us. I confirm that I do not know Nicholas, nor have I heard about him before now.
While I sympathize with the consumer, and believe he may (or may not) be entitled to a refund, I think he is asking the wrong person. If he is entitled to his refund, it should be addressed to Nicholas, and perhaps, in court.
1. The basis of this Transaction is a “Success Attitude”… From a business point of view, every sale must have a Begin and an End date.. There was none of this before money was exchanged. Eric, I don’t care if you tell me that American Airlines are the most “On-Time, Every time Airline”… Before I buy a ticket from them, I will check (a) If they go to my destination, (b) how much for, (c) when they depart (d) when they arrive…. In this case, all I see is a Start date… I don’t see a FINISH date,, as part of the agreement. Perhaps the buyer was in a rush to conclude the deal, and we all can fall into that trap sometimes. Whatever the case may be, You are not liable.
3. Based on the Questionnaire that Nicholas sent. There were too many ambiguous questions, by which he can slide out of any trap. Some of the questions were vague, and it was impossible for the buyer to know exactly what he was asking for… And so, he was able to present an “Internet Sales Letter” in the first place, and thereby claiming to have “delivered” on the job… As odd as that may seem, technically, he has… (And even offered to “help” do “other things”…). In this case, I doubt that even Nicholas will be held liable for this “deception” (IF we can call it that), and for legal reasons, we all have to be absolutely careful not to call him names either… But that’s the way he does business, and you have used his service before. So, you are not liable.
4. Based on an email correspondence from Nicholas to the client, he said
“Ok, thanks. I’m really anxious to get this project going for you so you can start seeing the sales roll into your bank account like all the other big time marketers you’ve read and heard about”…
It is my belief that there was a significant “Mis-communication” about what was on offer, and what was being paid for… In my mind, I feel Nicholas did assume that all he was supposed to write was an Internet marketing Sales Letter, which he “Delivered” on 11 January 2010, to the client, who paid on 2 December 2009… FIVE weeks later… Not bad really, for a Transaction that had no end date. So, you are not liable.
4. OK, so it took him TWO months before the client started asking for his money back. BUT, in order for the client to prove that Nicholas has done “something” wrong, he has to also prove that he did NOT get what he paid for. THAT will be difficult. ALSO, that he did not get it AT THE TIME that was agreed… THAT also will be difficult. But, YOU are not liable for that.
5. You endorsed a product you had used before. I believe this is the basis of your agreeing to become an Affiliate. Your recommendation was not fraudulent, nor misleading. You are not liable.
6. As an affiliate, you only get a percentage of the fee. In this case, you didn’t get paid. BUT, even if you did get paid, the money is yours. If I sign up as an affiliate of Trade-Doubler to promote KLM or Star McDonalds. It is possible for me to have used KLM services with no hitches, or had a great breakfast burger. I have a right to say so, even if I am being paid an Affiliate fee. IF KLM services become faulty after I let people know what service they offer, or if burgers now have cockroaches in them, I should not be held liable for that. BUT If I knew about consistent lapses in service or products, and I set out to deceive the consumer, then I am as much a fraudster and the Seller, and should be prosecuted for making false claims. But this is not the case. so you are not liable.
7. Your text reads.. “Now let’s talk about disclosing material connections….” Your Recommendation was made, I believe, BEFORE OCTOBER 2010… (because we are NOT yet in October 2010..).. so I assume, in October 2009. The FTC Guidelines came into effect 1 December 2009. This transaction took place (when money exchanged hands) on 2 December 2009, AFTER your recommendation, and you (normally, under Law), have so many days to display “Affiliate & Material Connection Statement”… you did that. You are not liable.
As to the Question of what is right, from a Justice and/or Ethical point of view… Do you pay this client.
1. From a Justice point of view. He is not your client. You have done nothing “wrong”, so the question of “Justice” does not arise with YOU. It might arise with Nicholas, and I would feel the client aught to attempt to get some, if not all, his money back. BUT from Nicholas. That is the basis of “Justice”. Someone who has done NO wrong, should NOT be made to pay… So, my answer is, I would not make this payment from a Justice point of view.
2. From an Ethical (or Empathy) point of view. This is absolutely up to you. This is a very sad case, really, because of the amount of money involved. And I see the client took certain precautions to check the Recommendations on Nicholas’ website… and no-one else responded, (other links did not work)… That should have raised alarm bells… As an affiliate, I assume you signed up, so you could make a bit more money.. In this case, you didn’t. But even if you did, the commission is yours, UNLESS Nicholas asks for it. BUT this is NOT a client you personally introduced. He himself claims to have checked other references.. If, like other marketers, you have endless affiliate links, you were not to know that other references were non-responsive, or that you happened to be the “only one” that responded. Even if you have the money to pay this client back, I will seriously suggest you do not. This is because you will open yourself to serious and, perhaps, endless numbers of litigation, and will send the wrong message out to clients who get poor services. That Affiliates should be pursued for the full payment (paid, for instance to KLM, or American Airlines) for services not rendered or poorly rendered. That will be like opening up a can of worms. The possibilities are endless. What would I do? I could not pay the client.
I feel sorry for the client, but I feel if he wishes to pursue this, Nicholas should be taken to court, and let the court decide. But, I do not see what you have done wrong, for a product that was purchased (and delivered, technically). So, I do not feel you aught to pay.
Nice analysis!
Eric, I am not an Attorney, so I can’t advise on the legal ramifications. But, it would seem that Common Law, would support your non culpability. Your recommendation was in good faith, based on the facts as you personally were aware. Some may not appreciate this, but there are many verses in my Bible, that support this.
Secondly, the agreement was not between you and him.
Third, what about the other party, that he did recieve a recommendation from? Is he trying to collect from him? Is that 4th party liable? And, to what degree?
Fourth, yes I would agree with your feelings of compassion, and the need to keep good will, between you and your readers. But, if you do compensate him. The can of Worms you’ll open for all of us is just unthinkable. You’ll have to let your conscience be your guide.
I just happen to have posted 2 articles on my blog, that I think all IM’s especially Newbies should read, that would cure a lot of these ills of the industry. It all relates to caution and good sense.
I too agree with others that you are not directly responsible.
But indirectly as an excellent human being you should help him to get back his lost amount from the seller.ie you should try to find out ways to contact the seller to get him refund the amount.
Or you should see whether something legally can be done against the seller ( Nicholas ).
Hope every thing gets solved favouring your subscriber .
Thanks
I do not think you have any legal or moral obligation to repay. You might offer to contact the writer on his behalf and tell him you had recommended him and his failure to produce looks bad for you and you will be forced to say you in no way will promote him in the future and will even say you are no longer associated with him on your blog (which you have done). You are not obligated to do this but it might be appropriate.
Hi Eric,
No, I don’t thing you are liable to that. You have good experience with Nicholas Cole so it’s ok you recommend him to others. The problem is when a lot of complaints are coming in, did you stop recommending him? If yes, you are not liable. If no, then morally, you should refund him half of that amount. Actually no matter what, Dragutin always has the responsibility to check things out first before giving the guy the job/project. So a full refund is not necessary because Dragutin should learn a lesson from this.
That’s my thought.
Thanks & regards,
Rick
Apologies, for numbering out of sequence. I should have pressed the Preview button, but pressed the Say it! button instead. Just goes to show you that anyone can make mistakes.
I would suggest speaking briefly with your attorney in reference to the legal perspective, however in answer to your second question…I would say that you already know in your gut what to do. You really don’t need to validate your decisions. I would say to go with what you think and feel is “right”.
If I were in your position I would not had initiated a public post presenting my situation. I would have quietly done what I thought was right and let it go.
I don’t agree that you need to placate this guy. It was a recommendation based upon your past good experience with the copywriter. People are subject to change. You cannot guarantee the reliability of another person.
It is not your resposibility
Thanks
Eric:
Nope: NOT responsible ! Yes, I am quite sure it really burns to be ripped off - but that is life. My perspective may be somewhat unique: I actually HAVE requested a refund from you and you were very agreeable. So, I KNOW you truly DO what you SAY you will do. (Actually, you OVER DID my refund - but I am certainly NOT complaining about that !)
Thanks,
Bill Carey
Eric, since you are not legally obligated for the refunds, now it only voice down to moral and ethic. I do feel for you and your reader who asked for a refund. I have to admit, in a few occasion I do feel like asking for a refund from the one who recommended the product and service.
It doesn’t go down too well for me when I act upon faith from the recommender and some degrees of trust are lost. Out of good faith, instead of refunding the amount, you might want to consider offering the reader a free product of yours. BTW the way you handle it, opening out to the floor and letting your readers voice their opinion is really fantastic move.
So this it will be a lesson to all IMers here, be vigilant on your recommendation. Make sure you use it and proven it before you share with your readers and it doesn’t hurt putting a disclaimer clause.
Cheers
some people like to take advantage if you let them l don’t think you should
Eric,
I am not a lawyer; however, I do know several American lawyers here in Korea.
Naturally, laws differ from country to country, state to state, and circumstance to circumstance.
In my opinion, along with my lawyer friends, you are not responsible for refunding a purchase that someone made based solely on a recommendation from you.
Just like someone else mentioned, if you recommended a mechanic, who had given you good service in the past, and then didn’t provide the same quality service, that is NOT your fault!
You were simply trying to help someone based on your own experience. There shouldn’t be anything wrong with that! If I recommend a restaurant here in Korea, and you don’t like it; I’m certainly not going to pay for your meal. I’m also certain that you would ask me to do so.
Whenever I’ve bought a product specifically from you, or one of your partners, and for whatever reason didn’t like the product; You Promptly refund my money along with an apology that really wasn’t necessary.
Dragutin is completely out of line to ask You to refund his purchase. He needs to realize that these things happen in online business.
I too have been ripped off. I spent $1500.00 on a coaching program that was recommended by another contact, and I knew more about Internet/affiliate marketing than the coach.
Again, I believe that you are not at all responsible; however, if you decide to refund him, in an unnecessary effort, I will contribute out of my pocket, and I’m confident that many of your other members would be willing to contribute.
You have provided such a great, free program, which is one of the best I’ve seen, so I will support you 100%.
Terry
South Korea
Eric, you are not liable for this. This is between the buyer and the seller.
If the shoe were on the other foot and Eric had lost $1344 based on a recommendation from Dragutin, would Dragutin be as eager to refund money to Eric? The real question is whether Nicholas Cole should refund the money he collected from Dragutin, and the answer to that is yes, if Cole could not deliver the goods, it is Cole’s responsibility to make the refund or work out an agreement where he will compensate the buyer by doing future work.
Eric, you have done your part. You have now thoroughly trashed the name Nicholas Cole in all search engines. Since Dragutin did not ask you if Cole was good enough for a $1344 deal, but simply jumped to the confusion that, if Cole fixed your bicycle OK, he could be trusted to fix an airplane. That was his mistake.
Personally, in a situation like that, after finding out the other side of the story I jump on the crook with both feet, if that is warranted, and assist the victim in getting his money back.
However, donating $1344 to the victim only teaches him to whine, and is going to hurt him a lot more than losing $1344. Sometimes “tough love” really is the best in the long run.
DearWebby
Eric- I feel sorry for the reader but unfortunately we all must take responibility for doing our own due diligence before hiring or outsourcing anything to others. Your recommendation was based on your own experience but even if it were not, I still do not think you are liable. Let’s face it, it is always alot easier to blame someone else for the mistakes we make our our own bad choices. The person requesting this refund from you should have done several things before hiring the copywriter you recommended. 1) He should have done his own due diligence. He should have aksed for the names of other copywriters from others on forums. He should have asked others on the Warrior’s Forum if they had used the copywriter in question. He should have asked the copywriter to provide the name of 4 or 5 clients who have okayed it so he could talk with them about his work. 2) He should have explored the copywriters credentials and professional associations and contacted these associations to determine if he was in good standing and considered credible and professional. 3) He should have proceed cautiously and checked the copywriter out to see if he was a member of the BBB before he hired him. 4) He should have structured the work to be completed in phases at which time the copywriter would be paid for each phase upon its completion to his satisfaction. All phases of the work and the terms of payment and satisfaction should have been spelled out in writing and signed by each party in from of a notary public. If the copywriter would not accept the terms of his agreement then he should have found someone else. 6) He should have asked Paypal for a refund at the 30-day mark, or at least before the 45-days was up, if the project was not on schedule or being performed to his satisfaction. why did he wait with this kind of money on the line and things not going well? 7) He also should know the difference between how using Paypal or his own Credit Card directly are different, and he should have determined what his recourse was with each, where he did not receive what he paid for before using one method over the other. I won’t go on and on here, but suffice it to say that one needs to watch out for their own money and stop trusing everybody so easily. Also, we all need to be better negtiators as far as how we structure our agreements. He really should have had some paperwork in hand regarding this. Lastly, it all comes down to personal responibility and taking responsibility for our own actions, good or bad. Deep down in his heart, this guy knows that you (Eric) are not to blame for his stupidity. However, I trust he has learned alot throughout this ordeal and that will probably serve him very well from here on out. - Mike-
I did not see any point you have to liable for this transaction, even I get scammed experience before like you.
1. You promote as an Affiliate, since affiliate have no liability for the products sold.
2. Ethically, simply You helped the reader to solve his problem and right. I thing you did it.
Paston
I agree with what David had to say.Also the buyer should be aware and check this person out also.maybe Eric you need a disclaimer on your websites.
No its not your responsibility to pay this guy.But I also know how you feel.Cheers.
Eric I just did a quick Google search for “Nicholas Cole copywriter” and with just the first couple of sites and the horror stories on them I would never have sent any money in the first place never mind who may have referenced him. I certainly feel bad for him that he has been given the rearound and probably will never see his money but as you mentioned … you also retracted your refernece after you found out he was becoming unreliable. Even without that statement you are nor liable for what another human being does or doesn’t do. I also wonder why any human would mess their name and credibility up be doing wrong to someone the way Nicholas apparently has done. In my humble opinion … Eric you are not liable.
I’m trying to look at this from both sides. If we substitute a different product - say dinner - for the copywriting services, would you refund someone’s money for a bad dinner on your recommendation? Probably not.
On the other hand, this gentleman was basing his decision on your word as someone he trusts (just one more reason we have to know who we are endorsing!).
I would do two things here. I would add a disclaimer to ALL of my recommendations (paid or not) and tell readers to do their due diligence when hiring anyone. Second, I would contact this copywriter myself and ask him to make good on the contract he had with Dragutin.
Other than that, as much as I hate “passing the buck” and saying something “isn’t my responsibility”, I would have to say that this is not your issue. If you want to make a good faith effort, you can offer him a percentage of his $1344.
I applaud you for putting this out there, and it’s been interesting reading others’ opinions.
I think we all know in our heart of hearts that no one should be held liable for work (or lack thereof) contracted between two independent parties, whether they recommended them as an affiliate, at the office water cooler, or friend to friend. If Nicolas Cole was an actual business partner of yours (in the legal sense of how your business is setup), that would be different, of course.
That said, Dragutin says he contracted with the Cole based on your recommendation. I know if I recommended a service provider to someone (even to a stranger on the street) and he got taken advantage of as a result of it, I would feel it my ethical responsibility to try to help restore his loss somehow. Does that mean reimburse him thousands of dollars in cash out of your own pocket? Of course not. But…since Micah has mentioned in several of your videos how great a copywriter you are, would it really be too much to just offer to write the guy one salesletter of the same high quality you would write for yourself and call it even?
Oh, I just noticed something else. From Section 255.0 of the Purpose and Definitions Guidelines..
http://ftc.gov/os/2009/10/091005revisedendorsementguides.pdf
Under Section (c), example 8, paragraph 3.
If you had received a FREE copy of whatever Nicholas was offering, in order for you to claim it was “fantastic”… you are liable. But in this case, you are not.
Hiring an attorney costs money. Sometimes it is best to take the high road. Sounds like he lost at your advice. Surely you have made enough money to help someone who has been scammed. If there is no recourse, what do you think will happen to others????
Hi Eric,
You are not liable. I have wasted money on products and never even asked for a refund from the seller of the product, and I certainly never would ask a recommender of the product for a refund.
The guy should just chalk it up to an expensive lesson and due more diligence before hiring anyone.
I know you are a Christian and want to do what’s right, but don’t lose money on something that you didn’t even make money on.
If anything, offer the guy some free coaching and help him make wiser decisions.
I am not a lawyer and have no idea how a judge would rule on a situation of this kind. But if it came before a jury and I was on it, I would vote in your favor.
If I bought an apple in a supermarket and recommended the supermarket and their current supply of apples as being worth buying, and the person to whom I made the recommendation bought a bad apple, I certainly wouldn’t expect him or her to come to me for the price of the apple if the supermarket failed to refund the purchase price. I see no difference here.
As to your being an affiliate, there is a difference btw one who gets paid for recommendations and one who is recommending due to their own personal experience without recompense, so pre or post the new internet rulings, in my opinion the “affiliate” status doesn’t apply. This is a situation, as you explain it, of one person recommending another in good faith because of his own personal experience.
Moral responsibility isn’t an issue here as I see it. And “compassion” is a sword that could cut you to ribbons at any price and set a precedent that could cause a great deal of harm to not only you, but to others who are marketing on the internet.
But getting back to your original question. Are Affiliates Liable for the Products They Promote or Endorse? I think you need to clearly define “affiliate” in this case, as well as “promote” and “endorse,”
or restate your question as: Is one who functions as an affiliate in internet marketing, legally and/or morally responsible for any and all recommendations made in good faith based on his or her personal experience whether or not he or she is being paid by the party being recommended for his or her recommendation?
My answer would be no, not for any and all recommendations made in good faith.
I am sorry for this person’s pain. But one making a purchase, regardless of recommendations, has to take precautions no matter. One never knows about apples. Caveat emptor.
“And “compassion” is a sword that could cut you to ribbons at any price and set a precedent that could cause a great deal of harm to not only you, but to others who are marketing on the internet.”
that’s what worries me.
Why is this so difficult for anyone to accept?
Were is the due diligence before spending money with someone you don’t know. I notice he had no problem checking things out after the fact, and only as a means to get his money back from someone else.
Help me I’ve fallen and I can’t get up! Bullshit!!!
Just another one of life’s lessons - get over it and keep moving forward. Remember, what comes around goes around.
Of course you’re not legally obligated to provide a refund, and doing so in this situation could open a flood gate of issues… especially now that you’ve taken it public. There is a third option, and that is getting with the writer and convincing him that it’s in his best interest to make this right.
I fully agree with others. I don’t see where you are liable . You recommended on good faith, by what he had done for you. You can’t help he didn’t stand up to his promise . The man should not have paid him until the work was done and satisfactory.
Eric,
I read the entire PDF a couple of times as well as thinking about what you said you did. I tried very hard to put myself into your shoes as well as looking at my own life experiences. (My experience is that a Judge will do whatever he pleases, despite the facts – I lost my home when a Judge ignored the only two independent witnesses and changed 15 years of mortgage payments into rent. He found as he thought it should have been, outside the testimony form both parties involved. My entire life’s equity gone as well as any inheritance for my children.) From what I have seen the attorney that twists the truth best and plays the ‘courthouse game’ best will win – stay away from court.
From reading the emails I wonder if English is the first language of either writer.
You stated that as soon as you saw that the writer was not doing what was promised that you dropped your endorsement – this shows something good about your own policies and honesty. There are so many people that will take advantage of honesty that it is important that you not become someone that the customers of others expect refunds from.
Are you legally liable? Considering what I experienced God only knows what a Judge would do - but I believe that you should not be held liable. You saw a problem with the writer and removed your endorsement; you disclosed any relationship when the rules changed. I think you met every reasonable expectation. (A further point: the writer now owes you and thus you are also a victim of their actions). I do not believe you did wrong in any way.
What about ethically? Did the unhappy client go to the writer before of after you dropped your endorsement? Did they understand what they were asking for? (Based on the email exchanges I would have been unhappy too).
Jesus said that “…whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them… Matthew 7:12 in part. You obviously feel something about this or you would not have brought it to such a public forum. You would be perfectly proper to send him a letter that you felt no legal or moral obligation to send him a refund. I have written book and product reviews for over a decade and understand how you might feel conflicted when this person has been taken advantage of. For me, to give an endorsement is to place a part of my reputation on the line. After consideration, if I were you I would:
Write the customer and tell him that you felt in no way a legal obligation to offer him any refund. But that you felt it might be proper to send him an amount from your own pocket in sympathy for his situation, and to assist him in getting his business going – as long as he understands that in doing so you admit no responsibility or legal obligation. This only providing that you truly feel a desire to try and help him salvage something out of the situation. I would not send him the full amount but something between half and 2/3. (You might even have a third party (with no previous connection to the writer) send it. And run what you do by your attorney first so that you do not unintentionally create a liability. If nothing else the disgruntled customer might become a big Eric supporter.
Bob
Who is learning and very happy with your videos and advice!
“From reading the emails I wonder if English is the first language of either writer.”
I’ve wondered the same thing.
“You obviously feel something about this or you would not have brought it to such a public forum.”
Correct.
Well I think the concensus seems to be what I feel that you did nothing to make you responsible other than make a recommendation in good faith. We all do that every day.
In this case you are a well known web marketeer and so the “deep pockets” syndrome comes to play. He has money let him pay. I would personally like to see him exhaust his other avenues of recouping the money before he comes to you.
Of course at the end of the day it is a gut call more than just a legal call and only you can make that one.
Eric,
While I dont think you’re liable. I would also want to help the person who followed my advice. I would hope that maybe you had at least another business contact who could provide the service at no additional charge and in return you would work out with him some sort of exchange. Maybe it’s promoting their product more. Some sort of barter. I think then the customer would feel better, personally you would feel better, and the person who got involved may get some followup sales from the customer…
I feel for the guy who is out of his money but I do not think that you should pay him. In good faith, based on your experience, you recommended that copywriter.
Unfortunately, Dragutin did not have a good experience with this copywriter but I think it sets a bad precedent in general for a recommender to be held financially liable for a bad experience.
Example: I give a friend a McDonald’s coupon and tell him to try the new “McSandwich” because I thought it was delicious. My friend takes the coupon buys and eats the sandwich and gets sick, does that make me financially liable for his pain and suffering? Do I even owe him for the cost of the sandwich? I don’t think so.
If small claims court is not an option then Dragutin, as he alluded to earlier in one of his e-mails, needs to put the internet to work and let as many people as possible know how bad his experience has been.
All though I feel for the victim and his loss, I myself look at it this way, You were nice enough to recommend this copywriter, that doesn’t place you in the payment area in which the victim had plagered on himself buy purchasing without doing his homework towards the copywriter. So that marks out that you are not responsible for his actions all though they are trying times for him. I do not like to lose that amount also. I would try my best to get it back from the copywriter who had screwed the vitim for his money. Thats how I play this out.
Why did you recommend a crook?
Hello Eric.
I think your credibility may be called into account, because you recommended this writer. However you said, you did business with this same writer before, and you had a good experience. The money you paid him was much less, I think you should have a serious chat with the writer, since you recommended him, let him know you are being asked to pay for his short comings, so he, should make this right with his client, because you are not responsible for his failures.
They both need judge Judy!!! But, NO, don’t you have some sort of a “disclaimer” to let people know that you ARE NOT LIABLE for the actions (or lack thereof)of others! Use at your own RISK!!! You are a TEACHER! You gave a recommendation based on a past experience. It went south. THEY NEED TO GROW UP AND ACT LIKE MEN!!! I agree that the copy doesn’t fit the desired description and he is due a refund, but, that refund shouldn’t come from you. However, if you did give the man the money, I wouldn’t think less of you. In fact, I”d highly respect your decision. It wouldn’t look bad on you, it would just make you look like a bigger man.
Hi Eric,
I would say you should do what your heart is saying. And if I were you, without further delay I would pay him the commissions that I got out of this deal. And furthermore, to give a boost in my reputation I would even pay him the rest amount. Because, I know what you give to the Universe, it will come to you many many folds. Its your chance to grab that opportunity, Eric. Grab It!!
Thanks again for giving us a chance to participate in this.
Kamrul
Eric,
It was with good intensions that you made the referral. And I’m sure your decision to recommend a company/individual is based on your previous experience and dealings with such. You clearly made an effort to help two groups: A client and the referral company. I can’t see how you should be held responsible if the company/individual does not perform. Clearly, they could do well with the clients you send their way, but choose not to perform tasks to the abilities demonstrated by them to you in order to get refferals. Secondly, even if someone recommends a service or company to me, it is still my responsibilty to do the research…….its not your fault nor should you reimburse any monies. Just don’t reccomend their service any longer since they let you and others down.
Hi Eric, I do not believe that either morally or otherwise you are responsible. It is up to the individual to do their due diligence anytime they have a recommendation for anything, even getting a second opinion if need be. One must take responsibility for their actions. Had you received some type of compensation than that would be a different situation all together.
nope your good!
I wouldn’t refund, but you could certainly help him out with his copywriting!
Business is business and it’s all risk on the other side. I have put 1000’s of dollars into things that were recommmended and didn’t work b/c of my lack of focus or I didn’t make it happen. Hell, there was my graphic designer (now ex) who got my psyched up about an opportunity that he was into… I signed up for it and bought into a $1000 share magazine co-op and a $1800 cpa package-> 600 targeted cpa leads that from all odds were supposed to convert a few or more $3000 sales of which I got $1000 for each sale. Around 10 or so bought the upfront ebook which gave me a 25 commission, but none took the $3000 platinum package. The cpa leads were from a list it seemed to be mainly unemployed. I realized later that the sales funnel needed another middle step product but was out of my control b/c I was using someone elses lead system. So many variables. Yes, I was angry and upset about it b/c it was a side biz opportunity that went South and I lost all that money. I didn’t go back to my graphic designer and demand he give my money back b/c of his recommendation. He bought leads too that didn’t convert for him, but he did make money off of his other clients who signed up for the 3k (discount) package. Thank God I only spent money on the advertising part of it and didn’t buy in. Live and Learn!
This makes for a very good copywriting and SEO lesson. Controversy gets 238 comments and counting and you are not legally or morally responsible for this persons!!!
If I told you about this amazing deal I just got on a car at Eric’s car lot and you go there and get a bad deal or lemon is that my fault “I THINK NOT”
I am not a lawyer nor do I play one I TV, so I am not going to touch the legal aspect of this.
On the moral side, I personally would feel bad if I had a good experience with someone and then recommended them to someone else only to find out they ripped off the other person.
I wouldn’t feel like I had a moral obligation to repay the loss unless I told the person in question, “You have to use this copywriter because not only is he the best, not only will his copy sell 10 times more of your stuff than any other copywriter, but this guy is a saint and treats all his customers with respect, always delivers, etc…” In other words, morally if I had made a case that this particular copywriter was the ONLY person anyone should ever choose for their copywriting then I MIGHT feel morally obligated to re-pay the money. Otherwise, not so much.
Blessings…
Eric you owe this guy nothing, doesn’t anyone take responsibility for his own actions anymore, and to wait 45 days + to resolve the issue, he’s not the brightest bulb in the arena. Let him bite the bullet
Regina H.
• There’s no legal responsibility from what I can see. However, that’s not the real issue here. It’s your CREDIBILITY as an Internet Marketer who produces ERIC’S TIPS week after week to many loyal followers present and future.
• . Your customer, trusting you, lost out because the vendor didn’t come through.
To make matters worse it appears that Cole isn’t great at customer relations, doesn’t look to minimize problems and protect the person who recommended him.
He may have his own side to this, but in the end the happiness of the customer (who in this case is a person who trusts you as the producer of ERIC’s TIPS ), so REALLY the CUSTOMER to whom you recommended Cole is what counts.
If I were you, I would definitely offer to do the copywriting for him and this would make him happy. Plus
• maybe even tack on one of your products for good measure. He probably doesn’t expect it and will likely be overjoyed at the generosity.
This also sends a signal to your customer base that you stand behind what you’re involved with.
Bottom line Eric, this is now more about YOU and your integrity as an Internet Marketer than it is about Cole.
For the future I would require that a percentage of sales be held in escrow for a period of time, to allow for complaint .
• Also for anyone who is not satisfied with a product that they purchased on the Internet, be it with a credit card or with the Paypal credit card processor, always eventually contact the credit card company that is where you get results. If it is a clickbank product try to get the refund through them first. In my experience if you have emailed the vendor a few times about wanting a refund and they are not complying , then send them an email one last time telling them you have lost your patience and are now going to contact the credit card company stating your reasons for a refund request. Wait a few days to see if they respond offering the refund (I have done this in the past and sometimes they are offering the refund because they do not want you to go to the credit card company and complain about them). Now if the y do not respond to that final email with a refund then phone your credit card company (the number on the back of the card) and you will be directed to the department that deals with complaints. They will ask the reason why you want the refund and then you can tell them your reasons. I have always gotten my refund once I call the credit card company and I have had to do this a number of times for different reasons.
• One last note. If a vendor you bought something from informs you by email with a link showing there is a legal document stating that the product could only be returned within 72 hours ( or however long), the credit card company informed me because you did not sign it therefore is not legal. In this case I also got my refund. So the credit card company is where you will get results for refunds if you do have to take it that far. I learned this all from experience.
In the business world… What works for you may not work for another person… it’s like saying one size fits all… or an item is suitable for everyone… I can tell you the products I produce are not perfect or suitable for everyone as each individual is different… Yet word of mouth is a powerful advertising tool. If I had a penny for every endorsement made to me and I acted upon it… and it was a negative experience… I would not blame the endorser I would seek a refund from the business providing the product or service…
If I were checking creds & only got one reply, as he did, I would have sought a copywriter elsewhere. Although you probably do not have a legal liability, a moral responsibility remains & I recommend giving him 1/2 the value as a purchase credit for a future product. Full value is not out of the question, but 1/2 might “cool his jets.” You’re not out the cash & he gets something of value. Not exactly a win-win, but close enough.
There is a risk in almost everything. If someone recommended you go to a specific store and you got mugged on the way… is that guy liable to pay your hospital bill? What happened to personal responsibility and accountability? Your customer is responsible to get more than one opinion if there is a substantial amount of money involved. Surely, he must realize you didn’t make this recommendation with the ability to control the result. We have a culture that is quick you blame. Someone once said when you point your finger at someone else, you have 3 fingers pointing back at you.
Hi Eric read most of the comment most point to the fact you do not owe a refund.Legally your not bound by recommendation.Ethically you are not also bound by recommendation, people recommend services all the time.I was in business also had it happen to me someone recommended product or service they had a good experience or they had a bad experience.I recommended others to work on a project and the person did not fulfill the obligation.However you don,t always know why.Consciously it bothered me and i made one attempt to get it sorted out by having a meeting between the two parties.In my case it worked and things got resolved.But you must lay ground rules.If nothing comes of it you settled it in your mind and they both lose by not trying to work it out.It is only a suggestion you will make up your own mind as to what to do.Let you inner voice guide you.At least you will remove it from your mind?
PS Thanks for helping me still learning Push Button
Helmut Ontario Canada
Hi Eric, I am sure you had some sort of disclaimer regarding your endorsements of others products and services. I don’t feel that you should be the one to compensate the person who is unhappy with the work. That is what the courts are created for to sort out these types of disputes. I think it will be hard for him to recoup his money from you. I know that in these matters an attorney should be consulted.
My Regards Eric
Hi Eric, we sure have learned a lot from you. Thanks for sharing so openly. We are learning again.
I agree that you are not at all responsible and your disclaimer covers you. If you decide to help the chap in a practical way (e.g. making him a sales letter), let him know it is a gift out of the kindness of your redeemed heart.
Val
Caveat emptor…buyer beware. It was up to your reader to do his own investigation of the copywriter before sending him any money. Why did he send the money before receiving the copy anyway? That wasn’t the smartest idea to begin with. You, Eric, certainly shouldn’t be held responsible for another grown adult’s lack of common sense! That’s a big problem in this country/world in general…people not wanting to take responsibility for their own mistakes and trying to pin the blame on someone else. I think this fellow needs to take the copywriter to court if he wants his money back so badly, and leave you alone. If all else fails, let him chalk it up as a learning experience so he never does it again.
Eric,
How can you tell the future and the actions of another person? I don’t think you owe this man a thing. You can make recommendations all day long. Are you responsible for the action of others. I’ve been ripped off myself. I asked for refunds and some do and some don’t give them. I have been on your email list for over 2 years and I am impressed with your honesty. No fluff just the facts. My only suggestion would be for you to contact the copywriter and plead for the case for the client. I only suggest this because you are taking the time on your blog. Pray on this and God will give you an answer.
Eric,
I agree with those who say you are not legally liable. I a bit conflicted on the repayment to the customer, however.
I know the WWJD bracelets smack some of triviality, yet the apostle Paul implies that when he (Paul) says, “Follow me, as I follow Jesus.”
Having said that and surveyed other scriptures in my mind, I’m struck by the times that Jesus said that sins were forgiven even as a priority over bodies being healed.
Perhaps you could do this; the customer wanted a sales letter written. You (or your copywriters) produce well written work. What if you offered to produce the sales letter for the person? Then, perhaps a letter of kind “advice” to the guy who did not (allegedly) perform the work… but a letter in which you stress your own compassion for the copywriter, and were praying FOR him… seems like I remember that as a scriptural admonition… to do his business with integrity and excellence.
In fact, in my own business I’m strongly trying to follow the principle of achieving Radical Excellence by using traditional values that are based in scripture.
Speaking of prayer, I will pray that you will be able to leave all this behind with confidence to go forward following the vision you have.
Thanks
As one who appreciates a good glass of lemonade let’s see if we can turn this bushel of lemons into something good.
First of all, you do not have an obligation to compensate this gentleman for the money he has lost. But you do have an obligation to the world at large to see this story through …
especially since you have shared the first couple of chapters with us.
It seems that on one side of the chasm we have a gentleman who is astute enough at business to be looking for professional assistance in fine tuning his efforts. Unfortunately, Dragutin did not check this knucklehead out well enough. But we have all made mistakes.
On the other side we have a gentleman (that be you) who has an exceptional knack of communicating, teaching and mentoring others.
Hmmm….
If I had chocolate and peanut butter I would put them together and see what I had.
What if the two of you were to strike up a mini partnership and create a product, a tool, a training course, an ebook telling a story of two marketing rockstars that started off on the wrong foot, a ????
The first $1344 would go to Dragutin. The next $100,000 or so could be split 50%/50%.
You could slide me $20 and a glass of lemonade for coming up with the idea.
…. and the world would be a better place!
Paul
I have to agree with you about both the liability and reputation part. I quit relying on recommendations from internet marketers. I do my own research on whatever it is that I am purchasing. In this guys case he should not have paid the man up front. It is his fault that he got burned. Doing something like that on the net is saying I’m a sucker, take my money. Whatever you do Eric, listen to your heart, it’ll make the decision for you.
The first thing to remember is”The Buyer Beware”
secondly paying $1300+ out to what is a contractor was a little stupid,myself has over many years recommended services and products based on my first hand knowledge of these services and products. Some people don’t get as good a service product that I received, that does not make me liable for their misfortune. In the case at hand, a large proportion is the complainants own doing,he is trying to project himself as something he is not, an “expert” the info given to the copywriter is not very good, a very good copy writer would have made a better job of it, but essentially the complainant got what he asked for. Sad but true.
Eric,Here is the way I see it.
> Not Guilty period!!
>There isn’t or shouldn’t be any feelings
of guilt or remorse on your part.
>Your reputation has NOTHING to do with
THIS MAN’S DILEMMA .
> You are reachable I think by offering
any kind of refund would open up a can of worms.
>I would just say Sorry for your misfortune
next time he should check more thoroughly before making a commitment for something he knew nothing about.Your results can’t be compared to his results.
Hi Erik,
This business was obviously NOT between you and this gentleman; therefore, in my opinion, you do not have a legal obligation to refund him anything. As for a moral obligation, I don’t believe there is such a thing in this case either. Sure, you recommended this copywriter in good faith AT THAT TIME, but you did not TELL him to use this copywriting service, and it should have been this customer’s own moral obligation to check out more than one copywriter before making his decision to purchase a service - not your responsibility, Erik. In all the months that I have been following you and your teachings in this business, I know of no one else who is willing to do so much for so many with little or no compensation. In my honest opinion, I believe you have no legal, moral or ethical obligation to this customer who was obviously all too eager to pay up front for what he wanted and thought he was going to receive - definitely not something I would have done, and most assuredly I would not try to get a refund from anyone other than the entity I was directly doing business with. But, that’s just me
Eric,
IMO, you are not responsible for refunding any money to Dragutin. You made a recommendation based on your own positive experience with a third party’s service. You cannot be held responsible if the service was not satisfactory according to someone else’s experience with that same service provider.
As an example, if we were to go with what Dragutin thinks is fair, I’d have to reimburse my neighbor if they went out and bought a minivan based on my recommendation, and then something went wrong with the car and the person who sold it to them skipped town. There are many other examples I can give along this line. Suffice it to say, in addition to taking your recommendation into account, Dragutin should have also conducted his own independent research on the copywriter. Either way, in the end, it was Dragutin’s ultimate choice.
Eric, I have recently gone through a similar situation. I asked a long time friend, who has a lot of internet business experience, for a recommendation. I needed help restructuring our website.
My friend recommended a person who had done excellent work for him in the past.
Everything was moving along very well and I was making incramental payments based on work accomplished. Suddenly the work stopped.
Excuses became the norm. Next I found that the temporary website had been trashed. After that the actual business website was trashed.
I was out money and out of business. It was impossible to prove who was responsible for the destruction and the lady that had been doing the work refused to communicate.
After giving the situation a lot of thought, I decided it was not my friend’s fault because he had acted in good faith. If someone or something unexpectedly turns sour that is unpredictable.
Only God knows what’s around the corner.
Next time I’ll be far more careful.
And thanks to my friend, we are back in business.
Eric and all members,
As previously mentioned, I’m willing to cough up a few bucks, should Eric decide to refund this “Dragutin *&^_(t”.
If we all agree to spend even a couple of dollars, then Eric, should he decide to go against the majority, could make the refund, and it wouldn’t come out of his pocket.
Eric has provided all of us with a supreme service and has mentioned more than once about giving back.
I think it’s time to give back to Eric if he so desires.
Terry,
South Korea
Eric,
You have no obligation, legally or morally, to pay him. That being said, even despite your well-founded concerns about people taking advantage of you in the future, it might be a kind gesture to pay him a couple hundred bucks. If you decide to do this, please chat with your lawyer first. You would want a statement signed or acknowledged by him that you don’t actually owe him anything at all, that you’re doing this merely because you’re a good guy, and that he agrees not to complain about/badmouth you about this incident in any forum, public or private.
Just my .02.
Eric,
While I feel for this person, the question here is this… you had a good experience doing business with this copywriter, and you recommended him based on your experience.
Is it your fault if this person one day decides to become dishonest in his business dealings? That answer would be no.
Any of us would feel absolutely terrible if we were in your shoes, and most of us might even feel a bit responsible because of our part in such a transaction, but as I mentioned, none of us are responsible for the decisions of another. To set such a precedence could prove a disaster to your business, and to others as well.
My suggestion…
If it eases your conscience, and you can easily afford the money, you might consider paying. You must be able to sleep at night. But if you do so, you need to clearly state that from this moment on that you will not be liable for such transactions, and that you refunded this man strictly from the kindness of your heart, not from any legal obligation.
Make it a part of your site policy that consumers all know the golden rule… “buyer beware,” and that we are all responsible for our own decisions if we decide to do business based on a good experience you had.
Are you legally responsible? No.
Are you morally responsible? Only you can answer that question, but I don’t think you are. There are no guarantees that any person will provide the service they promise, and none of us can bear the responsibility of another.
One other point to consider, perhaps, if you are considering paying him, would be to pay half. After all, he should have researched this man and his business before paying him. He needs to accept that as being his responsibility…all of us need to remember that.
Good luck to you, I hope you come to a solution you can be happy with.
Greg
I’m in general agreement with the rest of the responders, especially Rudy. I would be cautious though, so it would not seem like an admission of responsibility. It is a tricky legal problem, and I am not a lawyer. Having been on both sides of the problem–as a “seeker of truth”, and a copywriter, I find myself coming down on your side. You did not have any monetary agreement with the writer. Before shelling out $1300 some dollars, I would demand a written statement of work outlining exactly what was to be done, what deliverables were expected, timelines, content, and approval provisions. As a purchaser of internet products and services, I would never depend on the word of a person or organization without first getting a second opinion, especially for that amount of money.
No, Eric, you’re not reliable.
Your major mistake was not recommending ME. I am the greatest copywriter in the history of the world (my mother assures me) and I am an honest man. I do not take money for work not done.
Well give us your link then!
Hi Eric. You are not liable to pay this guy and I think if you were talk to a lawyer they would say the same. Here in N.Z
we have the disputes tribunal which is what he could use if he is not satisfied with the service he was provided with. As the others have said you were satisfied with the service you got which is your opinion and the other guy has his opinion of Nicholas Cole
I’m not sure I have the whole story. Have YOU had complaints about this copywriter from others you recommended…and then still promoted your affiliate link on your site? The $197 you paid is quite a jump from the $1300. your client was charged…did you know or do you get the lion share (assuming payment)?
I’m not sure how long ago this was but when I use paypal, I always pay using my credit card so that I can be assured the refund occurs. Don’t know what cc he uses…but that has never stopped my cc Co. from issuing a conditional credit and I have yet to have it reversed. I’ve been able to get refunds well past paypal’s limitations.
After saying ALL of that…I am an online entrepreneur and I value every single customer that I have…so I wouldn’t hesitate to refund something like this. I don’t see it as a “fault” thing…and frankly, I’d pursue whoever I refunded on behalf of.
Regardless, I think everyone should BEWARE that refund policies aren’t always TRUE…just because someone puts a guarantee in writing, doesn’t mean they are true to what they say. I’ve had several affiliates promote junk to me and when I asked for a refund, they ignored me. That’s why when I use paypal, I always select my cc instead of the funds in my account.
Their written guarantee is ALL the cc Company needs to see.
No, the complaints came after the recommendation.
No I was not aware of the $1300+ deal that was made. I believe Nicholas was supposed to pay me about 20-30% commission. I do not have the exact #’s, because apparently Nicholas cancelled his 1shoppingcart account or something, because I cannot log into my affiliate account.
I gasp when I see what he paid for the services of this copywriter. That is nearly 10 times what you said you paid. No matter how much Dragutin needed done, the PRUDENT thing for him to have done is to do a small test before committing the farm. The copywriter is liable for services paid for and not rendered. Dragutin seems to me to be taking advice blindly. As an affiliate, I suppose this kind of thing surfaces periodically. That does not make the affiliate responsible for bad judgment. He made a business deal with someone other than you. Where does personal responsibility come into something like this?
No, my friend, you owe him nothing either legally or morally. If you wish to compensate him out of charity, that is a totally different thing.
Eric,
In my opinion, you are certainly not legally liable. It would make the requesting party very happy to see you pay, and I can certainly tell that you are very compassionate about this person’s plight. But, and this is the “biggie” — you would be setting a huge precedent that everyone you recommended would have to please all those who followed your recommendation. Apparently that is not always going to happen. I don’t know how you phrased your recommendation, but with your broad exposure, you would probably be prudent to tell your prospects and clients of your experience without giving any SPECIFIC recommendations for 3rd party purveyors.
Eric, sorry if this comment comes through twice. It didn’t seem to ‘take’ the first time. You have three questions:
1) Am I liable. This means would a judge in a court find you liable. No. A judge would not.
2) What is the moral thing to do. This depends on what moral code you adhere to. If YOU say it is immoral not to pay Dragutin … then it is immoral not to pay him.
3) What is the thing to do here. Try to create new value where none existed before. E.g. tell Dragutin you want to help him out, and what you will do is — free of charge — make him an affiliate for one of your most expensive products. And then you will remit to him 90% of all sales he makes, up to $1344. Then he can keep selling on the regular affiliate commission rate.
This doesn’t cost you anything. It makes him whole. And it builds better good will than there was before.
Pay the man. Here’s why.He is your customer or at least you wanted him to be.I see the comments are in favor of not paying it, but the reasons that you should are:
1)He felt he could trust you - If you pay him he’ll know that he can.
2)He quite possibly could buy products from you in the future that will be much more than the $1400. If on the other hand you don’t he will NEVER buy from you no matter who writes your copy.
3)You made a mistake because you recommended
the writer and YOU did’nt check to see if he had been endorsed by the BBB.
4)As long as in the future you recommend only products/services/people which are so endorsed you will probably NEVER get another email like the one you received from him.
5)Bottom line is you will be out $1400 which you can recoup and you will gain a loyal customer who is’nt afraid to use his credit card and BUY and you will feel better doing it this way rather than not.
I do not think the BBB makes endorsements, but I know what you’re saying. Actually many of the things I recommend are probably not listed with the BBB. In fact I’m not even registered with them. I do think the BBB is a good resource to check companies out, and they serve a good purpose when it comes to consumer protection. But I wouldn’t rule out someone’s integrity just because they aren’t listed. I personally don’t support them, because they are a for-profit business that IMO masquerades as a government authority, and they try to pressure businesses into coughing up registration fees or risk being labled a fraudulent business.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the BBB is a bad company, but they ARE a business, and I think they push the envelope with some of their local marketing tactics, which is ironic.
I hesitate to even write this, because I don’t want to be blacklisted by them or something, LOL.
Seems to me that he made a mistake believing the guy’s “Storyline.” Yes, you endorsed him from your experience, but supposedly we are all adults and as such need to take responsiiblity for our own actions. I’m in the hole around $10,000 for a renters “storyline”– an expensive lesson for me, and also for Dragultin for perhaps not trusting his gut!!
Look at it this way. If every newspaper that recommended you vote for George W. Bush is not being held liable for the death and destruction that idiot brought into the world, why should you be liable for the carelessness of someone who failed to give due diligence to his business research? He should have reasoned that your opinion is just one of many and that he must do his homework and develop his own opinion. Why is it that Internet Marketer wannabe’s act like sheep? Wake up people! Don’t believe anyone, even a good guy like Eric. He can be wrong, as has been proven in this instance. You must learn to think before acting. By the way, anybody can be a copywriter so why spend all that money on an unproven entity? Do it yourself! Especially if you’re a beginner. Frankly, if you can’t write your own copy, you probably belong on a factory assembly line somewhere. Eric didn’t cause this guy’s misery but he really should be more careful and distance himself from the majority of online marketers who are mostly liars. This business is full of criminals, just like the real world.
Legally, you’re not liable. Ethically, you’re not liable. If you want to sleep soundly at night and not worry about this whole matter, you could attempt to negotiate a settlement at somewhere between 20-50% of the transaction just to put the whole mess behind you. If Dragutin doesn’t like this, he’s SOL. If he accepts the settlement, the incident ends, but I think you could be setting a dangerous precedent by offering a settlement in this scenario. Everyone that does business on the internet at one time or another gets screwed or takes one in the shorts and just accepts it as a cost of doing business on the internet and tries to minimize the number of times it happens to him or her. If Dragutin makes an incident out of this whole thing, the word gets around and no one will want to do business with him. Even though the internet covers the whole world, the business side of the internet remains relatively small and I wouldn’t push it if I were him, because word gets around fast and no one will want to do business with him. So, I guess my position in this incident is no settlement and no refund. If you lose a subscriber, you’ll live. Dragutin should just accept the whole incident and push forward. He’ll live, and will actually garner some respect by accepting his loss. It happens. One just tries to minimize the number of bad experiences.
Hi Eric
That situation with Nicholas Cole reminds me of a situation that somewhat resembles this one.
I had given a contractor a downpayment of over 1000.00 to have him install new windows in my house. After he got the downpayment, I did not hear from him for a few months so I decided to contact him. However, I could not reach him by phone, so I wrote to him. He of course did not answer.
After a few months went by I received a letter from a lawyer who had been approached by others who “had been taken” and was asked if I also wanted to add my name to the list. I prayed about it, and somehow felt I should not, that this guy was going through “a hell of his own.” I told the lawyer I was not adding my name to the list and wrote to the contractor telling him that he would hear from me no more, that his debt to me was forgiven because I had prayed about this issue and I was given the feeling I was to forgive the contractor and let the issue go.
Six months later I received a visit from another contractor who told me that he had been approached by the first contractor and had been asked to fulfill the contracts of all those who had given a downpayment.
He then informed me that the first contractor had specifically asked that I be the first on the list to receive my windows. I was then told that the first contractor had been out of commission because of a severe mental breakdown and that was why he had been unable to fulfill his contracts.
Therefore that brings me to this question: Have you tried to contact Nicholas? Is he sick or is this lack of fulfilling his contracts on purpose?
Secondly, if I had endorsed a person and other people who really trusted me had followed my recommendation, I would try to compensate in some way. Perhaps one way would be to try to find out from Nicholas himself why he has not done what was promised.
Perhaps you could do as suggested in previous responses: somehow help this man get what he needs…a well written copy.
Upon a copy of proof of payment to Nicholas I would feel it my duty to help this person out in some way for no other reason but my name is attached to the endorsement. He needs Help. And after this never make a recommendation unless it is followed by a strong disclaimer.
Stay away from lawyers. It would cost you and Dragutin more in the long run.
Marcelle
If I have a good experience with the vehicle I own and someone asks me would I recommend that vehicle make, and I say yes; then am I responsible for all the vehicle repairs for that person should they decide to purchase that make of vehicle?
That is the problem with our society; always looking for someone else to blame. Maybe more due diligence on his part to see recent work and ask for an endorsement from a recent customer? How about using an escrow service such as eLance.com or escrow.com?
Dragnuts just learned an important lesson on outsourcing. Maybe he should invest in a course on outsourcing.
Hi Eric,
I truly believe it would be wrong on so many levels for you to take on the responsibility of refunding Dragutin’s money.
While I feel true compassion and empathy for Dragutin, I also, believe that most everyone who purchases anything via the internet, either, has or will face similar situations.
I think the copywriter alone is responsible for Dragutin’s refund. Even if you were promised a commission for the recommendation it is quite likely that the copywriter would not have paid you if his intention was to defraud or default.
Honestly, I can not see how you should be held responsible. Dragutin had up to two months to complain to his cc/bank which was long enough for him to know if the copywriter would fulfill the contract or not.
Hello Eric,
You asked for an opinion and I have read much of the email you have received on the subject. According to your own email and normal business practice, I notice the following facts:
(1) You are an Affiliate, entitled to commissions on sales through your recommendations.
(2) You made the recommendation as an Affiliate, clearly hoping to get paid the commission. Not as a good neighbor in good faith, without the expectation of any profit other than to be helpful.
(3) The fact that you did not get paid is immaterial because that constitutes a debt that can be claimed in law.
(4) The guide lines that came about later and your reaction to them are commendable but that fact does not absolve you since they are not based on a new law. They are based on law that existed a the time of your recommendation.
(5) The fact that almost the whole community of affiliates works on the basis of willy-nilly accepting and promoting links in their websites in the hope of getting commissions, with or without checking out the principal, does not absolve anyone of those affiliates from doing the necessary due diligence before enticing people to part with their money based on the affiliates recommendation. Even a simple recommendation from a person to another is not just a sugesstion. A recommendation is more onerous, and more so in the commercial environment. Your customer may or may not have asked his neighbor to recommend someone for the job. However, when he came across your recommendation he relied on it based more on your ostensible experience and knowhow of internet transactions.
(6) In the circumstances, you do bear a responsibility towards this transaction and a certain liability attaches to it. The extent of your liability depends on whether you are jointly and severally liable with your principal.
(7) As an Affilaite, you also have a duty and the right to make your principal perform and carryout its responsibility to the satisfaction of your customer, or to make an outright refund.
(8) The fact that if you make a refund it will set a poor precedent is neither here nor there. You have to do the right thing. If it costs you then so be it. Affiliates must realise that their activies are commercial business activities and therefore should have the appropriate liability insurance coverage that normal brick and mortar businesses have to obtain.
(9) You are setup as a business, not a voluntary advisor. Even as a voluntary advisor working without the motive for monetary gain, a liability is attracted by their advise. A lot of people trust you and depend on your recommendations. As an Affiliate you owe it to them to ensure to the best of your ability that those who you are an Affiliate of are every bit capable, sincere and honest in their transactions. Affiliates are not exempt from doing some due diligence before recommending their principals to the public at large.
(10) In light of your business recommendations, perhaps you should re-assess all the principals that you are an Affiliate of before continuing to issue your recommendations to your unsuspecting customers. Remember that as an Affiliate, the concept of -Buyer Beware- applies to you before it applies to your customers.
(11) An overwhelming majority of those who wrote in and expressed their opinion for or against does not make their opinion correct. The right thing to do is to do it based on the facts seen in the light of the appropriate law that safeguards the buyer and the seller. Both legally and morally you have a duty to make your principal make a full refund. If the principal does not do so, then you have a business decision to make: whether to make the refund yourself. If you don’t then you are not necessarily absolved for trying. On the other hand, if you do, it will almost certainly be good and sound public relations and marketing exercise which could win you thousands of additional customers. As one of your respondents said: Do the right thing and refund the man his money.
(12) Finally, I leave you to make your own decision.
Thanks and regards, Mohamed
Eric, I wanted to write most of what Mohamed above wrote, but I also wanted to add that the reason that for the liability is the endorsement. Simply having an affiliate who purchases ad space for their own advertising doesn’t make you liable; actively endorsing does. It’s why endorsements are generally highly-paid advertising.
It kinda sucks that you might have to take the fall, but I would recommend trying to settle for 50% of the amount, as a court case will only make the legal system rich.
This person broke the cardinal rule of investing, in paying more than they could afford to lose, by the sound of it, but making a token payment as an out-of-court settlement (with a written understanding that this ends any liability on your part) might be the best way to go.
It doesn’t seem right, but my own experience shows that this is just a losing proposition on all sides.
In the future, don’t endorse unless someone pays you a deposit for the potential damages (which should be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, to say the least).
Oh, and… disclaimers are so routinely ignored in court cases that I don’t even bother with them unless people are signing them any more.
@Mohamed
sorry, but WHAT a crock of #@*%
You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.. but if you think that we can all go through life having to shut our mouths and not interact with others and make recommendations for fear of being liable for any wrongdoings of the recommended party.. then we all may as well just give up now.
The guy should have not paid up front.
He should also get an attorney to pursue the matter to punish the copywriter..NOT punish Eric.
So Mohamed when I recommend a certain food to you and you decide you want to try it.. you then have an adverse reaction to it.. from your logic.. I am liable.
Good luck with that. If this is how you think, you are deluded.
Geees.
Oh and one more thing Mohamed,
You said.. “(11) An overwhelming majority of those who wrote in and expressed their opinion for or against does not make their opinion correct.”
Yes, TRUE.. but that line of thought means that there is no right or wrong, just opinion..so we may as well all go and be lawless individuals and who cares if public opinion says otherwise.
But, the MAJORITY of people here say NO, DO NOT pay him.
That means that there is a small group here who have an entitlement mentality, thinking the world owes them something if things go wrong and they do not take responsibility for there own actions or take action against those that hurt us.
Basically, if the SMALL majority here think that Eric OWES this guy anything, then they really need to take a good long hard look at themselves.
Now, having said that.. I would probably give this person who got ripped off a small token payment or some free training etc and stipulate it is a gift only.
Very interesting analysis.
legally I feel that you are not responsible. But being a good business person I feel that the right thing to do is give back the money. It seems that you are very successful and $1344 should be a small price to pay to maintain your reputation cause in the business world that’s all you really have. You can pay this small fee now and maintain your success or fight this small fight and loose everything. Just swallow your pride and take this small loss as an investment for future success. In the web world, news spread like wildfire. You just gotta figure out what you rather people say, that you are a lying criminal or an honest business man.
P.S.
You should handle this without hidden agendas and set-ups because you don’t know whether or not how smart this person is or if he is willing to continue doing business with you. If he does then do what above said if not, one less person to stress about and your integrity and morals are in tact.
Well, you cannot be blamed for a contract which is not made by you or even you are not a party. So, its obvious that you are not liable to pay him anything.
I think the guy lost too much money and it made him a bit crazy…..well I think it would have been same effect for me also, if I loose $1344.
Hello Eric, you recommended the copywriter after you test him out and the results you get from the job he did you said it was worth the $197, so why not recommend him, right? So my opinion is that why should you pay for someone else fault, even if you recommended him you are not in control of his actions, and that’s why you shouldn’t be the one to pay the price, I feel it for Dragutin but he shouldn’t be asking you for a refund from a money that you didn’t collect, you didn’t took his cash and that’s why he shouldn’t ask you for it, but if you want to give him some of the money back it will be a kind gesture, it is not that you’re guilty why you’re helping him, is because maybe it wasn’t fair what the copywriter has done, even if Dragutin did made a mistake and paid upfront, the copywriter should have been honest
Hello Eric,
It’s quite unfortunate for what has happened BUT with all honesty and truthfulness, I believe you are not liable nor responsible of any refund to the said reader. As it’s always been your practice, you did recommend the services of the said copywriter based on your first-hand experience and also in good faith. Should any gains have been realized as a result of this salesletter, I don’t think the said reader would have cut you any bonus as a way of thanking you for a good referral. In the same vain, he has to swallow any losses as a result.
The bottomline is, whoever is the recipient of the said amount is the one who has to do the refund and in this scenario, it is the said Mr. copywriter.
That to me is the fairest deal.
Stay Blessed and don’t give up, for those who are for you are more than those who are against you.
Hi Eric,
I think sometimes when we trust someone and their judgement we tend to act on their recommendation without doing our own leg work so to speak. This gentlemen did trust your judgement and recommendation and as a result has gotten burnt. It is a difficult situation to be in. But at the end of the day he needs to realise that it was just a recommendation from your own experiance and you cant be held responsible for the fault of the copywriter.
Good luck.
Legally, you’re not liable. Ethically, you’re not liable.
I have to agree with the majority, you do not owe him a refund, however, in the future you should include a discalimer within your testimonials explaining that the testimonial is given because you expect to receive compensation thru affiliate commissions and that you actually have not done your
due dilligance as to confirming the honesty of the individual nor can you vouch for the quality of the service that will be provided !
/// tough choice eric, glad i don’t have to make it, and ur not liable, but i’d either pay him, or offer to split it. he seems like a reasonable customer and will repay you, perhaps, many times over in the future, who knows? kurt!
Howdy Eric,
There is a lot of good advice on here. However there is some not so good advice here too. I am of the opinion that if you pay part it may make you culpable for the entire amount as a court may see that as an admission of guilt.
Since you did not do anything wrong I would not pay anything.
There are several things that Dragutin did not do right. He should have checked the guy out better before the purchase. He should have asked for references from other customers besides you. (From 2 Cor. 13:1 In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established) Now that is good advice not only for an accusation, but also good for doing business with a stranger. Dragutin should have talked to other customers and verified that they were all happy too. He should have used Escrow, or made an agreement for 1/2 down and the rest on delivery that puts each person at equal risk. He should have started proceedings at an earlier stage to remedy the pay pal situation, Since it seems that you did not have a part in the deal, you aren’t liable for any of it, you can’t even give him back an affiliate fee since it was not an affiliate transaction. It seems to me that at the least, had Dragutin involved you from the beginning for advice on how to do this deal, you may have at least been able to give him some hints on how to do it the right way. But you didn’t even give him any personal advice gone bad. It was an un-compensated referral. Instead it seems that he has run out of options and your his last hope.
I got ripped off for $4000 by a really big Internet marketer a few years ago who told me I had a great story that needed to be put into a book. He was going to help me author my story by teaching me to release the author within me. Then he hooked me up with a writing coach who told me that this story was not marketable and I needed to discover my passion. When I tried to get my money back from this fast talking marketer he told me he had already paid the commission to the the coach he put me with, besides he did not offer a money back guarantee and I just needed to go back to the guy he set me up with and work it out.
I was bummed, still am, but I just chalked it up to stupidity on my part. I have learned that some people will tell you whatever it takes to separate you from your money and that they have no integrity. I just refuse to be like them. I now know that I will not be so gullible in the future. I would not buy anything without a credit card or paypal and if they don’t deliver in a timely manner I report them and ask for a charge back from the CC or paypal.
I do know this much about you Eric, your as honest as the day is long and you are also generous with your time, treasure and talent. I think it is a hard lesson to learn, but it is not the end of the world it is not your place to pay. This is not even a question of your integrity and by putting it out here in the public eye, you are keeping it in the light. That is a good thing.
Oh and just getting the copywriters name out in the light is a good thing too. This will come back to bite him in the long run. Isn’t the internet nice. Screw somebody and your name is forever tarnished.
Only other thing is to try small claims court. Of course I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV but I have met a few.
Onward and Upward,
Pete
Good to hear from you Pete!
I do not think you are liable, either. First of all, your word is not foolproof. There is ALWAYS the possiblity of being wrong about anything we promote or are connected with. That is the whole point of the disclaimers we are required to provide. I have been scammed, too, and guess what? It was my own fault. I followed someone’s recommendation which may have been made in good faith, but, like the old adage goes, “the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.”
I don’t get it. You said you spent $197.00 with Mr. Cole and this guy spent $1344.00. He should have started low,however everyone makes mistakes and we are responsible for them.You don’t owe him one red cent. If anything, send him a lolly pop.
Sorry Eric that you got mixed up in this. Small claims court is somewhat out of the picture as there are two different countries involved here UK and US. I say tough luck to the client. The service you received for USD197 was what you expected, you were satisfied. Looking at the copy he was presented from the writer, yeah I feel he was duped. I may not be able to write it myself, but hey it does not look any different than what is out there. It looked like a cut and paste job. USD1344 is a bit much. USD197 may be a stretch. Waiting more than 45 days to claim a refund from PayPal, maybe the guy did not read the fine print in PayPal’s rules, or he was hoping to get a better copy.
I’d say you are not responsible for anything. Your recommendation was before the new law was established. Sorry Eric, let it go. It would be a good Christian feeling to make restitution, but like you said - every Tom, Dick and Harry would be pounding down your door for refunds, from other legit web sites that would say: “tough luck - take it or leave it”, just because you recommended them.
Maybe you can help him write a copy as a good gesture for free, but he probably would ask for a refund for that also?
I agree with Roar completely, and I am also a Christian.
I feel that in the end its just money. And even though you are not legally responsible for refunding him the money, he did act on what you said. And since he did and in good faith believed that he would get the same type of service that you did. He was expecting to get what you got and he didn’t. So he did what he should of done, all the other ways of trying to get his money back. Nothing happen.
He must be new at this to pay all the money up front. But he acted on good faith and in the end that is what counts.
Maybe offering him products or your time would be better than just handing him over the money. Help him so he doesn’t get taken again.
This is one of the reasons for the new ruling because this is probably happening to more than just you.
Celebrities give testimonials all the time.
Do you chase after them for a refund if the product did not work for you.?
kim….Hi from another of the same but different.
Yea so i just wanted to let u know that hairdresser u said was great? well i went to see her …took two months to get an appointment, so I’m thinking that you must know what you’re talking about….right.
I asked just for a trim on the style that i already had that was looking shaggy…..omg she chopped my hair like no one else….remember you said she really knew her stuff and could really highlight my hair and make me look like a kid again? Wrong..but she said that she did everything that i asked of her and no refunds…..so I’m think-in’ …..you refund it right. by the was she pricey’…$375.00. What do you say when they all ready took the first cut and right in front?…..No way put it back that’s way shorter than I requested.
I knew you’ed understand so i’m sure you’re all ready writing the check and lickin’ the stamp to make things right….huh….?
Don’t think so even though you feel bad that my experience wasen’t at all like yours but …lets face it you have no control what that , or anyother person, including but not limited to ANYONE!!!! that is of course unless you’re my ex-husband and well he did for a while till the yo girl wake up light blinded me.
all right so you don’t know me and back to you so this is just another possible situation that would example that ultimately explains that we are human….and you might look at my new doo and think wow…that cut looks soooooo great on you when i’ve been crying my eyes out over the whole thing. It seems to me that 1st. hella lot of money for one sales letter and that this also is quite ironic since the materials he’s trying to market are saying what!!!!? he needs to read what he’s selling..by the way one of the “gurus” that He likes I don’t particurally care for even though I like the total message that is the bottom line.
We are our own maker so even though Eric had satisfactory results and “mr.hey dude look at all the corespondance writing that was done” I’m thinking phoey with the ghost you have plenty to say yourself”
The feeling that i have from all the correspondance …..is….there was no scam here. He’s obviously written for others who had total sattisfaction…i can’t get no so i’m glad some have , but back to reality are all the satisified consumers responsible to refund whomever, that is not me and has diferent tastes, likes and dislikes…etc? If that is the bottom line there’s a lot of people out there that need to send me checks.
Let’s b real and thankfull sthe stepford wies was just (so far!) a movie and we live in a country where being different is what keeps us spinning!
I hope that whoever reads my reply to kim, which is ment to double as a reply to eric, dosen’t in any way
shape or form offend anyone. sincerely. It is upsetting that he feels that his money was wasted, he wanted the ghost to go by the sales letter and just change some verbage which I thought he did….I’m thinking he really didn’t want it changed at all afterall.
Dori are you a nice person? I could use some of the money i wasted trying new things that didn’t work out so i guess it’s OK for me to send you a current list for refund? what the heck is that? I want to know why some advertise that they were bla, bla, bla now they’re ;-)bla, ;-)bla, bla because they met that guy that drives around in that farrari and asked what was his profession and the next week that $$$ guy showed him this formula that bla, bla make him/her, bla bla…for free!!! why are they not willing to do the same for….lets’ say ME???
This could go onfor ever now couldn’t it?…..but if that farrari is reading this and needs a legit. new charity i’m it!
kim….you made an assumption in which u are assuming he is new to this,which makes just have to ask u. How long have you been marketing? are you making decent money? you must be to say such things, so then i ask you why don’t you refund him the money? just call it a donation!
Thanks for letting me run with it and if you’re reading this without just skip scrolling down a 2nd thank you!
All feedback/remarks openly welcome…be openminded! to all! Peace, joy, abundance, goodwill, prosperty and remember there’s plenty to go around and old dogs don’t need tricks.
I’m just trying to take it all in learn, grow and find freedom.
Not only should the buyer beware, but also the seller. I recently sold surveillance equipment to two different people. It turned out that the credit cards were used fraudulently. I did everything I was supposed to do. I waited to get a confirmation email from the processor that the transaction was successful and then ordered and shipped the products. A week later I received a call from my merchant banker saying the suspected fraud. I was able to stop one of the unit but the other had already been delivered. The next thing I know, the merchant processing company has pulled the amount of the transaction out of my bank account and froze my account. It’s been three weeks now and I am still trying to get my merchant gateway up and running, I’m out $2300.00 for the cost of the equipment. And it looks like the only ones who are protected is the Credit Card owner, and the merchant processor, even though they are the ones who processed and verified the transaction. The whole thing has made me a little reluctant to be a IM. But, I’m determined to make this work.
Back to Eric’s question, I do not think you did anything wrong. And you definitely are not liable or obligated to pay the gentleman for his loss.
Respectfully,
Phil
Eric,
This is not even a close call, you are not legally or morally responsible in the least. Unfortunately, Dragutin bears half of the responsibility in this case. He was not aggressive enough in his dealings with Nicolas. He had sufficient time to request a refund from Paypal the way he was being treated, but it was HIS choice to wait… and wait some more.
On the other hand, Nicolas Cole is not a good businessman if he doesn’t realize his reputation is much more important than a refund. And if $1344 is a lot for Nicolas to refund to an unsatisfied customer who’s acting reasonably, then he’s not doing very well finacially to begin with — maybe because this is not the first time he pulls something similar.
We all feel bad for Dragutin, but asking you for the money reflects poorly on him. He had a lot to do with the present situation and he knows it.
Perhaps the lesson here is that marketeers shouldn’t recommend any service or product that doesn’t have a 30 or 60-day refund policy, no matter how good our experience with such service has been in the past. Nicolas’ website says nothing about a refund.
I personally Don’t have the funds to do purchases. I agree with you that the recipient of the funds should be the one to refund payment. You could refund your percentage of involvement in the transaction, but this probably is not reverent. I wish you good luck in your solution of the endeavor. KEN
Eric,
Let’s say the fellow paid the writer $10,000.00 up front. Would he still want you to reimburse him for all of that. If you feel real bad for the guy, and out of the goodness of your heart, you might offer him 2 or 3 hundred bucks to ease his pain that was really caused by his lack of business acumen, if not his stupidity.
It’s an interesting point.
I’ve already mentioned that if the amount had been much lower, I’d have probably just paid it.
But ultimately, the amount of money doesn’t dictate morality, does it?
I suppose it shouldn’t matter whether it was $10 or $100,000. Whatever is the RIGHT thing to do should apply regardless of the dollar amount.
Or does our society shape our ethics based on certain dollar amounts? And if so, what are those amounts? And is that truly moral?
From my reading, it seems that you brokered a deal in which both you (the broker) and the buyer got burned. If that is the case then you certainly do bear some of the burden. If that is the case, I would negotiate a fair settlement with the buyer.
If you did not broker the transaction then you have no LEGAL liability.
Trust, however, is an important asset. We don’t usually become jaded until after our trust is broken. Innocent young people don’t have the street smarts to see through the myriad of potential scams out there. If they can’t trust a self proclaimed expert, and an honest broker, like you, who can they trust?
BY the same token, blind faith in another mere mortal is to ignore your own responsibility to do “due diligence”. Perhaps that should be your next big product. A newbies course on Due Diligence (aka Risk Management).
You acted in good faith……the hamburger I buy from my favorite burger joint may not be good anymore….
A business person needs to understand that no one can control the actions of other suppliers….
He needs to take action against the person he “actually” did the transaction with….legal or otherwise…
I am not an attorney. I am a customer service manager. As I see it the issue lies with the claimant and “he” needs to address the matter with the copywriter. If your recommendation is to be considered a liable factor then all advertising in all media might be considered responsible for products and services recommended. There is no need to try and prove that you are more than generous with providing information at no cost and while your recommendation of the copywriter turned sour has anyone considered why? Maybe the copywriter has a legitimate reason for failing.
Caveat emptor, buyer beware is about all I can say about this. I empathise with both you and the Emailer but at what point does the emailer not take responsibility for his actions and decisions. It was his decision with the information at hand to use this copywriter and unfortunately this time got burned. Next time knowing what he knows now maybe he will act more urgently and decisively and get his money back from the right person
I am sorry you feel this way, it took me a long time to make money as well, over two years and a bankruptcy later I am still hanging on. I have found a way to make money, and there is no shortcuts. I tried for two years to take the shortcut the guru’s sell you on, THEY DON’T WORK!! The only thing that works is HARD WORK. If you are willing to put in the time, you will reap the rewards.
> 1) Am I legally liable for the products I endorse or promote
> as an affiliate?
From what I have read, imo, you have done nothing wrong in this case. It sounds like you have probably already done what you need to do from the typical business stand point.
> 2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
If it were ME and I am making as much money and selling as many products and services as you apparently are… instead of giving this person cash (and since you also OWN lots of products and services)… I would apologize and sympathize and offer to give him $1344 worth of my products and/or services for FREE that I normally charge for because I truly do want to be helpful. (It is just electrons, if you know what I mean!!) For example, if I sell web hosting or have some kind of a paid monthly members site that he can benefit from, I would offer to give him a free lifetime membership.
If he is not happy with my generous offer for a problem that happened between him and a 3rd party, then at least I know I genuinely tried to help him and I can not help it if he refuses my generosity.
“For example, if I sell web hosting or have some kind of a paid monthly members site that he can benefit from, I would offer to give him a free lifetime membership.”
That’s certainly an option.
This is the first time I’m posting on you blog…I have one thing to say: I never recommend a fellow that I don’t trust. It eventually has an impact on my reputation of a guy whose most opinions are correct and fair-play. If I were you I give at least a partial refund…just because I was wrong recommending the wrong person.
Hi Eric,
No You are right, you would start a land slide effect that would rumble throughout the internet.
The agreement was not between you and this person. They are barking up the wrong tree.
He needs to direct his case towards the person who they contracted with.
What happened to the Buyer Beware in this transaction.
Just because someone recommends someone else they need to do Due Diligence in all matters of money.
Did they check out his work and any comment on the net. Just Google about anyone and most of the time you’ll get the answer you were looking for. Why would they pay for a project in advance. There are so many places he could of put his project up for bid and would of been able to pick from the cream of the crop…
Okay for now. Eric please keep a stiff upper lip and continue to do the Good Work you have always done.
Your Friend
Don
Hi Eric,
I really feel sorry for poor guy!
Eric I also know that you’re heavily burdened by
this unfortunate issue,but be assured you won’t
be held responsible for the failed transaction
you’d recommended,neither your reputation at stake!!
Don’t ever make a refund even out of compassion,because this is morally wrong & will create a bad precedent and encourage future abuse.
What you can do now to help the victim is try to contact the writer and trash things out.
Good Luck & God Bless,
Mike
I know how the injuried party feels and have found all most every one of these work at home, affliates, and etc to be total scams with the only one making money is the instigator that preys on people’s greed to make money or having to resort to do something quickly to make ends meet. I have lost thousands to these hustlers that provided nothing to match their claims. It is my desire if I get elected and become Governor of my state to put everyone of these hustlers in prison with Bernie Matoff and throw away the key. Eric is different in that he provides information and a service to his subscribers. As a politician, I don’t endorse anyone, because you have no control of what that person does and this questions your judgement by the voters should that person commits fraud, adultry, or child sex crime. No Eric, in this case you were used by the one you endorsed to get endorsements for self gain, but it hurt your reputation.
At the end of the day, if you profit from your affiliations with these people - at the very very least you should compensate that customer with the profit your recieved from being an affiliate of such a shonky business man,
Realisiticaly, just because he didnt screw you around on your first and only dealing with him, what makes you think he didnt just do that to gain your trust so you would advertise for him?
A professional marketer does not affiliate with another company unless they have a proven track record. 1 sales letter for you does not equate to a proven track record.
Bottom line, he screwed someone out of $1344 because of you.
The sad part is you should pay him, but if you do everyone else will be on the bandwagon.
In future check out your affiliates a bit better before staking your own business on it.
If the person has a problem with the copywriter he should getn his money back from the copywriter.You have already fulfilled all yor ethical obligations by not continuing to endorse the copywriter unless at some point you specificaly in writing guaranteed the copywriters work.If that were the case then pay him.You are a successful internet enterpneur who carries a certain amount of implied trust to the buyers of your programs to people who respect the VALUE of your marketing expertise.Obviously more information from the “victim” and you is needed to make a more definitive opinion.
You owe him nothing more than a sincere apology. That this copywriter did a good job for you and not for him is on the copywriter. He should have done his own research, and probably given the copywriter a much smaller, less important project to start with to evaluate for himself if the writer was up to snuff for his needs. “Buyer Beware” should be everyone’s watch-words. We all live and breath by our own opinions, and sometimes life’s lessons get a little expensive. That’s how we all learn. You do not owe him any money. That would be paying him for making a mistake. What would he learn? That he got away with it, and I believe he would do it again and again.
I lost $1,000 last year on months of procrastanation, way past the 30 day return policy. I was told I would have my 10 active websites completed and delivered way before the 30 days were up. I finally did get the products months later.I did not feel the product was worth the investment, but it was to late to ask for a refund. I work in the construction industry. In the construction industry you have to give the customer a 1 year warranty. If, years later, the customer discovers a significant fault that was hidden from plain site, the customer has until 1 year after discovery, and not just the 1 year warranty.
On the internet everything is different. If you wait past your refund date, you are stuck. It’s no one else’s fault but your own. I lost the $1,000 and just chalk it up to experience. To this date, I have not made one penney off of those 10 websites.
Eric, you are not liable legally or morally, in my opinion.
You are not legally liable.
The buyer should have done what you did, and just got one sales letter as a test, for around $197. Payment should have been via escrow, or deposit and full payment on completion. That’s just sensible trading.
I don’t believe you’re ethically liable either. Your recommendation was on the basis of the quality and reliability of the copywriter that YOU had experienced. As you have stated, most affiliates recommend products they have no clue about!
Even though Dragutin is demanding the full cost, he will most likely not expect it.
I suggest you let him know that you are not liable for his loss, as you were not party to specifically what was contracted, nor the price. Therefore you may offer him say 1/3rd of the total, on compassionate grounds only.
Then put some pressure on Cole to reimburse Dragutin and also yourself. (Any recovered funds should go to Dragutin - up to the balance.)
“wise as serpents - harmless as doves”
Eric, you are not responsible for any refund for giving a reccomendation for a good job you received from said copywriter, that is strictly between him and the copywriter. I was scammed for $1500.00 and I know the feeling wanting to get a refund from my scammer I just had to suffer the lost. My opinion Erick
Regards
Jack
No, you should not pay the guy. You are not liable in any way as there was never a contract between you and him. It’s an unfortunate experience the guy went through but if anyone is to pay the refund it’s the copywriter who was paid in the first place.
However as a learning point, I suggest you check out a guy before recommending him - even if he’s done a good job for you. In this case he probably did a good job for you, knowing FULLY WELL that he stood a high chance of getting an endorsement from a high profile person like you. So please check the people out before you endorse them. That way you avoid such unwelcome complications.
You are not even remotely responsible to pay this guy anything. He was reaching for the last straw because of his pain but there is no way you have any obligation. He must deal with the loss. Most of us have been in that situation but we would never try to get the money from the one who made a recommendation. That is unthinkable in my mind.
Thanks Eric for sharing your dilemma with us. It does give us a valuable lesson on affiliate liability. And reading the emails to/from Nicholas, has brought me thinking: there’s some sad story behind those glittering, credit-card outpouring sales letters!
What happened to Dragutin is indeed quite unfortunate. Yet what he is trying to do to you now is worse. Clearly, he is so desperate and thinks you’re also liable for what was solely his own decision in hiring the copywriter; an act you knew nothing about.
I think if you grant him the “refund”, it’s like the end of rational thinking or the idea of personal responsibility. FTC or no FTC rules, we are supposed to be rational beings and are solely responsible for our own personal (voluntary) decisions or individual acts.
It would have been acceptable for Dragutin to ask for mercy and help from you and others to get back his $$$; to which many I guess would respond positively.
All the best,
Angelina
Obviously if you pay the gentleman the money he has complained of losing, you will open yourself up to every other person who every feels ripped off based on a recommendation you could make, in error, about someone you believe in. Believing in someone is good, but is only an opinion, and that is all you offered, an opinion. It is up to each individual to decide for themselves whether an opinion is accurate, and the only way to gauge that value is to test the weight of that opinion against other markers of indication such as researching other testimonials made by other individuals, and looking at any information that might be available publically through the BBB or other reliable indexes of assurance.
Therefore, to blindly spend 1300 + dollars based on any single expression of faith made in good conscience by a person who had a successful result, and thus made a recommendation, is still an unwise and foolish expenditure which unfortunately leaves the spender short of cash when the result is unsatisfactory. But if my friend said to me, hey I got this business card designed and made for 5 dollars over there at the store on the corner, and so I go there to get the same, there may be a different designer there that day, or the special 5 dollar sale might be over, or they might even do the job, but I don’t like what they did. In the end, my argument is with the people who did the work badly or not at all, not with the person who I met on the street and showed off his new business card. I would be an idiot to think that just because he was proud of his business card, and got it for 5 dollars, that HE should pay me back when the company he bought it from botches up the job.
Don’t Pay Him.
No you are not responsible. Refunding him could open up a can of worms. I think the repercussions would be devastating. It could turn the whole affiliate marketing world upside down. Don’t do it!
Hi Eric: Unfortunately, as far as I can tell I do not believe you to be liable for the monies paid to another vendor. You mentioned in your post that you didn’t receive a commission for this particular sale and that raises another point about liability on your end as well. Sounds like you have also been a victim of this copywriter by not receiving what was owed to you, so maybe finding others in the same boat at yourself and the person who wrote the request for a refund to you should find others that have been ripped off by this copywriter and file a class action lawsuit. I would definately pull your endorsement of this guy, if you haven’t already. I understand that Dragutin is upset about losing that kind of money and so would anyone. According to what you stated, you did what you were supposed to do subsequent to the Dec 1, 2009, FDA roll-out so I do not believe there is any monies owed to Dragutin from you. Legal action should be taken against this copywrite so he can’t do this to any more people. This is a very bad time for many people and unfortunatley, those who are having problems are doing whatever it takes to cover themselves including ripping others who are probably not doing any better than they are.
Hi Eric,
I think that the alarm bells should have started ringing when he was asked for so much money upfront!!!! Nobody pays the full price until they have the goods. he didn’t check him out on elance or whatever where there would have been more up to date expletives on Cole. He didn’t control Cole by setting a timetable for the work, I’m no expert but I would have thought it should have been done and dusted in 10 days any longer and he should have run screaming to paypal. On that basis he does not merit any financial rebate from you. You made a recomendation based on work that cole did for you, if he did good work for you then you were entitled to make that recommendation. You could refund him as a gesture of goodwill but then that would be setting a dangerous precedent and one that you might want to check the legal implications of first.
Have fun,
Mike
Well what could i say being a tottal newbe> for one this type of thing is upsetting to hear as i,am trying affilate marketing with not much succees yet! In any event i have myself learning from all over the scope of online internet marketing! Say that my be my niche re:Entrepreneurs evolving and the scope of internet marketing! Yea thats it ok no one still this i,am going to keep trying to make this thing work out!Now Eric I think you are a solid stand alone>ie:a internet marketer who can think for himself and as well, the well being of others! If you have supported this guy who did not follow up as “HE HIMSELF SHOULD HAVE” well in my opintion he is the one in contempt of wrong doing and givin the fact that as soon as you found out and looked into it, an sent him proper notice THAT you no longer support him,brother to brother you have done your part! Now as a hole do we as peoplesoftheinternet.com do we let him go on or do we track him in his new id and recincile it?
Well, If you have promoted it on your site and did not put a disclaimer of any kind, you might be legally liable to what ever referral you did.
Ethically, you could tell the person that you recommended the Copywriter based on your good experience with him. So the person who is asking for refund should take up the matter with the Copywriter not you. Do not give in easy for the matter lies between the two.