Am I Liable for This? You Be the Judge…
Yesterday I received an email from a reader who had hired a copywriter based on my recommendation in late 2009.
Unfortunately, he was not happy with the sales letter he received from the copywriter, and the copywriter allegedly did not complete the work he had been paid to do.
About seven weeks ago, the reader wrote to me about his negative experience with this copywriter. It was the second compaint I had received from readers regarding this copywriter, and I had also received an additional warning from a fellow marketer.
At that point, I pulled my endorsement of the copywriter, and made it clear on my website that I am no longer recommending him.
Now yesterday I received another email from the reader…
Hi Eric,
I hope you are well.
Just to let you know I contacted BBB.org, PayPal and my credit card company.
The business of Nicholas Cole is not registered with BBB.org.
The complaint with PayPal can only be filed within 45 days from the date of payment and that period is exceeded due to Nicholas’ procrastination and the story telling.
My credit card company is not able to provide the refund of $1344 I paid to Nicholas for the letters he never wrote as there is an involvement from PayPal between them and the vendor.
I acted on your recommendation to choose services of Nicholas Cole as you described him trustworthy and reliable.
From all people and businesses who gave testimonials on his web site only one responded on my enquiry.
The others simply ignored my enquiry and some of the have URL error.
I do not want to lose $1344 USD for nothing as I acted in full honesty and transparency and am asking you to provide me with the full refund.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Kind regards
Dragutin
As you’ve seen, the reader is asking me to compensate him for the payment he made to the copywriter.
I should mention that I do appreciate his polite tone. If he had sent a “flame” I wouldn’t be featuring it here.
I asked him for some additional information, and here is a copy of his communications with the copywriter:
So there are really two questions at stake here…
1) Am I legally liable for the products I endorse or promote as an affiliate?
2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
The ramifications are very significant, because the answers to these questions affect not only this situation but also…
- Everything I endorse/promote.
- Everyone who endorses anything or promotes something as an affiliate.
This is why the Internet marketing world was in a tizzy last December when the FTC rolled out their new guidelines for endorsements and testimonials.
So let’s answer the first question, as it applies to this situation:
Am I legally liable?
According to the FTC, endorsers may be liable for false or unsubstantiated claims made in an endorsement, or for failure to disclose material connections between the advertiser and endorsers.
Let’s talk about false or unsubstantiated claims.
If I had blindly promoted the product/service without checking it out first (as many affiliates do in this industry, and as I have done in the past on occasion), then I believe I might bear liability if my claims did not match up to the product. Let that be a word of warning to all affiliate marketers: You ARE responsible for what you say/write.
However, in this case I was speaking from first-hand experience. I had actually paid this copywriter $197 to write a sales letter for me, and I felt that the product I received was a good value for the amount that I had paid.
Therefore, my claim was substantiated, and I made the recommendation in good faith that the copywriter would provide similar value for other customers.
Now let’s talk about disclosing material connections.
I initially wrote my recommendation in October of 2009, which was prior to the new FTC guidelines going into effect.
When the new guidelines went into effect on December 1st, I added an “Affiliate & Material Connection Statement” to my website, which I believe satisfies this requirement. If I am shown otherwise, then I might need to get more aggressive about disclosing material/affiliate relationships.
In this particular case, I never did get paid an affiliate commission for the sale in question. So I’m not sure how that affects the material connection from a legal standpoint. Am I still an affiliate if I’m getting scammed too?
OK, so in my opinion I am NOT legally liable for the copywriter’s failure in this situation.
But that brings us to the next question…
What is the right and ethical thing to do?
Although I am someone who believes in absolute truth, and a clear distinction between right and wrong… the realm of ethics can still be grey at times.
I’ve tried to put myself in the customer’s shoes.
If I were him, I probably would have written the same email to me.
I’ve been a victim of scams in the past, so I’m familiar with what he is feeling. It’s one of the worst feelings that the pallet of human emotions can paint. Anger, frustration, regret, self-loathing… all rolled into one. The only way out of it is to go through the grief cycle, and reach a point of acceptance.
From the look of my dear reader’s emails, he’s gone through the denial and anger stages, and has now come around to the bargaining stage. Like I said, I’d be bargaining too.
I see this from two perspectives… justice, and compassion.
From the justice standpoint, I believe it would not be right for me to give him the refund out of my own pocket. Would justice be served by this? No.
Now… IF I had been paid a commission, I do think partial justice could be served if I refunded that commission to the customer. But in this case, there is no commission to speak of.
From a compassion standpoint, I’d love to help out my reader.
If we were talking about a much smaller dollar amount, I probably would have just offered to pay for it (or more likely… I wouldn’t have gotten an email about it in the first place). But $1344 is a decent chunk of change.
We all know the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
If it were the other way around, would I want him to pay for my refund out of his pocket? Yes I would, at this moment in time. But after more time has passed, I would most likely come to the conclusion that justice would not be served by an otherwise innocent affiliate paying me out of his own pocket.
In other words, my sense of justice would eventually trump my desire for recompense. (The two are not mutually exclusive. The victim should be paid back in order for justice to be served, but taking the money from the wrong person is not the solution)
So I do not think it is my moral obligation to pay for the customer’s loss…
But I want to know what YOU think!
I told the customer I would post this on my blog, and take my reader’s opinions into consideration.
I want to know:
What would you do in my situation, and why?
I am absolutely willing to pay a full refund to the customer if the arguments in his favor outweigh the arguments against.
I wish I could just err on the side of compassion, but obviously such a precendent could open me up to a lot of headaches and abuse due to other customers taking advantage of my leniency. If that is the outcome, then I will probably change some things about how I run my business.
Post your comments below. Please do not “trash” me OR the customer or even the copywriter. That’s not the point of this. At the same time I am not necessarily looking for support. I want your honest opinion, even if you are not on my side.
Obviously this is not something that needed to be made public, but I am doing so because I think we can have a good constructive conversation. This is an important topic that affects all Internet marketers. So let us know what you think.
Thanks for your input!
UPDATE: I’ve now posted the conclusion to this saga here:
Eric,
First, I do believe you are NOT responsible.
I do have a question…have YOU tried to contact Nicholas? Maybe there is a somewhat valid reason for his non response.
I believe if I had recommended someone, I would be hard after them.
Second, I believe Dragutin should have never paid that much upfront for anything.
My suggestion would be to offer Dragutin one of your products for free. Just as a token of good faith?
Dave
Good question.
I contacted him previously on behalf of my marketing friend who had warned me about him after my initial recommendation. Nicholas did get that one worked out, but it took awhile. I also did some googling before doing this blog post, and found that several other people have written similar complaints about him around the internet. I’m seeing a strong pattern here, and it’s obvious that Nicholas has a problem. I’m not yet convinced that he’s a con-artist, per se. It could be that he has personal issues, family problems, a handicap, who knows. But he’s got a history of making excuses and not getting jobs done. Do I do feel this post is justified at this time.
I have also tried contacting him again today, and hopefully he will reply. Next step will be to attempt to call him on the phone.
This indeed is a difficult situation Eric.
Legally you are not responsible - nor are you responsible morally. We are each responsible for our own decisions no matter who “recommended” anything.
You spent around $200 with this person and gave him a job within his expertise - your friend spent closer to $1400 and perhaps put this copywriter out of his depth. You had no way of knowing that - if that was the case.
The compassionate point of view alone would be easy with your standards, but as you point out. It would also be way too easy for others to take advantage of you.
Ignoring the situation would put your reputation in jeopardy - but you are not doing that.
This client does need to face the fact that:
You are not liable - he made the decision to spend $1400 on this copywriter. Business deals ALWAYS come with risk.
You made the recommendation based on your experience, so your recommendation was made in good faith.
Once he is able to face his responsibility in this situation, I trust this client will not expect you to compensate him for a decision HE made.
I think that if you DO make some compensation out of compassion (God will lead you there), the above realities need to be clear in this clients mind FIRST.
To learn from this situation:
Perhaps we all need to use the same wording that is used in the stock markets with our future recommendations. (Past experience does not guarantee future results).
I trust this helps a little Erik - I pray for God’s wisdom for you in this situation.
You are right that I had no idea someone was spending $1400 with the writer.
For one thats a lot of money to let go to waste. I think you should pay him you will make that back in minutes cause you know how, so yes you should you recommended it and he was following your instructions. Man this internet stuff is harder then many folks realize. You didnt take his money and run but still it was recommended by you and some folks are richer in can take a lost but some cant and if you know the ends and out of this internet system. You teach poeple how to make a living on the internet. In that’s a lesson for you too.People give up their whole life saving for this stuff Pay him. Thats my opinion
no
Just pay the man. You were smart to bring this issue to your blog readers, which will only increase your credibility with your target audience. You’ll end up getting that $1344 paid back in spades if you do more than is:
a) legally required of you.
b) expected of you ethically.
In short, more people on the fence will go with your recommendations in the future based upon how well you handle this. Yes, it’ll be tough to pay for some other persons mistake. But “Just do it.”
I, have to agree you are not responsible for other people when their actions speak louder than words. I agree with David he is right all the way to the bank…
Hi Eric,
It appears that you acted in good faith. Morally you are not liable for refunding any money, and from a legal standpoint, you are a third party and likely have no liability in connection with the matter. (That would be the case in the UK, I believe, but I am not a lawyer.)
I do not understand why the customer is not chasing the service provider through legal channels for recovery of the money. That is what I would do, and here in the UK, that’s pretty easy to do.
It may also be the case that the credit card company and/or PayPal can be sued in connection with the matter.
Hi David,
According to me the client that lost his money is not willing to pay also for legal representation, as the copywriter could be also broke, and from this point of view he wouldn’t see any of his money back. Not only - he will most probably have to pay even more for a legal representative…
I personally “refund” these types of requests almost without question - simply because my name is attached and many people don’t really care who they “legally” may have “paid” …
In one specific example, I have a product I sell that I have setup to pay 100% of the sales price directly to non-profit organizations (could just as easily be affiliates). So I receive “zero” money for these transactions (the cash doesn’t even pass through my hands). But I receive about 1-3 refund requests each month - which I refund without question.
My circumstances are different than yours; and my choices are different. But they are choices that I choose to make because my “name” is attached to the transaction.
In most “normal” circumstances where a referral is being made, there is compensation. Refunds and refund policies vary from company to company, but they exist. And to the extent that they exist, they are simply a “cost of doing business”…
How we choose to treat our customers becomes part of our identity - aka who and what we are. If we choose to treat our customers and generally honest people, those few refund requests we get will generally be from honest people. There will always be the few that are trying to “scam” or “play” the system - but in general, I prefer to simply refund them and never do business with them again.
I hear ya. I generally always honor refunds on my own products, even when customers are trying to rip me off. But $1344 for someone else’s product feels different…
You are right. If I hire a contractor to put in some electrical work and pay him for a good job, then pass his name on to someone else out of kindness, that does NOT mean that if THEY do not like his work that I should have to pay the bill.
Many people in our society have such a sense of entitlement. They want everything handed to them for nothing no matter where it comes from. This is spoiled behavior and does a person more harm than good in their life.
Doing the right thing means sometimes saying “no”. Don’t give the money, Eric.
If saving money is so important, marketers should spend more time studying the other videos that you made on copywriting and “just do it” themselves.
You are not responsible in any way whatsoever. You gave a recommendation in good faith based on your past experience with the copywriter and that’s the end of it. You did not guarantee the copywriter’s work in any way, and you also promptly removed the recommendation once you learned about the problems he was creating.
I can see the reader’s point as well, but that does not make you liable in any way, shape or form, and I must say that the reader has alot of nerve even asking YOU to refund his money. I can sympathize with the guy too, but you should not pay. Its not your problem.
He should have checked the copywriter’s profile or searched more thoroughly for similar recommendations, especially before paying for any services up front.
The lesson to us readers is clear… always check people out as thoroughly as possible before using them. Eric, didn’t you mention something before about a forum where people can find copywriting services? If there were any complaints about anyone, that would be quite visible there.
If you still feel guilty about this situation for some reason, perhaps you could send that copywriter an email on the reader’s behalf, explaining that you have recommended him to your own readers and how he is making you look bad, and maybe you can convince him to either get the work done or refund the customer’s money?
If you did that much then you’d be going above and beyond the call of duty in my book. But as far as you personally refunding the money? No way.
yeah I did mention a copywriter list on the warrior forum. And yup… I just checked and Nicholas does have some complaints over there.
Hi Eric,
I agree with the majority of the other posters here in that you are not liable or obligated to refund this person’s money.
To give an analogy, this would be like recommending a restaurant to some friends, telling them you had great meal and good service. They took your recommendation but their experience was that they had a bad meal and horrible service. The restaurant manager would not refund their meal price so they come to you and say you owe them the price of their meal because they went there on your recommendation.
You acted in good faith and based your recommendation on a good experience. So you do not owe this person anything.
Sean
Eric
You only recomended the copywriter it was up to the buyer to check the copywriter first and to see if other people also recomended that copywriter. Your not responsible for payment, never pay up front a deposit perhaps but check work before payment that way you will not get ripped of.
Eric,
You absolutely must NOT issue a refund on behalf of the crook who stole from someone else. Your analysis of the situation is spot-on. Had you been paid by the copywriter, I would say you should refund your commission. In this case, however, you acted on good faith and personal experience.
You withdrew your endorsement immediately upon finding out the guy wasn’t worthy of it and I believe that the most that anyone, legally, could ask you to do.
If there is any further moral or ethical obligation on your part, it is to take action to alert the IM community to Nicholas’s fraud and do everything within your power to help the victim recover his money.
I would not feel that you are obligated to pay him. But, I think it might be in your best interst to contact the copywriter as a “neutral third party” and see if something can be resolved (either work satisfaction or a refund).
Tell Mr Cage that you HAVE recommended him in the past, AND brought him sales, but you will refuse to recommend him again if this cannot be resolved.
Then report back to dragutin with your findings (or lack of).
Charlie
Working on it now. I’m a little more than a neutral 3rd party though, because the copywriter has put my reputation in jeopardy too…
Hi Erc,
I would think about my reputation first, and all the rest comes second.
And even if you are not legaly obliged to refund the payment, you could do one of these two:
1) Write the copy letters yourself for the guy who followed your recommendation and lost his cash
2) Pay him the cash he lost, even if you are not responcible, or obliged.
This will make you stand out as a very honest and conserned for his custommers marketer, and your reputation will soar even more.
Place a “NB” on your sites, stating that no matter who, and/or what you recommend, people should be aware that you are not guaranteing the results, and caveat emptor always.
My 2 cents
Dear ERIC,
David pretty much said what i think, it’s just ashame that these (A#*HOLE’S) WALK AMONK’S US WHO ARE TRYING TO BETTER OURSELFVES WITH YOUR GREAT HELP AND ADVICE. THE MAN’S A FOOL HE’LL LOSE MORE THAN A $1,000.00 ODD $ THROUGH THE BAD PR. REMEMBER THE NAME PEOPLE NICHOLAS COLE AND LET US KNOW ANY OTHER RIP OFF’S YOU COME ACROSS. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
WES
Eric,
The legal side here seems pretty cut and dry. Simply recommending someone else’s services does not make you liable for their actions. The moral side of this is of course another matter. That part is between you and your conscience Eric. I would give you the same advice I give anyone facing a moral dilemma…What’s your gut telling you? You’re the one that must look yourself in the mirror each day. I sense you to be a man of integrity Eric. Follow your heart (whatever it’s saying) and you’ll make the right choice.
“What’s your gut telling you?”
That’s what my wife said. It’s a good question.
Well Eric, the fact you’re even entertaining this question, tells us there’s obviously a part of you feeling inclined to refund his money. And putting myself in your shoes, my gut would most likely be sending the same messages. Lets face it Eric…Who wants to feel responsible, either directly, or even indirectly, for someone else’s misfortune? I don’t, and I’m sensing you don’t either. If any part of your gut…aka (Heart/Conscience), is telling you to reimburse, then I think you should. Having said this, I’m sure you’ve already considered the can of worms you’re potentially opening by doing so. You may have to be much more selective about your recommendations in the future, clearly state disclaimers, etc.. It’s sad to think anyone would try taking advantage of you in the future because of this incident. But I’m sure the possibility is very real. Good luck
eric if i told you to marry my x-wife . she’s a great person and it does not work out. I guess i should be liable for everything since i mentioned it.. NOT
Eric,
Since you were not compensated or a direct representative of the person In question, you are not liable (my opinion, not legal opinion) to repay the person for his loss. First of all the person who was taken advantage of should have only made a small deposit prior to the work being done with the balance due upon approval of the final product. He should have had an iron clad written contract spelling out the fulfillment conditions. He should have arranged for an unbiased 3rd party to act as an arbitrator and to disperse the funds upon satisfactory completion. Even if he only had a contract, and had only made a deposit, he would still have legal recourse. Your recommendation was based on your experience, and not a guarantee of future performance.
This is exactly the situation for which we have small claims court. It is the responsibility of the injured party to make a claim for that amount against the copywriter. It has nothing to do with you.
Eric, it is stilla transaction cocluded between two parties and you only recommended the copywriters work! We must all take responsibility for the choices we make in life! If you recommended the lotto numbers to a stranger and he won, would he share that winnings with you?
Eric, you acted in good faith, based on your personal dealings with the writer. He/she has obviously takedn a different direction in dealing with clients-unbeknownst by you. It is unfortunate that these things happen in business - “let the buyer beware” your recommendation was an honest appraisal of work performed for you by the copywriter, not an attempt to defraud your client. You should not feel obligated to pay for someone elses poor performance. You may lose this client, but
if you pay, you “will” set a precedent you may regret.
Oh my!
The issue is with the copywriter and not you. I would not write a letter to you if I was in the same position. Perhaps you could phone the copywriter to help get the work done, that would be helpful and may solve the problem. But after the phone call that’s it you are out of it.
Best Regards,
Tim
he should pay him you might be rich and have lots of sites set up making you money but it’s not like that for every body you must be better then him in you world you should have asked then friends to pay you back but anyways i think he recoomended as a internet
Really…try writing that again!
LOL! this is a good example of computer generated content =)
I think you need a good copywriter!
Your argument is sound but consider this (and I am sure you know it well):
- a satisfied customer MIGHT tell a few folks about you
- an unhappy customer WILL tell more than 10 folks about you
Since you are an excellent marketer, my simple (read that as not knowing all of the circumstances of your relationship with this person) solution would be for you to offer to help him with the sales letter.
It shows your character to even bring this up. Thanks for reinforcing my faith in the precious few who actually have a heart and conscience in the snake oil land of internet marketing.
Eric, I’m sure that when you recomended this person you did so in good faith. otherwise your word would me crap and you would have to change your name everyother month. but you have integrity and know its smart and business savy to sell good products. you open a can of worms if you gave this guy his money back. I feel sorry for the guy !!! on the flip side if you felt bad, mabe give him half back on the down low.
That you published this post reflects well on your own ethics and moral base.
I can’t see how you are responsible for a refund. An honest recommendation for a product or service (especially copy writing)is not an express or implied money back guarantee for any future products/services from the same source.
Like you, I would really want to help. My first reaction would be to ask to see the copy provided and see if it could be improved, tweaked, completed, etc with a minimum of fuss.
But that comes from that sense of wanting to do the right thing, and to help… not from any dubious responsibility to guarantee someone else’s product/service.
I’ve recommended your site and trainings to a number of people, and own some of your products.
If I’m pleased with them and tell people so, I’m not legally or financially responsible if they buy any of your products and are dissatisfied. I’d still want to help somehow.
Thanks for the thought provoking post.
It will make me much more aware of the value proposition in anything I might recommend.
“I’ve recommended your site and trainings to a number of people, and own some of your products.”
Thanks!
You refunded me, Eric, when I requested one about a month ago. But that was because you promised a refund within 60 days of buying the product. But in this case, there’s no promise of a refund, I think, because your reader didn’t buy the service from you but from Cole. However, because you personally recommended Cole, you owe the reader an apology, which I’m sure you already did. Second, perhaps you should do a little arm twisting on Cole to make him refund the reader. That’s your only obligation, I think. To do the refund yourself from your own pocket is unfair for you–and then what? Let Cole go scot-free? He’d just be encouraged to do that again. And this is definitely a big lesson for us affiliates. We should think 10 times before personally recommending someone. At least, when you just place an affiliate banner or link, it’s “let the buyer beware” thing. If I place a bumper sticker that says “Marlboro Country,” and you believe that and smoke and get sick, you wouldn’t ask a refund from me, would you? Well, thanks for the info, Eric!
Eric you are one of very few that I hold in high regard online. I’m sorry to hear that you are involved in this debacle. Legally, you are not liable or at fault but you are ethically responsible for this specific transaction.
Why do I say this?
Simply because YOU chose to align yourself and endorse this specific copywriter. The fact that YOU endorsed this copywriter without being compensated, give this specific situation even more credibility. Think about, a affiliate marketer makes a suggestion and isn’t being paid if the buy- IMO this is the best reccomendation one can get for a product or service.
If you value your name and reputation online and I know you do, then I would suggest that you dig a litle deeper before your “endorse” another.
As far a refunding the whole amount, I think that is a bit excessively but you could barter something of equal value or perhaps write the victim a sales letter yourself. You are a pretty good copywriter yourself, right?
Make it right and you’ll have another fan raving about you, plus you’ll sleep good at night.
Just my 2 cents.
Hi Eric,
I dont consider you liable as you only reccomended the copywriter after being satisfied with what he had produced for you,
If as in his E mail he says that he contacted other people re their testimonials on site and got only one reply and a lot of bad URLs,then he should have investigated further,
BUYER BEWARE,
If you want to get a contractor to do work for you on your Home you normally sound out and get Quotes from multiple people and check their work,and you Should never Pay up front
Not your responsibility Eric
He should have checked him out more thoroughly,
not your fought.
Eric,
At some point in our lives we have made a decision that was far from good, your recommendation of this copywriter was in good faith and you are not accountable for another persons failures.
I have been in a similar situation, paying a software developer for products I never got.
The recommendation from another marketer did not have me ask for a refund from him, but just made me more wary of future dealings with others.
I still follow the marketer and have just taken it as another life experience!
Hello Eric,
I am a lawyer, however I’m not in your state, so I’m not extending legal advice. But this is my thought…
The FTC reg’s are not implicated here, since you made only a recommendation and appear to not be a true affiliate.
You do not have a contract with the person, since you merely extended a recommendation. At most, you could have liability on a “negligent referral” basis; however, this would be quite tenuous because you likely had no reason to believe the copywriter would not provide the agreed service.
In my opinion, you have no obligation ethically to provide a refund. You were not involved in the transaction between the copywriter and the purchaser.
Eric,
Certainly you are not legally responsible though all this could have a slight negative impact on your reputation. The customer is understandably upset but clearly should have pushed his claim earlier. He would seem to have try to get a refund from you as a last resort. It’s always vital to read the wording carefully as legality often comes down to exact wording and interpretation. An example of how a genuine mistake could cause problems at a later date is your statement that you initally wrote your recommendation in October 2010??
Michael
fixed the date, thanks
Eric, you have pretty well covered all aspects to consider in this situation.
There are pros and cons on both parties grievence, and justice for me is with a compromise.
Both parties have “learned valuable lessons” in business undertakings and best practices going forward.
I would go for 50% reimbursement for customer good will, and do better due diligence on any recommendation I personally publish.
Bob
Eric you are not responsible for someone who is not honest with their customers in a timely manner or fashion. Business is business and you are honest with me, and others, so don’t refund any money when there is no facts to back this situation up…
Hey Eric…
If we could get our money back from everyone who talked a good game then did not deliver,,,then I would start with the politicians!!!
We tend to dwell on the people who “screwed us” instead of focusing in on the millions of $$$$$ that are out there to be made by our honest efforts.
Mr “copywriter” might keep his little $1300…but that is all he will have. Go show him that he lost multiple 1,0000’s by not doing right by the next IM superstar.
Victory is sweet revenge!!!!!
I HAVE BEEN UNDER THE INPRESSIONS THAT SMALL COURTS HANDLE PROBLEMS LIKE THIS. THE CUSTOMER WOULD HAVE THE WORK PRODUCED, THE DATES AND THE AMOUNT PAID AND A RECORD OF THE RESULTS IT PRODUCED. THE INTERNET MARKETERS READING THESE SITES SHOULD BE MADE AWARE OF THE PERSON SO NOT TO BE TAKEN IN. bROKERS GIVE RECOMMENDATIONS EVERY DAY, BUT THEY ARE NOT HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR LOSSES. THEY ARE ONLY RECOMMENDATIONS GIVEN IN GOOD FAITH.
THIS PROBLEM IS BETWEEN THE BUYER AND SELLER NOT THE THIRD PARTY. yOUR TRUE FRIENDS WILL
SUPPORT YOU AS THEY KNOW YOUR BELIEFS AND
PHILOSOPHY.
I feel so sorry for him for being scammed like that, but you are not responsible, in any way. What would have happened if Dragutin paid Cole the money, Cole produced a great sales letter, then Dragutin for some reason got Paypal or his credit card to refund him his money. Would you now be liable to Cole? Also, you (among others) recommend Elance and other places like that. Would you be responsible if and when any of those deals go sour? I think not. I believe that you are not involved in this. Like I said, I really feel sorry for what happened, but it was not you that did this.
“What would have happened if Dragutin paid Cole the money, Cole produced a great sales letter, then Dragutin for some reason got Paypal or his credit card to refund him his money. Would you now be liable to Cole?”
Very interesting reversal.
Hi Eric:
Very pity it’s happened to you. Everybody must understand, internet is the media of unknown. When we talk to a person, we don’t know whoever he or she is. What I mean is, if Eric’s has given him/her an idea or suggestion don’t make it totally believed to that idea.We need to firstly investigate the person background and his performance in dealing with writing articles. What we should do is visiting his blog and asks any person that has already involved with that writer. I think the possible way is contacting that writer and ask for the refund. It’s unfair to get the refund from Eric’s. Let him be our lecturer. I think he is the best to follow. Only,on our behalf is, we’ve no time to read and implementing his ideas.
Lastly, if there is no sincere response from the writer, you(not Eric) better contact the Interpol. The personal contact can be traced via his/her latest server hosting. I hope this type of hype don’t ever happen again, since it will impact other people mind to make business on the internet. That is my humble say. Thank Eric,bye
You don’t owe him a refund - as individuals we have to take responsibility for our own decisions and transactions.
You made a recommendation in good faith. The customer still needs to do his own due diligence and agree on payment terms.
With that said, if you choose to look after the customer in some way, that would be a very nice gesture on your part.
If I was in your shoes I would offer the customer half of what he lost as a gesture of good will because I know what it’s like to be ripped off too.
I might not offer him cash though… the original intent was to get a sales letter written. If I could find another great copywriter and pay them half the amount to write the sales-letter and maybe offer an hour or two of marketing expertise to tweak it and get that customer going… that would be more valuable.
If you just hand over cash they’re still going to be no closer to getting their site up and will still be bitter about internet marketers and copywriters.
So maybe give the guy some one on one time to help him see results from his online business efforts. It would make a great case study you can share your own customers.
He should have checked the copywriter out more
thoroughly, not your fought. thanks for asking.
HI Eric, I have been a listener to your suggestions for many months, having said that I
am fairly new to internet marketing, but an”old dog” I value your opinions but do NOT jump headlong into everything you suggest I am very careful with spending any money I am investing, And if we don’t look at what we spend as an investment EXPECTING a return we
should be doing something else, when we invest we do it carefully, thoughtfully, if we bought
every offer that we got by email or “VALUED
SUGGESTION” we should not call ourselves “MARKETERS” but “FAVORITE CUSTOMERS”
on my free download site I offer double your money back, and will stand by that till the
moon don’t shine anymore..it’s FREE DOWLOADS…
YOU OWE NOTHING except an apology for not knowing the outcome before the problem occurred
,in many states the man coming to you is illegal because it is considered involving a third party in a dept, “BUYER BEWARE”
……..Bob
I think this is good warning to ALL those who promote and sell others work to first use it fully yourself before promoting it. I will not buy any product or service from any affiliate unless they have used it themselves.
Eric i think in this instance you should not take any responsibility but maybe offer them some ‘free’ sections of your personal offerings. Doug
If a commission was not envolved, I do not
think you should have to refund any money.
Also it sounds like you made an honest recommendation.
Warren
N. Cole burned a lot of people. My understanding was he was offering unlimited sales letters for a couple hundred bucks a month… a ridiculous and unfeasible offer in my opinion, but considering Cole’s offering of very, very cheap salesletters, how did Dragutin rack up a bill of $1344?
The writing was on the wall a long time ago with the N. Cole sales copy issue. I read about it on the WarriorForum, though I never purchased his services or wanted to.
With owning/running a business comes responsibility for one’s actions… and yes, one’s gullibility. Furthermore, the escalation of the project into a $1344 one, when Cole was known for cranking out fast-and-cheap letters is bewildering.
You recommended a $197 salesletter based on your own experience hiring Cole to write one at that price. How the job escalated to one 6x what you paid I have no idea, but it does seem a bit like the client lost control of the project and is looking for a scapegoat.
I don’t blame him for trying though…
Peace.
yeah. I did mention in my lesson that Nicholas was currently charging $300 - $1000 at the time of the lesson ($300 for a sales letter, with higher priced packages if included with autoresponders, squeeze pages ,etc). But I wondered the same thing too when I saw the $1344. Makes me think Nicholas had some bills to pay…
U r not responsible u did not know nick was a crook u can’t give someone a refund based on another persons mistake
You don’t owe him a cent.
Hi Eric! I agree with Tim Ackley and I’m not a lawyer either, but I think that a sympathetic hand, helping him to go to the service where this jerk advertises his wares, and getting their help blacklisting him would be a nice thing for you to do. If you earned an affilliate fee for recommending him, that gets a bit dicey. Also,someone could go the the extent of contacting all known services where he might try to register, and warn them of his (non-)activity Shut him down completely. That will get his attention for sure. Anyway, Good Luck, and Keep Up The Good Work! best Regards! Stan
Eric,
I don’t know anything about Internet Marketing, but this blog as a whole seems to be a cry for attention, or a solicitation to co-sign how you’ve been a victim. Take responsibility. How much research and investigative reports did you do on the individual that you referred or endorsed? If I go to my primary doctor and ask for a referral to a specialist, I trust his referral. If I see the specialist, and get ripped off…as a consumer, I’m likely to go back to my primary physician and request damages.
Another thing to consider: How much is your time worth? There’s already 60+ comments. The time it would take you to read all of our opinions and come to a decision may be worth more than just paying the guy. Most people won’t take your kindness for weakness.
Last but not least, I doubt any of us are lawyers. See a lawyer and find out what you are legally responsible and liable for. Use this experience as a learning lesson for your business development.
Well Eric, this is quite a quandary.
As I see it, it would be the responsibility of the buyer to do his part of, what is the term, “Due Diligence” and find out all he could regarding what he was about to purchase and from whom, no matter who made the recommendation.
Also, some sort of written contract might have been in order for the amount of money that was about to change hands spelling out what the person was going to do for the money being paid.
That being said, I do not think he has any legal grounds to come to you for the money except it may be a last ditch effort to re coop his loss.
Should you have any thoughts as to reimburse him anything you would be opening the door for more people blaming you for any bad decisions they may have made working in this business.
Which brings me to this, I lost money last year…. just kidding.
It seems that the train of thought as far as answers are pretty much unanimous, from what I read.
Best of luck!
Eric Hendrix
Where you went wrong was in not referring the copywriter through a outsourcing company like ODesk or Rent-a-coder. That way you would have been protected through the guidelines of these outsourcing companies.
Eric, I love these videos of yours thanks so much.
in my humble opinion:
1. you are NOT responsible / legally liable
2. the right and ethical thing to do may be:
offer some type of product/service AND perhaps also recommend something on that person’s behalf on a ONE-TIME basis, say, an Advertisement of some sort for a few months to give him a chance to recoup.
Hi Eric, Thanks for the offer to respond to this.
I know you have high standards.
1. Why recommend somebody without checking him or her out?
2. Do you realize that we your readers trust your judgment and direction on many things concerning internet marketing so therefore accept your recommendations in good faith?
3. What have you learned from this?
4. Does Dragutin accept any responsibility himself?
I don’t believe this brings the industry down just those concerned, my advice is move away from this standoff ASAP
Thanks for all your help
Have an awesome day
Noel
1- i did check him out first.
2- yes I do realize, which is why I wrote this post and solicited your opinion
Hi Eric,
This is unfortunate for the guy who got ripped off, but you are not liable.
You made a recommendation based on the information you had at the time.
Let us look at another example.
If I go to McDonald’s and have a triple cheeseburger with extra large fries and a large coke and I recommend this to all my friends and they all get fat or die of a heart attack, does that mean I need to compensate them or pay back the cost of all the meals they have purchased at McDonald’s due to my recommendation.
That is only one example.. I am sure you could come up with dozens more..
Having said that.. although you are under absolutely no obligation to pay back this person.. you may feel bad about it. So.. IF you financially can afford it.. then make a token part payment to him as a kind gesture because you feel for the guy who got ripped off..or maybe offer some personal coaching in lieu .. Just my 2 cents.
Troy,
There is an interesting (and slightly bewildering) difference however!
What if you had made that recommendation for McDonald’s under an affiliate relationship?
In other words, what if you had accepted money from McDonald’s to recommend them to your friends? Then, that just doesn’t simply stay an ordinary recommendation. That becomes “Paid Advertisement”.
Also, irrespective of whether McDonald’s finally pays you the commission or not, there is this “Intent” of receiving payment (”consideration”, as they call it in law) that the courts might consider. And that is the concern!
I find no one here advising Eric to first talk to his attorney on this matter. Just simply saying “No Eric, you are not responsible” might make him oblivious to the dangers ahead. Yes, we understand that Eric has no fault here, but will the law understand that? Let me tell you, the law has a more discerning way of looking at things, and it will not just simply take the route of emotions. And hence it is important to employ our head rather than just our heart. I think taking this matter too lightly in the way that most here are advising Eric to do could have repurcussions later on.
What may provide us some relief is that I feel Eric has two very strong points in his favour -
- he has tried the product himself before recommending it.
- he has removed the copywiter from his list of recommended people the moment he has come to learn of his unscrupulous ways.
However, I would still advise Eric to seek the opinion, advice and assistance of a competent attorney on this matter before reaching any decision.
Thanks,
Reed.
Hi Reed,
You bring up some good level headed points.
However, If this were to go to court and the judge ruled against Eric, the precedent the judge would be setting for anyone recommending anything under any affiliate sales umbrella would have huge implications for the world offline and online.
Every case will be different, but I just don’t think a judge would like to be that stupid. Although, stranger things have happened..lol Like getting paid money because you spill hot coffee over yourself and sue the cafe owner.. gees.
Hi Reed,
Again very good points.
I think a lawyer should be consulted yes however, If I recommended Mcdonalds under an affiliate relationship and I had tried the product and it was great.. My recommendation is for that exact same product. IF Mcdonalds did not serve that exact same product or did not deliver that product at all then Mcdonalds is at fault. I only know what is in front of me at any given point.
Also, I would not recommend something that I know would be detrimental to others.
So, Eric recommended something that he believed would at the time, be repeated as a service and with the same quality as he had gotten before. However, if that service has changed then he can not be held liable, because the service he recommended was not the same service as what was given to others later on. Hence, the copywriter is liable.
I feel this would be the argument in a court of law.
I am no lawyer, but if I were, I would fight tooth and nail for Eric and go after the copywriter for ALL legal costs.
Hi Troy,
Thanks for your reply.
I have one question however.
You liked what McDonalds offered, and you recommended it to others. But for a moment just consider the two situations -
(i) You recommend McDonalds WITHOUT taking any money from them (or WITHOUT any intent of taking money from them), and
(ii) You recommend McDonalds FOR money (or WITH an intent of taking money from them).
The first one is for free, so its what I call a “Pure Recommendation”; i.e. a recommendation made with solely the benefit of the seeker of information in mind, and without any intent of personal gain.
The second however, is somewhat reverse. Here, the intention of personal gain is established; however, the intention of benefitting the seeker of information has to be proved.
See the dilemma !
However, as I’ve said before, what might come to Eric’s support in this situation is that -
- he has tried the product himself before recommending it.
- he has removed the copywiter from his list of recommended people the moment he has come to learn of his unscrupulous ways.
So thats how I’m looking at the situation. And that also is the reason I feel it might be better for Eric to consult a lawyer before making a decision.
Anyway, those were my two cents. Hope you like it.
Thanks,
Have a Great Day,
Reed.
The one big mistake I see, is that Dragutin should not have paid the copywritter upfrount. This would have solved the majority of the problems Dragutin had with him.
Both of you have learned a very good lesson, and by bringing this out in the open, others will also learn it to. Be sure of the people you deal with. I say you do what you think is right Eric, you have to live with it.
Eric,
You did not enter into a contract with either of these two in this transaction. I agree that there should not be any liability to you. It is clear that this person who paid over a thousand dollars for an internet marketing letter - and is completely unsatisfied - is feeling pain. Perhaps, this is the “life lesson” he did not want, but received. However, I also agree that there may be something gained by offering something to this individual that won’t cost you very much, and may TURN A NEGATIVE INTO A POSITIVE. Just think about it …. in every problem lies an opportunity. This is a great opportunity for you. He is supposed to be more interested in the letter and his marketing success than in a refund. A good marketing letter or some type of marketing assistance will help him achieve his goals. While I think the money would make him feel better, and I think he will be wiser how he spends it the next time, … it is the expert marketing help that he needs that is missing. He may be a tough customer, but I think there may be an excellent solution to help him in some way that you are able to. I have total faith that you will do something creative to turn this darkness into light.
Dave
Keep it strictly business Eric,you will open up Pandora’s box if you give in.
If I were you and I could afford to pay him, I would. Here’s why I say this. You endorsed this fellow so this has a reflection on your reputation. I am not sure one interaction justifies an endorsement unless it clearly states I did business one time and here is what happened. But on the hand, the consumer has obligation to investigate the provider. I recently a 500 dollar product through a well know affiliate, his recommendation played a big part in my decision.
I think comes down to really knowing who you recommend - maybe your rules are not strict enough.
I don’t think leagally or even ethically you have an obligation to pay this money but as I said if it were me and I could afford it I would- because my reputation is on the line. Personally I have a bought a lot through your link based on your recommendation, nothing that expensive but I wouldn’t expect you to refund me in I were not satisfied but I would certainly let you know.
Maybe the keyword here is grace.
Dave
While I feel the pain of this person I think he is out of the bounds of common sense to request a refund from you based on your explanation of your good experience. If you were in cohorts with Nicholas then yes you would and should be liable. Aside from that, you have no control of the circumstances and are not obliged in any way ethically or morally to issue a refund especially since you did not profit from it.
If you had profited then I agree at least a refund of what you earned should be refunded to the person.
Yes a lot of money is lost for this person but in the end it is their ultimate responsibility to do their own due diligence and one recommendation should not be the sole reason.
As a good copywriter I was not surprised at the communications nor the product that was furnished. Definitely that is a very bad sales letter. It looks as though he applied a very cheap outline template from someone else’s work and pretty poorly. I must say that the communications seem to lack clarity which seems to be both parties faults.
The other issue is that this person paid it all upfront when the standard is half up front the rest upon completion. That is just plain naiveté to pay all the money upfront.
Some lessons are just plain hard learned and this seems to be one of those, unfortunately.
Hi Eric
In my opinion you have absolutely NO obligation to pay the refund or part thereof to Dragutin. Although, I do understand the frustration and helplessnes he must feel, only he and Nicholas Cole are responsible for sorting the issue out. Your only obligation is to communicate with Nicholas Cole that you cannot endorse this kind of business practise and that he must resolve the issue, since you once recommended his service. Dragutin has his share of responsibility, as he should not have allowed this to drag on for so long until the PayPal refund deadline had passed and/or put more pressure on his credit card company to work on his behalf and return the funds.
Unbelievable that Nicholas Cole would allow this issue to escalate to such a level, he obviously wants to run his business into the ground as he has already lost a whole bunch of potential customers from this threat and who knows where else this is going!
Cheers,
Peter
If I recommend a person to do a certain job.
Then I consider 2 things.
1) The personality
2) The knowledge and experience
If the two things are matching my needs and if I am not talking in general. Then I have a responsibility, of course.
But, I am never responsible of the contract and the work the two parties are agreed on.
I am not responsible for the work or the outcome of such a job that has been done.
Finally:
I have recommended that person out of my present knowledge at that time. I do not know the parties upcoming contracts and idea of the final result.
Regards
ANders Jacobsson
My recommendation is:
Do not act in any way because You Do Not Know All Details In This Contract.
The 50% crossed my mind as well.
Dave
No, it’s not your fault, you just made recommendation in good faith and that’s it. Dragutin should realize that he is solely responsible for his every action and no one else even if someone recommends him. In my opinion, there is no such thing as 100% guarantee.
Eric
You are certainly not liable. You acted in good faith, based on your personal experience with this copywriter. You have no way of controlling the quality of work that other people provide. You can only hope that they will maintain the high standard that you experienced. No, you do not owe this gentleman a refund for someone else’s dishonesty. Keep strong Eric, you have my full support on this.
You do not owe anything, the money amount is not the issue, how many of us have recommended a movie we thought was good only to have a friend say it was the worst movie they had ever seen. If you don’t Agee I know an excellent DR his name is Kavorkian he is really good at what he does
Critics don’t get suied if they recomend a resturaunt someone gets food poisioning from.
I have to agree with the consensus that you are not liable legally on this matter.
As far as the ethical or right thing to do… well, if you have some way of helping him end up with some good copywriting just because you want to help him, and you have the means to do so, then if it were me, I would probably try to help in some way.
I feel badly for him and I don’t think I see a way for him to get his monies back. But perhaps with some assistance from you and/or other sources, he can make back that money in the form of sales, etc.
I personally would be devastated to lose that kind of money, but if someone stepped up to the plate and helped me “make” some money so I didn’t feel the loss so dramatically, I think I would be the most grateful and loyal person forever and some of my confidence in others would be restored.
And that’s my sort of final answer…
Christine
If he bought through your affiliate link, then I think you could offer to reimburse him for what you would have received (even if you didn’t) He may have taken your recommendation then bought through another link or gone straight to the copywriter direct. I do not think you have any obligation, legal or moral if he didn’t buy through your link.
Hi Eric,
I cannot see how you could possibly be held responsible for giving a recommendation. This writer gave you good service, albiet it sounds like it was only on one occasion, but that is no reason to believe that they would do otherwise for someone else.
I’ve given many recommendations in my life, but that does not make me responsible if the other person didn’t have the same experience as I did. As many people have already posted, the issue is between those two parties and has nothing to do with you. How were you to know that Cole wasn’t going to deliver? You couldn’t.. and had no reason to believe he would not based on your experience.
I was once referred to a dentist by a friend of mine when I was living in Sedona, and my experience was that this guy should have gone to architectural school rather than dentistry because he totally botched my root canal. That doesn’t mean my friend is responsible however.. it just makes his experience with this dentist different than mine was.
I could get into how like attracts like and the Law of Attraction here because that has a great deal to do with it.. but I won’t. Suffice it to say that you are not responsible whatsoever.
Cheers bro..
John
“my experience was that this guy should have gone to architectural school rather than dentistry”
LOL… I’m sorry!
thanks.
i agree with you about these,that is what i have in mind to tell.
thanks again.
okeke joshua
Hi Eric,
While I feel very sorry for the customer I think he is coming back at you out of frustration with the copywriter. $1344.00 loss is awful, but continuing to concentrate on it could be losing him more money. I don’t think you are responsible for the loss, the bad service, or a refund. I’m sure Eric if you could do anything to get Nicolas Cole to give this customer what he paid for then that would be my suggestion.
No legally you are not liable, principally because you did not receive any consideration or payment from this vendor.Ethically, after you have found that this is a legititmate contention, you may offer to pay for half of his cost and have your legal counsel go after the accused vendor. I am positive that your legal aide would not initiate any serious course of action without being 100% certain that you have a case and that you can collect the money involved, when you collected you will give your reader the full refund.
This will accomplish many things,one: you will regain credibility and caress “karma”in the right way,two you will set a presidence with the other vendors that you recommend,not to take advantage of customers,or face your wrath, three you will get a good reputation all around… as you have more than demonstrated by giving away a ton of valuable information all gratis…that you are truly a man of great character. Your greatest expectation would be to find out how the universal law of “karma” will reward you…and it will reward you.
Eric,
stand strong - yet compassionate as possible - as you are not responsible for the unfortunate business between the complainer and the copywriter. You recommended him based on a $197 sales letter transaction that was a successful transaction. After you became aware of the discord, you made it known to your subscribers. You did the right thing.
You should not pay him.
That would be the same as someone trying to sue me because Tylenol cured my headache and I told them that Tylenol worked great for me…but yet subsequently made them ill after they tried it based on my experience.
I can’t see you taking responsibility for this. Your recommendation was reporting your good experience. If the Advertising Industry was liable for every product advertised, the industry would have been shut down years ago.
I understand the customers frustration, but he has to understand his ultimate responsibility for his own actions (or lack of timely action) and take it as a learning experience not to be repeated. Sometimes tuition for such a lesson is high.
I can’t blame him for trying and you may lose him as a customer, but he made the deal.
Eric I got one question, why did he spend so much at the start.I don’t feel you are obilgated to pay for someone else that didn’finish his work.This is a hard way for a person to learn a lesson but I have learn that you check a person out even if your own brother told you he was good. I think that I would have to have a contract sign by him in my hands.
When I was working as an Independent Financial Adviser, I was responsible for the advice given to my clients.
I could supply the customer with all sorts of disclaimers at the point of sale, which were their to protect me as an adviser to prevent future litigation.
However if it could be deemed that we had not carried out proper due diligence for the recommended product and this included whether the client bought the contract or not. I was liable.
If carried into internet marketing, it would mean that everytime you send emails to prospects making a recommendation that they need to sign a disclaimer stating they didn’t want to take your advices if they chose not to buy the product.
Because sometime in the future,it might have proved beneficial if they had and you didn’t sell the benefits hard enough. Sounds farcical but true!
In your case a newpaper that allows an advertiser to advertise is responsible for the advert it runs, for example a product that is not described properly and is not fit for purpose. Is liable under mail order protection schemes.
Hence the big shift in rules over postings with ebay, amazon etc about products it sells where it will sue whoever places mis-described items and non delivered etc.
The law in most cases states that the claimant should pursue whoever he paid the money to and if not rectified to his satisfaction, then pursue the recommending party.
In your case if the copywriter could prove that you should not have recommended him, to undertake a certain project, then you would be liable.
The whole thing is becoming fudged and the future points to if you gave a stranger in town direction and he subsequently became lost, that he would claim for lose of time and shoe leather.
My own feeling is this, if I phoned a plumber that advertised on Yell.com and he did a rotten job, I wouldn’t have paid him, if I had I’d sue him and contact Yell about the damage to their reputation that someone so shoddy being on their books could cause.
But I wouldn’t hold them liable.
These are just my views and I’m not qualified to make legal representation, but I enjoy a good rant though.
Hope both of you reach a satifactory resolve amicabily.
Good rant. It brings up some interesting points that I’ve been thinking about. As some have mentioned, courts of law often do not take a website’s “terms of service” as being a legal and valid agreement. So the only way to really protect myself would be to get a signed agreement from each subscriber. While that would be virtually impossible for a free blog, I could change my business model and cater to a smaller group of people in a closed area.
In all honesty, there are simply too many of such crap providers out there. I can understand why he wants to seek refund but he should be yelling at his card company and PayPal for it. I had similar problems with PayPal, it was a straight no from them. We cant boycott them as they are too big. Maybe a petition to PayPal for their practice would be good.
You should not feel morally responsible. I feel you do a good job on the way you recommend resources. No commission, no money!
Well, I guess I am the odd “man” out here. I think that you are ethically responsible, but not legally for obvious reasons. But because you endorsed the copywriter, even if it was in good faith, people look to your advice to get the answers that we do not have. Nicholas Cole was awful to this Dragutin (sp?) character, and was a breach of anything you wrote about him. As much as it’s a shame, I do feel you are ethically responsible. I am sorry. I believe you’re the only honest man I have ever read on the net, but I think if you endorse a person through one of your programs, you should be able to stand by that viewpoint. That being said, legally this would just be another “passing the buck” case in which “X” robs “Z” because “Y” told him “Z” had a lot of money lying around the house. “Y” is morally responsible for his actions, but cannot be legally bound just because “X” seized an opportunity to get something for nothing based on gossip or opinion.
The fact is Nicolas Cole owes Mr Dragutin the money. I think an apology from you along with an explanation should suffice between you and Dragutin. But I am happy to see that you’ve stopped endorsing Nicholas Cole. I know you said not to bash anyone, but I feel I am an honest gal, too. And he was a very dirty player in this picture. He puts everything that everyone is looking for in question. And that “everything” is honesty..a rare gem online. What a shame.
Anne,
To follow your view to another application, let’s consider that you recommend a doctor to a friend and that friend goes to the doctor. The doctor prescribes a medication which takes the life of your friend. Are you responsible for the death of your friend?
Or say you recommend a mechanic to a friend and the mechanic does damages to your friends car. Does that make you liable for the damages and you should pay to have your friends car fixed?
I think not.
You are not liable to pay this person any money. You are responsible for checking the quality of the people you recommend.
Eric,
You are not responsible, nor should be held responsible for the actions of the copywriter. You recommended him in good faith, having had a good experience yourself. The copywriter himself should finish the work or give the refund.
You are not responsible for the Dragon’s loss.
But then again how much is your name worth?
Eric, You are not responsible for Nicholas Cole’s actions or making restitution for what he did to Dragutin.
You recommended Cole in good faith and had no reason to think Cole would pull a fast on him.
Dragutin should be taking Cole to court and taking what ever steps are necessary to see Cole never gets work again, not trying to lay a guilt trip on you.
If I were him, I’d file complaints with the BBB, the State’s Attorney, Rip-off report, different forums and so on.
Dragutin needs to be measured and specific in his language of course.
A friend of mine was scammed by an insurance company and contacting the different states consumer’s boards, State’s Attorney and so on eventually led to recovery because the negative publicity was too much.
I hope Dragutin gets his.
Eric,
Recommendations are just that! Nick treated you right when you dealt with him and that is what your opinion is based on. If Nick knew who you were in the IM world he may have put more of an effort to please you than he would on an unknown IM but…as he got more referrals from you he began to fall behind in his schedule and instead of pushing these out in 2 days it was taking him 2 weeks or longer causing undue grief to the customer. The other unknown is how they conducted business with each other! Obviously Dragutin must have not put money in an escrow such as guru.com or rent–coder does to protect their customers from exactly what happened here. Eric you don’t have to question your ethics or morality! Everything you’ve said or done in the past is way above reproach and all of the good things far surpasses some mistakes you may have had. If Dragutin can’t figure out HOW to get and use the information he should hire a mentor to spoon feed him. You don’t owe him jack! Life’s a bi%$# and then you die!
Eric,
You are not legally or morally responsible for this persons troubles.
He made several errors of doing business online.
He should have checked this person on his own, should not have paid him upfront, and should not have let it drag on so long.
I know you are feeling much compassion for this person, but you would probably be opening yourself up to many more people trying to get you make refunds to them for problems of their own making.
I would say that you have the same responsibility as any one who recommends any service, none! It is a classic case of FOUCAULT’S PENDULUM Swinging uncontrollably
I think people should take responsibility for the things they do. It`s just like suing cigarette companies for you smoking their product that you knew was going to kill you.
Hey Eric,
It was an authoritative recommendation based on what you knew at the time. No one expects (or, at least, should expect) an authority (which I feel you are) to be right at all times. If they do, they are delusional.
That’s one of the reasons why I hate it when people (marketers) use the catch phrases - free, simple, easy and instant as in “become an Instant Expert.” Just a little pet peeve of mine that I like to bring to the forefront reminding people that there are no absolutes - there are just too many variables to take into consideration.
Therefore, anytime I buy something I put the onus of responsiblity on myself regardless of who made the recommendation. It’s called personal responsibility.
Although, I must admit - it never hurts to present your case and ask. You may get lucky.
Regardles of what goes on here, it’s your call and, frankly, I wouldn’t post the outcome here other then to say that the matter has been resolved.
Eric…
Your recommendation was an opinion… not a promise. Here is a what I consider a close example.
Some time ago Oprah gave an opinion about the tainted meat that was being sold here in the USA.. Stating.. “I personally would NOT eat the meat in the country right now” (paraphrasing.
The result was a large loss of sales by the beef industry which resulted in a class action lawsuit against Oprah.
Oprah won hands down as it was her OPINION… not a conclusion based on scientific fact.
Not sure if that is a close enough example to go by … but close. Oprahs opinion was a negative factor while yours is based on the positive.
ah, the wisdom of Oprah!.. jk
Eric,
Are you kidding me? I think you know the answer to your predicament. You don’t need random readers to give their unbiased opinon so that you can make a calculated decision on this very simple case. Ok, here is the bottom line. When entering into a contract or agreement either in writing or verbal, there must be “consideration given” in order for a party to be liable. You are a third party in the matter. You neither gave consideration nor received it. The two parties involved are the ones that have to settle this.
As a third party, you are acting on good faith
experience and are NOT liable for the actions of another solely on recommendation alone, no matter how strong the recommendation is. It is the injured party, in this case, the receiver of the letter to act against the copywriter to procure refund. No court in the land would find you liable for any third party recommendations. The operative word here is “consideration”. You did not receive any commissions or kickbacks from this transaction. Therefore, rest assured my good friend, you are free and clear from every point of view. You are a very wise and clever man, I must admit.
. lol . I wish I had studied computers in college, I would be right there along with you. However, starting out now in mid-career to try to get an online business going is to say the least quite an undertaking..
I do enjoy, however, your videos, and applaude you for the effort. You give your subscribers a wealth of valuable information that others charge quite a penny for. You do it for free!You have taught me many things about online marketing which I actually use in traditional
business. Thanks buddy.
Keep up the amazing work.
P.S. Prior to following you, I checked you out totally. I found absolutely nothing negative written about you anywhere. You are one of the very few internet markets that upholds the respect that you do.
You are great Eric.
your friend,
Ari
Thanks Ari. You are right, I “don’t need random readers to give their unbiased opinon so that you can make a calculated decision on this very simple case.”
However, I do care about what my readers think about this. It affects the future of how I do business and communicate with you. And look at the very next comment:
“I like your having posted the issue with your readers.”
I like your having posted the issue with your readers. Several matters need to be considered to determine the legal liability for the actions of another person.
1. Is there a contract or agreement that arises from your “endorsing” another service provider? My answer is no. You were not aware of the existence of the agreement between your reader and the person you endorsed and not in a position to control or police it. The amount seems large so I will assume there may have been some performance provided by Nicolas Cole to Dragutin. Dragutin has a claim for performance by Nicolas Cole even if his right to contest it has expired with the credit card company (typically 30 days). Having failed to contest it within the required time is a factor weighing against Dragutin, but he can still seek to enforce his claim, by persuasion or by seeking enforcement in small claims court of the state involved, although that may not be very practical, because of the need to appear in court and get jurisdiction over the Mr. Cole. In conclusion on point 1, you have no liability to Dragutin, but he does have a right to make his claim against Mr. Cole.
2. Is there a moral obligation for you to reimburse Dragutin because you “endorsed” Mr. Cole? I do not believe you do under the circumstances. I believe you acted under appropriate moral guidelines by ceasing to feature Mr. Cole on your website. You put him on your website because of a good experience with him. Now that there has been a bad experience with him, it is right to remove him. It appears that although you named him on your website, it was less than an endorsement. I would also recommend that you put a disclaimer on your website for persons you feature there so that your readers know that you are not assuming any responsibility for arrangements made between your readers and persons who are featured on your website. Conclusion: You are not legally or morally responsibility to repay Dragutin for services he did not receive from someone else. Your well reasoned analysis does the job well, but I like your having involved your readers in the analysis.
Darian Andersen
Eric,
I do not feel you are liable for any refund. Your initial recommendation was because of a positive personal experience. Then when you heard about that person not treating the customers fairly, you pulled your recommendation.
Since they waited so long to file complaints, they are probably out the money.
If you think you might be able to help him get his money back from the copywriter, then make some suggestions.
This type of thing is scarey for those of us wanting to get started in Affiliate Marketing using PayPal and ClickBank, etc.
How many Affiliates actually personally use all the products they market??
Are they liable if their referral gets scammed?
I know just how you feel. I am so tired of all of the empty promises. I think that if these sites are legitimate, they should let someone try out the product and then pay for it if it works. I have yet to find a product that pays!!
This is one of the biggest reasons why most people fail online…or anything for that matter.
Did the university you attended let you try out college and then pay only if you actually got a good solid job like everyone promised you you would get if you went to school?
Wow Jason thats a poor analogy if I ever saw one. Comparing an IM product to a college education is rediculous.
First off I’ve never seen any college promotion pamphlet or heard any college recruiter claiming you’ll get rich or even a good paying job. They are smarter than that they do however use statistics like “on the average college graduates earn XX amount more than high school graduates.”
But IM sales pages are another whole ball of wax. You don’t have to step one foot out on the Internet to find a dozen or more claiming you’ll make riches overnight, in the next hour even.
Comparing a college promo pamphlet or recruiters claims to the claims of an IM product sales letter is like they say “comparing apples to oranges.”
Dear Eric,
As an appreciative follower and current customer, I must say I deeply appreciate your transparency in this situation. As a former judge and attorney, I have a studied opinion on the matter. And, as a dedicated internet and affiliate marketer, I felt the issues raised were so urgent that I paused my project on a deadline to enter my response.
The internet is truly the great equalizer. Through this amazing vehicle anyone, of any background, can gain access to mountains of information on any topic, create a business for little to no monetary investment, and even communicate directly with someone on the other side of the world at the click of a mouse. Truly the world at your fingertips.
However, as with any privilege, with this brilliant communication portal comes an accompanying responsibility. Although I should state that this is my personal opinion, with no attempt to issue a legal opinion, based on the facts as I understand them I would agree with your assessment that you do not \”legally\” owe Mr. Dragutin a refund. Since you apparently made a reasonable recommendation for services based on your personal knowledge of past performance, and you did not receive any compensation for the recommendation, I believe your connection to the transaction would not be significant enough to demand that you cure the wrong that unquestionably occurred.
My hat is off to you for your character in taking your analysis one step further, to the true heart of the matter, the moral ground. I am reminded of Portia\’s speech in the Merchant of Venice:
\”The quality of mercy is not strained. It blesses him who gives, and him who receives.The quality of mercy is not strain\’d, It droppeth, as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath: it is twice bless\’d; It blesseth him that gives, and him that takes. \’Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes The throned monarch better than his crown; His sceptre shows the force of temporal power, The attribute to awe and majesty, Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings; But mercy is above this sceptred sway, It is enthroned in the hearts of kings, It is an attribute to God himself; And earthly power doth then show likest God\’s When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, though justice be thy plea, consider this— That in the course of justice, none of us Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy; And that same prayer, doth teach us all to render The deeds of mercy.\”
Do you have an obligation to issue a refund? In my opinion, no. Would it set an unwarranted negative precedent for you to pay cash in this situation? Yes.
In almost every situation, there is always a third solution, which is what I would propose. Mr. Dragutin paid for copywriting services. You are a copywriter, and you possess a library of valuable copywriting content. You clearly have a merciful heart toward the situation, as any of us with compassionate hearts understand and admire.
Why not give this kind gentlemen some of your valuable services, as your response in integrity to a shameful situation? This, I repeat, would be a GIFT, offered to make a wrong situation right; mercy to the innocent, and a strong moral statement and example on your part.
Frequently life can create magic out of misfortune…perhaps there is a reason you and this gentleman intersected.
One parting note: the internet is also the finest democracy, and ultimately shines light on truth and right behavior. Perhaps some of Nicholas Cole\’s friends can impress upon him the importance of addressing mistakes head-on, with remorse, given the terrible blow to his character and reputation that this very public matter has created. This would be an appropriate time, and an appropriate forum, to make amends.
Blessings to you, Eric, and to you, Mr. Dragutin.
And yes, to you as well, Nicholas Cole. You\’ve apparently done good work before; that is evidence that you can do the right thing.
p.s. WOW! 93 comments by the time I was able to post…when I started there was only 1!!
LOL, that’s what a lawyer gets for being long-winded!
That is a great solution.
“As a former judge and attorney, I have a studied opinion on the matter. And, as a dedicated internet and affiliate marketer, I felt the issues raised were so urgent that I paused my project on a deadline to enter my response.”
Thank you for weighing in on the matter!
Eric, This is it! Justice seasoned by mercy… perfect. . the high road, no regrets only the gift. Nothing else matters.
In Him,
Melissa
Hi Lory,
I just had to tell you that reading your comment to Eric was the highlight of my day. The world is truly at our fingertips today, via the internet, isn’t it?!
We can venture into the world each day able to drink the knowledge of yesterday, today and tomorrow long before afternoon tea!
I so enjoyed the eloquence of your writing; your insightful advice, indeed the art.
Regards,
Melissa
In my opinion The Copywriter is liable for the damages incurred on you (Eric) as well as the displeased Client.
In the future more research should be done before considering promoting/endorsing a product or service as to avoid situations as such.
I hope in the end that the Client be fully reimbursed by the Copywriter for inconveniencing him.
To you Eric be more vigilant with products/services that you endorse/promote on your site as to recommend to your readers in the future.
Good luck in the future and as for the Copywriter he should be more careful with who messes with, he might not be so lucky next time around.
Don`t mess with people good name
I don’t think you are liable. I agree with you that if it were a smaller amount of money, it would be worth it just to make the problem go away. But, this is a chunk of money. I think the other person should do the refund.
Some of the best advice ever on buying and selling: Caveat Emptor, that is, Let The Buyer Beware. Our extremely litigious society leads people to think like this person who is asking you to refund. His reasoning is, someone has to compensate me because I got burned, I made a mistake. The fact is, he chose to spend his money on this. He said yes. He clicked and paid, regardless of who may have influenced his decision. We all are responsible for our own actions, at least we all used to be, and this is an unfortunate and costly lesson for him. Sorry, no free ride because you got beat, Mr. Dragutin. Live and learn.
Hello Eric, I don’t know you personally, I have been following you for a three years. You were always honest. You may recommend products but you also said if you don’t have the money do not spend it. There are no guarantees. I honestly think you do not owe this person a penny. Eric please do not change the way you run your business. I read every thing and it sounds like he was happy with every thing. I think there is something missing. I do not think you are responsible too any one or any thing. It is my opinion that you do not have to pay any thing to any one. I am giving you my honest opinion.
Hi Eric,
For the moment,let us forget whether you are liable to pay him or not, legally or morally.
What I see here, is that your readers’loyalty and trust is so deep, that, on your recommendation, this reader has invested this “decent chunk of change”.
This has got and will get a fair degree of publicity on the net, and you are in a position of liability. Convert this liability into an asset.
How? If you pay him off, think of the goodwill you will earn amongst your followers.Your goodwill will rise to a next level. This reader will definitely talk to his fans and friends who in turn will become your fans also.Pay him off Eric! This will be a small investment for a good amount of good publicity. Anyway,we do have budget for Public relations.This will be your best earner.
However, that, this does not happen in the future is what you have to ensure. So,make sure that when you recommend someone in the future,
you add those extra words, about not being responsible and liable and whatever.
Eric does have a long line of supporters and his long time of honest relations will not be overturned by this (one lone) unfortunate situation; because, his reputation speaks for him over time. However, you sound like you might get a kickback for your efforts to get the injured party paid by an innocent party. Who are you really?
Whilst I sympathize with the person who lost the money, I think it is primarily his fault for parting with the money before seeing the result. If you were to reimburse him out of your own pocket this would create a precedent which many others in similar situations would use to claim against referrers. In my opinion, it is not a good idea to do this unless a Court orders you to do so.
However it illustrates the importance of having it clearly stated whenever you make a recommendation (whether on your website, in a blog, in an eMail or whatever) that you accept no responsibility if the recipient of the recommendation is disatisfied with whatever or whoever you are recommending.
Hi Eric, What on earth is the fuss about? I have been scammed a couple of times and lost money but it never entered my head to blame the affiliate who recommended it. On one occasion I asked the affiliate to pressure the seller to make the refund promised but he did nothing and didn’t respond to me. In the end, he (a supposed “guru”) suffered as I have let many people know of his unreliability.
I think your customer should get back to his credit card supplier if, as it appears, he used his credit card via paypal. Most majors will refund due to non delivery or scams, they simply redebit the receiver of the money. Not sure of their attitude if they paid Paypal but they can charge back to Paypal just as easily as to anyone else who received the funds.
These are factors that all buyers on the internet should take into account when dealing with strangers. The last person responsible for a loss is the recommender, provided the recommendation is given in good faith as was yours.
I too feel for the purchaser but they say you have to pay for your experience. This experience may well make him more aware of HIS obligations in a transaction and, in the long run, save him much more than his present loss.
My grand daughter got scammed by paying 2 weeks rent in advance for a holiday apartment in New York. The money was paid to a scammer. Her attitude was remarkable. First the tears at losing money she had worked hard for. After the tears “I should only have paid a deposit so it was my own fault. But I’ll know better in future” Great response from a 20 year old and one the customer should reflect on.
Eric, Eric,
For all the good you do, here you are in hot water again.
Firstly, you gave your recommendation in good faith and according to your own experience with Mr. Cole’s work. Secondly, you did not make an affiliate commission on the transaction.
Yes the customer has been duped and it is unfair, but the problem is between the writer and the customer to work out.
Morally and ethically, it would be great if you could try and reach the writer and get him to *do the right thing* and refund the customer — Adding that your reputation and business have been subsequently stained due to the writer’s handling of this.
Many of us — your followers — know you to be an UPRIGHT person and you never skunk anyone!
This is one of those unfortunate events that make some of us thankful we are not in the public as you are in this Internet business.
Having a web presence opens folks up to all kinds of unpleasant and hurtful situations; it sometimes brings out the worst of humanity…I mean some people get really, really ugly online.
Perhaps the writer can accommodate the buyer with an alternative product of equal value? He needs to do SOMETHING for that unfortunate buyer, B/C $1344 is a LARGE amount. — But YOU do not owe it.
Most Sincerely,
A.
Eric,Don,t you dare Pay the victim due to a third party scammer.What ever happened to buyer beware quote.The scammer should be sued by the victim. your supporters have given you an accurate summary on this situation.
Donald
First, the legal part. You are not responsible for refunding this person. One person is never responsible for the actions/inactions of another person. A simple case of buyer beware.
Second, the ethical part. Successful people who take it upon themselves to make recommendations should show some compassion for the person who spent his hard earned money based on those recommendations. I will leave whatever you decide about being compassionate up to you. Personally, I would not take full responsibility but would try to come to some sort of compromise.
Legally you are not responsible but morally you did recommend this person. I would find a common ground to repay some of the loss. If I recommend someone to my followers and that person screws one of my followers I would be ticked and hurt. Find a middle ground and you will both sleep better.
Eric, I also feel sorry for the guy being scammed the way he was. You recommend Cole in good faith and so there fore Cole is responsible, the fact that the person paid and didnt receive the goods is for him a hard lesson but it is his lesson NO you are not liable. Wishing you all the best.
Hi Eric,
this is quite an interesting story. Of course is that guy looking for every opportunity to get his money back. So would we, wouldn’t we?
However, I don’t think that you are responsible for a business transaction between two other people. How could you possibly have controlled what was going on between those two?
Your recommendation was done in good faith, nothing else. Things can change within a period of time. Consequently, it is always the buyer’s responsibility to check if everything is fine, and if he is comfortable with the conditions provided.
Anyway, I can’t understand why he paid him in full before he was satisfied with the product in the first place.
Eric,
I to have a decent email list of loyal subscribers.
I recently did an “Adswap” with a rather shady dude not checking hist credentials. I received several complaints from this guy. So, I wrote him and basically told him to make things right.
I hate to put some influence out there but the “IM”/Bizop niche is a very small world and once I start sending the word out that he screwed my subscribers it would spread.
I treat my list with the up most integrity and respect now.
Even more so, after going through List Control.
The guy may have been up front with you and give you a quality service.
But, you also have a email list of 50k+ and have a loyal following of beginning Internet Marketers who trust your decisions.
(Above is the Responsibility part to me.)
The fact is, we sell information in this business.
People rely on what we say and do to make choices to pull out their wallets and expect to get some return on their investment.
On the other hand…
We all know about returns and how some people get their taste of something they really can’t afford and return high ticket items.
I see that the copywriter tried to communicate with this guy. He also told him that this was a PLR and that conversion would be low due to competition.
And I know how you can sell a PLR to a bunch of beginners and it get flooded with Clickbank products.
Couple of my list members subscribed to you via recommendation and bought your Forex trading PLR and used the web designer you recommended.
They came to me complaining why it wasn’t selling once they placed it on Clickbank.
I had to tell them that there is more to it than just placing the site up there and then showed them the 20 + Forex trading products with zero gravity.
All of which, have the same design and video player with similar adcopy.
I volunteered consulting to help them with their own product and helped them with design.
But, also I told them there is no Easy Button in Internet Marketing. Selling a product takes time and promotion. You want to send traffic to your offer and check the conversion.
If this guy did not have any traffic then there would be no sure fire way to test conversion rates with paid adcopy to see if it works.
Plus, the others that got screwed by the adswap with that other guy.
I refunded partial money and ended up giving some of my product to them with a free consultation.
In summary, Eric I think what you do for beginners is awesome and take a lot of time.
I look to you as an authority figure for beginner Internet Marketers.
(I usually refer people to your courses who really need a ton of hand holding.)
I think to save face, you could give a partial refund or even write a adcopy for them.
(I have seen some of your adcopy and it is worth way more than what this other guys charges.)
But, I think the best caveat to readers on PLR, is the fact that the market for those get flooded a lot.
The best thing is to use it for content to another product or revamp it and add features to the software to give it more of a edge on competition. IMHO
I think if you compensated this reader, you would not only gain more respect from your list. But, you would show them your sincerity in their economic development online.
Eric you are the man!
Shane Hale
http://www.CashFlowNinja.com
Good point… I agree that “gurus”, large list owners, and those with authority and influence have a responsibility.
Eric, you do have a responsibility; however, it is not a financial one. You have a responsibility to take the time to get all the facts from both sides before you go throwing money at the problem. You don’t know either of the parties on a personal level. Do the math before you supply the answer. Make sure you have all the (true) facts from both sides. You may find that what you don’t know can hurt you. Don’t underestimate the power of fraud or the cunning of fraudulent people. I’m not making accusations, I’m just saying look at other possible scenarios and be ware of those who want you to pay for someone’s mismanagement of their personal business funds. Think!!! You gave a recommendation based on a project that cost you less than $200. Not more than $1,000.. The fact that he allegedly paid much more shows that he gave more credit to the copywriter than your recommendation allowed for. And, do really know that he did infact pay that? Don’t pay it, there are other alternatives. Mel
Dear Eric,
I think we should all take responsibilities for our own actions.
You made a recommendation on your blog and the reader took it. From the moment that he made a decision to follow your recommendation it became his responsibility.
We should always be aware that services especially creative services can never be guaranteed. Sometimes people can deliver excellent services sometimes it can be a total disaster. Performance is affected by so many factors that can either increase or decrease the efficiency of one’s performance.
I feel that you cannot be held responsible for the poor performance of your recommended copywriter. It is my opinion that you don’t have to refund the money of the reader but you can offer to mediate to come to an acceptable solution to both parties.
Here is something for the reader to think about: Had he made $ 1 Million or lots of money with your recommendation would he have given you your due reward or share of the money (because it was your responsibility after all that made him money)?
Suggestion: Maybe you can include a disclaimer about your recommendations.
A good followup to the above comment regarding responsibility.
The golden rule ‘Buyer Beware’ is known world wide. Dragutin should never have paid in full up front, you only do that when you physically have possession of the product or service at the time of purchase.Eric you are no way responsible for a third party’s actions.If you want to reach out to him and see if a mutual agreement could be settled upon that’s your choice. We as marketers should do what ever we can to provide customer satisfaction,which is sometimes impossible.I know you will do the right thing. This is my humble opinion.
Eric,
You are not obligated at all to refund the money. I do not know how old this gentleman is but a major lesson in life itself is,”You live and learn.” Myself personally,for that amount of money,I would have done a lot more research on the copywriter until no more could be done. I would of had to be 100% satisfied before I took equity out on my already maxed out card. If you pay him anything at all,he just may think he can do this at any time he realizes he made a mistake. You are completely right Eric. DO NOT PAY ANYTHING AT ALL. Let him work it out with the person he joined in contract with.
Eric, it is apparent that you have created quite a stir in the online universe with this discussion. As pointed out, bad business experiences are part of having a business. It is certainly hard to see how you have any financial responsibility in this case. As one writer said, you could pay the demand in the interests of good PR. However, the question is: how much reputational damage could be done if you do not pay. Since you have such an impeccable reputation, I doubt much.
One writer suggested, I believe, that you intercede with the copywriter to point out the damage HE is creating to his business, and how it would be in HIS best business interest to refund the amount, and learn from it. He needs to have a contract to protect himself, too, in the future.
As previously suggested, it would not hurt to ask the customer what he feels would actually be fair of you, considering you 1) had a legitimate basis to make your recommendation 2) you cannot control what the copywriter does in his business 3) you received no compensation at all from the copywriter. If he really thought about it, I suspect he will come to the conclusion that you are not obligated in any way. You are, rather, helping him to clarify his thoughts. And then, he can trash the copywriter in all sorts of ways.
Before doing so, he might point this out to the copywriter, and ask how much business does he ( the copywriter) want to lose. Remember, a satisfied customer might tell one or two people, but a po’d customer will tell ten or more!
“ask the customer what he feels would actually be fair of you” - good idea
Hi Eric,
I agree with many of your supporters, you are NOT responsible for this person’s disappointment in what he was expecting. I can see that he has tried to reason with the copywriter and failed and I see that he has attempted to get a refund from the other sources. Now it looks like he is trying a last ditch effort hoping that you will give him a refund. I have tried lots of plans on the Internet and many were not what I expected but I would never go after someone who was trying to help me by recommending something. You are not legally or morally responsible.
I do not believe that you are legally liable. However, ethically, if it were me, I would try and contact the other party and resolve it. I might even offer some personal coaching to help him regain his loss. But that is just me and what I would hope someone would do for me. Do you have to do that? Of course not. But from my followings of you, I think that you tend to follow the high road and will find a way to help the guy without doing it financially. And in return, I would hope that he would write you one really, glowing testimonial.
The fact that you had used this writer yourself and obtained satisfactory results is what counts here. You recommended someone who you had used in the past and would use in the future if you needed to have something else written.
The complainant would not expect to pay you anything if the letter produced had been worth double what he paid so there is no reason for you to pay the difference. In fact he may just be too fussy about what he wants.
Eric,
I am not a lawyer and am not giving legal advice. You are probably not legally responsible, as far as I know, however you might consider offering the poor guy something of equal value from your store of info products, or even write him a sales letter. You cannot help what happened between 2 third parties. Even though not obligated, you can offer to help in some way. That is how I would probably handle it.
Wolf
First question — “Am I liable” — means would a judge in a court say I have to pay. No. A court would find for you, not against you.
Second question — “Is it moral not to pay” — depends on what set of moral laws you subscribe to. If YOU say it’s immoral not to pay, then under YOUR moral code it is immoral not to pay.
Third question — “What shall I do?” — is the key question. Try to use the situation to create new value that was not there before. E.g. suggest to Dragutin that you want to help him out and therefore you will (without charge to him) make him an affiliate of one of your most expensive products and will credit him 100% of the sales proceeds on his first $1344 of sales. It costs you nothing, and it gives him a free way to come out whole and then keep on earning money (at the standard affiliate commission, after he has collected his $1,344).
Hello Eric,
You wrote a very thorough and thoughtful post. I believe you covered it all, and that most readers are in agreement that you are not liable.
Now, If I recommend a restaurant based on my great experience at that restaurant, and someone acts on my recommendation, goes there and ends up with food poisoning, am I liable? I think not!
But I would now reconsider ANY recommendations on my part. I guess I need a disclaimer for my recommendations!!! Perhaps a website dedicated to disclaimers! I’ll just have a link at all my other sites pointing to my “disclaimer” site. Boy what a great idea! OH OH, wait a minute…now I’ll need a disclaimer for my disclaimer site. It will never end.
I do not feel you are responsible for the agreement between two people that you had no personal or financial interst in. What is being asked for compares to us asking anyone who refers a product or service to be liable for a refund if we are unhappy. Anyone who endorses a product -athletes and actors are always giving endorsements - would be then liable. We are all grownups making our own decisions and must protect ourselves from the wolves out there - du diligence is needed. I would not refund the money to him - helping him find the right action steps to take to get his money back would be my suggestion.
It is a great lesson for all of us to learn and be aware of. Thank You for allowing us to voice our opinions and learn from this for ourselves.
Mary
No.
1. Testimonials are not a guarantee.
2. Dangerous legal precedent. Maybe I should pay his bill because I receive your newsletter?
To my mind you are absolutely not responsible to refund him. Copy writers should in any case only be paid in full once the work has been delivered.
If I act upon a recommendation, it is still MY duty to proceed with caution.
What would I do if I’m “walking in your moccasins”? I would certainly not pay
It’s all been said, not your fault.
I agree with the majority, that you don’t owe this man the amount he is asking. It’s hard for me to understand why he’s not going after the copywriter; after all, that’s the person who failed to fulfill his part of the agreement (if indeed there was one). Good will is one thing, but paying for someone else’s mistake, i.e. paying a large sum before a satisfactory product is produced, should not be expected.
Are you responsible? No!!. A refund would be a nice gesture, but would set a dangerous precedent. How about this: 1. Show him the responses you have gotten saying you aren’t responsible. 2. Offer him one of your products as a consolation. It won’t really cost you anything and it should create some good will.
Eric, You are not legally responsible however, your recomendation carried considerable weight. Customer is always responsible for due diligence. You should put that in your terms anytime you recommend someone or a company. If it were me, I would ask the guy if you could provide him with some of your best products to help him make up for the loss. That is what I would do. Making a cash payment to him goes too far and I would not pay him. I bet this can be worked out.
One other thing you might offer, is to send the copywriter a personal email requesting that he make it right with the customer. Or you will make it well known to the internet world and ruin his reputation and business. Play hardball with the copywriter. Say something like this: You have 24 hours to re-imburse Mr. X. If Mr. X has not received payment, I will personally make sure that your copywriting days on the internet are over. What you did cannot be tolerated. I will not allow my name to be dragged through the mud.. You got the customer because of my recommendation and you did him dirty. Make it right to him or else. You have 24 hours!
I have used this tactic before and did get my money back within the 24 hour period. He had done the same thing to numerous people but nobody else got their money back. I was the only one. I took control of the situation and made it happen. He knew I meant what I said. No more Mr.
Nice Guy with this copywriter. Give him a sleepless night and he will pay!
Eric,
IMHO, you’re not liable, however if paying the person the $1344 can be converted into good publicity valued at more than that in profits to you then it may be worth it.
I don’t see any ethical or legal reason (not a lawyer) for you to be liable here. If you pay out, it would be for the business benefit you would receive by acting in beyond good faith measures.
If a friend tells me to dine at a restaurant and I get sick from their food, do I ask my friend for punitive damages? No.
If I am referred by a doctor to a specialist, and that specialist ends up causing physical harm through malpractice, do I sue the referring GP? No.
If I refer a product or service, for no financial benefit to me, which I do often, do I deserve to be sued by someone who had a bad experience with the same product or service I had an excellent experience with? No.
The complainant here has a bone to pick with the person who ripped him off. You acted in good faith by revoking your endorsement of that person. If it was an affiliate arrangement for which you were remunerated directly, then I’d say you owe the poor bloke his dough. According to the write up above, that is not the case.
To that extent, I suggest looking at what the ROI is for paying it out, and if it surpasses not only the $1344, but the pain of copy cat complainants, then it may be worth it. Again, I don’t feel you’re liable from the description of the issue.
Been a follower for a couple years, and always appreciated the value in your blog and newsletters.
Wishing you the best.
Eric,
Thanks for bringing an important issue to light, which affects us all—”buyer beware.” Of course, you are not liable for the dealings of others, and I appreciate your compassion and sense of justice that leads you to at least try to reason the problem out.
This points us to the fact that all our dealings online or elsewhere need to be honorable and above reproach, and when we make mistakes in judgment (i.e., trusting an untrustworthy person), we need to forgive ourselves (and others) and move on to provide even wiser and better solutions and products.
Everyone sees you as a kind of guru. I think you want that too.
As such, they think that WHATEVER you recommend, is safe.
Just ask yourself, what would happen if with everything you would say: I recommend this company, but it is totally your problem if they are not dependable.
How many would still follow your recommendations? And what would that do to your reputation?
And then (and I am not saying at ALL that you don’t research them!) how sure are you actually of the companies/people you recommend?
Is there insurance for this kind of thing?
Hi Eric
You aren’t responsible.
To remind Dragutin, everytime I have listened to Eric recommend someone’s services/product he always clearly states that he has had a good experience with the person/product but we must check out his recommendations first before we use their services.
So the responsibility lies with us to do our own duediligence and work out if Eric’s recommendation works well for us and not just blindly trust what he says.
I understand the compassion issue i.e. you feel for Dragutin but please don’t pay the compensation (this is the easy option). It isn’t your fault and it sets a president going forward that anyone can make a claim and get paid even if they acted irresponsibly.
The only thing you can do in this circumstance Eric is to go to the copywriter in question and impress upon them that you recommended their services in good faith, they need to consider whether there is some compensation due to Dragutin otherwise you can no longer recommend their services and will publically state this on your website. If the copy writer isn’t bothered about the impact to their reputation when you do this then it isn’t your problem.
I hope this helps.
Isha
You are not in a binding, legal contract with this individual, Mr. Cole is, even if you endorsed this person it dosn’t make you liable. I would say in good faith and to keep this customer I would offer a 20% credit, small price to pay. Then go after Mr. Cole for slander and dragging you down with him. The fact as well, is that you removed him at the first sign of trouble says that you have acted in good faith as not to lead others down this path. You can also offer to write one for him.
Hi Eric,
Do you and our readers really think that Cole did NOT deliver ? Is a refund justified.
Eric, I consider you a trustworthy person.If you recommend a service/product, I would take it seriously and will not bother to verify.If something goes wrong, of course I will be annoyed with you but I will not hurl the whole blame on you.Here, your reputation is at stake. If Cole has not delivered a reasonable standard of service, he should rightly make a full refund or at least partially. If this the case, it will not hurt to offer Dragutin an apology or some gift. That’s what I will do.
Thank you once again ! I appreciate the good things you are doing for us.Best Regards.
There’s a copy of the sales letter in the PDF above. According to Dragutin, it is not relevant to his product. I’d be happy to hear Nicholas’ side of the story.
Eric:
I don’t think you have to pay the reader for this. He did not have to use the resource you suggested in the first place. You merely suggested the one you used for your project, because he did a good job for you. It’s not your fault if the person hired to do the job failed to do the job for this reader. I might suggest not naming any resources to future customers or merely suggesting companies such as Elance or similar outsourcing companies. The future customer would have a wide choice of resources to pick. You should not be liable for this.
By the way, I’ve never paid you or anyone you referred a cent, and I feel that you owe me $1399. Since its less than $1400, I think you’ll pay.
In a sense, this buyer has gotten his “ounce of flesh” just in the negative light that has been placed on this copywriter. Anyone searching his name from now on is going to see this discussion most likely.
This is a case for Small Claims Court. The buyer might not get his money back, but he can get a judgment and that is an annoyance too.
Lastly, I agree that personally if I had made a commission, I would have passed that on to the buyer…just to meet my own ethical standard.
I know how bad the guy feels about being ripped off, I think most everyone who uses the internet at all has experienced it.
You certainly have an obligation to express your apologies and regret, (which I suspect you have already done).
This does raise some interesting legal/ethical questions though. A lot would depend on the language used in your endorsement or promotion of his services.
For instance, if you said “he will write a killer sales page for you just like he did for me!”, or “you won’t find a better copywriter for the money!”, then you essentially guaranteed satisfaction.
If I were you, I would not refund his money, but may offer to do some copywriting for free or a deeply discounted rate, or perhaps a comp copy of one of your paid products.
I would also spend a lot of time letting my subscribers know about the potential damages to your reputation if an endorsed product or service goes bad. It sure has given me something to think about!
What I basically said is “Nicholas is the Walmart of sales copy. It’s not the greatest quality, but it’s decent, and he churns out a high volume of it for cheap prices”.
I did show some testimonials from Nicholas’ site though (hopefully they were real).
I too am tired of empty promises and not making a cent of all these products that make it so easy to make money. It seems that there is one step or two steps that they are omitting. If I ever make money. My guidelines would be . Here are the absolue steps to follow my guidelines and if you do, then yes you will make money. I cannot promise you how much as the rest remains with you. Steps and videos to show them click here and do that..next step..next video until success. Also pls write me to tell me how you made out as I will personally respond. I am looking for one HONEST GOD fearing person who can deliver. Having said that, I AM YET TO MEET HER OR HIM. I have spent thousands of dollars in vain.
That’s essentially what I’m attempting to do through my video lessons.
You as they say are “between the Rock and Hard place”, You totally are not responsible at all, but because you did recommend him, even so he did a good job for you, you did not check him out to see how others felt, so in order to maintain your reputation and not let it be impacted, you may want to give him the money and let this be a lesson for you as well to make sure you check someone out before recommending them, I run a small business and have had to suck it up and pay when I knew they were dead wrong, but word gets out and guess what I get it back ten fold. Hope this helps
I don’t believe you are liable. I am sorry Dragutin was scammed, but unless you guaranteed Mr. Cole’s work, this transaction is wholly between Mr. Cole and Dragutin.
I have bought things on recommendations that have been worthless or not worked out: everything from buying expensive products at live events to trying out/signing up for something touted by a friend (who may or may not get a kickback for the referral). Not once have I gone back to the “recommend-er” for a refund or even considered it.
I generally try to “make things right” by sending the offended party something, even a small token with my regrets for their bad experience. I wouldn’t take responsibility, but I would do this to show compassion and concern for what happened.
None of us can be responsible for another’s actions, which is, I think, what Dragutin is asking you to do. You made your recommendation in good faith and rescinded that recommendation after learning Mr. Cole’s service to others wasn’t what you had experienced.
Finally, I’ve heard gurus say one should always “test” new freelancers with small, inexpensive tasks first. If $1344 is more than one can bear to lose (understandable), then give the new person a $20 or $50 job first. I’m sure Dragutin could write a report or an ebook on newbie outsourcing mistakes (and monetize it) now!
Eric, like the other commenters I feel that you are NOT responsible. If a friend recommends a restaurant to you and you go there and have a terrible meal you you expect your friend to reimburse the price of your meal? NO! I am sorry that this person got scammed (been there myself) but we are all responsible for our own decisions. $1300 is a lot of money and if you want to help him as one of your customers you might offer him one of your products as a token of compassion, but, you are not required to do so.
Just my opinion.
Phil
I rather think any lawyer ould spit out his sunflower seeds into his spitoon, pull down on his suspenders and mutter …
‘caveat emptor. That’ll be $175.00′
haha
I definitely see no responsibility in this matter on your part. You recommended this person in good faith, since you had a positive experience with him and you would have no way of knowing he would act irresponsibily with someone else. Also you had no part in the contract that this person made with the copywriter. This could have been the reason for the messup - no clear contract of the client’s expectations. Also, usually one does not pay up front (except perhaps a deposit) for services such as those until you have received the merchandise or a sample of it. The 45 day limit with PayPal is also reasonable. Perhaps the client should have checked first to see if Nicholas Cole was registered with BBB. And BBB only will say - if they have had complaints against the Company. I think it’s ridiculous that you should have to pay anything in this instance. You received no money for your recommendation. I’m sorry he feels he was scammed. But it was definitely not by you. Then there is that legal expression “let the buyer beware”. I do not think that you are responsible nor are you liable for the money he spent. I think he’s looking for someone to blame and has tried everyone else involved. The issue is not yours to deal with. Carry on with the wonderful work you are giving us for free. I thank you and appreciate all your GOOD and GENEROUS time and information. Thanks again. Lucy
It is easy to say “let the buyer beware” but this recommendation is coming from a well respected guy.Someone many trust.
When my dad recommends a certain barber, do I need to check with BBB first ?
Eric, As usual I seem to be the odd man out. I think that the single most important consideration is what you consider your reputation and your word to be worth. The fact that you did not get paid is really irrelevant, as it was your intention to get paid when you made the recommendation. The fact that you are willing to discuss this issue publicly says a great deal for your character, as will the way you handle the resolution of it. Having watched many internet gurus demonstrate how they pick a product at random and start promoting it, I think it is about time that the responsibility begins to shift. Whether or not you have a legal responsibility is something every lawyer would argue based on who was paying him. Whether you have a moral responsibility is something only you can decide. The solution could be as simple as helping your reader get his sales letter written to his satisfaction. That would be a win-win resolution, and I can guarantee that the credibility you would receive would far outweigh the time and/or money involved. Thank you for publicizing this issue… from a long time reader.
“The fact that you did not get paid is really irrelevant, as it was your intention to get paid when you made the recommendation.”
A very interesting point.
Dear Eric,
I truly believe that you are an honest and ethical online marketer. The fact that you have handled this situation open and honestly proves this to me.
As much as I sympathize with the complainant, would it be any different if this product was advertised during a TV spot on Oprah?
Would Oprah then be liable after describing a positive result from a vendor ( therefore an endorsement of good service ) to then later find out that the vendor was inconsistent in quality and had ripped off clients?
The answer is No!, and this is why; although the claimant can say that he followed Oprah’s recommendations the truth is that this cannot be proved. Especially since the vendor has other avenues of service promotion. If the vendor was exclusively marketed on your site (or Oprah’s show for that matter) then duty of care is implied. However, since you were not compensated for the transaction, there remains no trail of evidence that he click on your affiliate link in the first place.
I’ve been ripped off too and it hurts, I plan to write about that in my own new (yet established) blog.
I feel for the guy, I really do. But to compensate him out of your pocket without full justification will only invite others to attempt the same strategy to be compensated.
They will all come out of the woodwork as presentence may be set. Also, it may be considered that you admit culpability by doing so.
My advice is to assist the claimant by offering an alternative solution. Perhaps you have a copywriter friend in need of free promotion that could help here?
Thanks for the opportunity to speak.
Cheers,
Scott
With your experience - write a series of letters for him on the same topic that the copywriter was to have done…and call it a day. Your integrity as an online marketer and mentor far exceeds the issue and it would be my contention that replacing the promised product will suffice.
Eric…
First; I appreciate your tips, even though I cannot say I actually follow them all. I am not really pushing for any big Internet marketing endeavors, so I do not do many things that you do. But, the info and advice is well received, and I admire and respect your experience and expertise. Thanks!
Your story here about the affiliate liabilities does bring up a very interesting set of questions. And, I do not think there is a clear-cut set of answers yet.
On one hand, our society seems to want anyone-in-the-chain to be accountable; we see evidence of that in many news stories and even in the political arena. It is a bit scary, actually; seems folks want to blame others for their own ignorance or inabilities.
On the other hand, how far should the chain-of-accountability be allowed to extend?
If, as others here allude to, everyone who ever promoted or advertised or otherwise sponsored something, was held fully accountable for knowing and telling the-whole-truth-and-nothing-but-the-truth…we would have no more TV, radio, Internet, magazine or other advertisements. Because we all know we are continuously being lied to by the mass media machine.
All of us are accountable for what we do; so I know some might say that because you recommended (and I am sure that word needs clear defining) something, or someone; that you should have known all there was to know.
I am sure you wish you DID know everything before-hand; then this would not have happened!
If YOU have to pay, I would say all advertisers have to pay, too.
If you somehow get forced into paying for this, it will be a sad and scary day for all of us who have even dabbled in affiliate marketing and similar online endeavors.
I don’t see how or why you should be forced to pay; you acted in good faith and honesty; if that does not trump the other side, we are in for a rough ride ahead! Good luck…keep us posted!
“how far should the chain-of-accountability be allowed to extend?”
Good question. I think that’s what the FTC is trying to address.
Eric,
A recommendation is a person’s opinion that something is good.
The person does not work for you therefore he is not an agent, making you liable for his actions.
You know someone who jumped out a 5 story building who said it was a great experience and based on their positive review you “recommended it,” a person would have to use their common sense to know jumping out a 5 story building most times is not going to result in feeling good.
In business smart folks have learned “Caeveat Emptor”, let the buyer beware.
If you do not have a contract you are not responsible.
If you were paid to provide a “recommendation” you still are not responsible for work done without your knowledge or supervision.
I write this knowing you have the big bucks to hire an attorney firm to deal with this guy if he sues.
If he sues and loses the cases he has to pay your legal bills.
He needs to sues the person he paid the money to whether he registered with BBB or not. If he paid for services he didn’t receive then small claims court judge will look at the evidence and award him a verdict. Once he gets the verdict then he plan to attach whatever he can get his hands on, because guys that burn people like this usually don’t like to pay even even if there is a judgment against them.
Locate the property, get the constable and go get what belongs to you from what ever property you can find to sell.
It is hard to do but take it easy don’t sweat too hard. Oh and be careful who you put up.
I feel for your customer as I have purchased a big ticket item from an online marketers recommendation and have not yet, 2 years later, received what I paid for. I personally am taking legal action against the person I made the purchase from not the person who refered me to him. I don’t think it right for your customer to think you responsible for someone elses actions and I understand your desire to err on the side of compassion, however I think that instead of giving him back money you did not receive perhaps writing the copy for him would be a fair compromise.
Eric, Not that I am capable of offering legal advice I do have some thoughts. The recommendation you gave is unclear. Apparently it would have been based on your payment of $197 paid for one letter. Would Dragutin have known that? Did that “recommmendation” induce him to spend $1344? Did you say D was “trustworthy and reliable” for an expenditure of $1344? Like you at present, I would be hesitating too before deciding what to do. Perhaps without any admission of liability offer him $197 (the apparent value of your recommendation) or whatever sum you are comfortable with - just to get him out of your hair.
Eric
You are under no obligation to pay this individual any monies whatsoever, neither legally or morally.
If I recommend to someone a great restaurant and that night they go and have a terrible meal how can I be held responsible to pay for their meal. I am simply recommending from my past experiences, things do change.
I sent a few friends to a restaurant I loved. This is part of my business. The food was bad and one got sick. They had changed owners. should I pay them for the bad food they had? NO. If you want to keep the goodwill going with your flock, you might meet half way and offer 50% in good faith. Or pay him all of it minus a few fees. You should do your homework a bit better as well as the customer. However you don’t want everyone on the planet asking you to fix a mistake or the bad service of someone else. I would put more stern warnings on any recommendations in the future. I have bought a product from you and its good. I find you do an excellent job, but I have been ripped off by others and have a hard time in the trust issue. That’s Life in the internet world.
I understand the guys frustration, I think that most if not all of us that buy products and services on the internet have been scammed by some one at sometime or another. I think Mr. Dragutin paid for copywriting services which he did not receive, but is blaming the wrong person for his loss. It seems that he was unable to collect from the person responsible for his loss and after he was unable to receive a refund from Paypal because the 45 days had expired he went to the next possible person to collect from which was you. I do not feel you owe him anything. He should chalk up the loss to experience learn from it and move on.
Eric,
I agree with your position. If you recommend a car dealer, and the car dealer does a customer wrong, are you liable to pay for his car? This is no different.
Your heart is in the right place, but you are not liable for another business’s misgivings.
No responsibility on your part.
It sounds like you made an honest recommendation,based on the service you were provided. You are not responsible for how the copywriter operates his business. I understand and appreciate your compassion for your reader. However,if you pay the reader anything,you open a floodgate that will be very hard to close. Thank-you for asking what we think. Blessing on you,your family and the reader in question.
No you are not responsible.
In my opinion, you’re not liable. The CAVEAT is always buyer beware. Though you can be somewhat be blamed. I would have hired the guy too based on your recommendation cause I trusted you. But the only difference, I would never pay the guy the full amount in advance. I myself, and I think every one whether you are in business or not had, had experienced being ripped off. The world is full of it. There’s always a snake be it in the forest or in the city.
If money isn’t an issue to you, then I’ll offer the victim some %age refund and some of your product. Good deeds never get unrewarded.
The “Law of Karma” governs our life every day, hour, minute & seconds. No one can get away from it. It’s a cosmic law!
Make sure though, to have Dragutin sign some kind of disclaimer— not an acceptance of fault from your end. Just cover your back, OK?
Because he was following you down a path, he then tripped and damaged his knee, he was in total control of his actions- walking- not you. In this business matter, he tripped several times by not practicing “buyer beware”. by not checking and getting other recommendations, by not withholding most if not all pay until the copy writing was approved, and dawdling and by not acting within Pay Pal’s 45 days, 45 days is plenty long enough to take corrective action as needed. Then there’s small debts court, has he tried that route? Finally, he will be able to claim the product loss and will be recompensed somewhat by the Feds. Finally as a gesture of goodwill, give him a free product or two to cover the balance.
Actually, I think one of your other readers had perhaps the best piece of advice you could possibly get on this issue.
You are NOT responsible for this man’s situation. You acted properly in making your recommendation, since you were a satisfied customer of Mr. Cole. What happened after that is not in your power to control, nor did you profit from it.
That being said, however, it is true that this could become either a PR nightmare for you or a PR goldmine. I say, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Mr. Dragutin obviously wants to make a living online. You, understandably, do not want to pay for someone else’s dishonesty. But your heart goes out to this man. So, you should consider doing is to go out of your way to help Mr. Dragutin get what he wants (an online living). In the process, you end up benefitting from this situation by gaining an increased reputation as an honest and compassionate businessman. I’m not saying that you should do this selfishly, with the sole motivation of benefitting from someone else’s misery, but it’s clear that you want to do something to help, and all I’m saying is that, sometimes when you take the right action, it pays off for you in the end. Think about that.
One other thing: don’t bother giving Mr. Cole “$1344 worth of negative publicity”. That’s a waste of your time and energy. Instead, simply cease recommending him (as you have done), and if asked about him, tell the truth. Word of mouth is either a boon or a killer. Crappy “businessmen” soon find themselves without customers, because people WILL talk. Because of the number of your readers, Mr. Cole has probably already received $134,400 worth of bad PR, and growing. You don’t have to do a thing.
I have been looking for a trustworthy person to help me build an online business. I have been studying your videos on Erics Tips, I do not believe you are a dishonest man. I can usually tell when I can’t trust someone. I trust you to lead me down the right path, therefore, I do not believe you owe them anything.
Bom,acho que o cliente deve se entender com quem ele negociou,o fato de voce te-lo recomendado não faz de voce o responsável pelo fracasso da negociação,acho que voce deve ser exmido de qualquer responsabilidade,fique calmo a justiça irá prevalecer,obrigada por prdir minha opinião.
translation?
Portuguese to English from Google translate, it says:
Well, I think the client should understand with whom he negotiated, the fact you have it recommended does not make you responsible for the failure of negotiation, I think you should be exmido any liability, stay calm justice will prevail, thanks for prdir my opinion.
Great post Eric.
For me these kinds of questions need to be answered personally, according to my own core values.
Logically this ‘problem’ can be compared or associated to many things in my mind’s ‘data base’ and therefore many different conclusions are possible. This shows some of the limits to the logical mind.
By comparing the situation to my core values (Heart) then I can have a sense of what is right for me.
In addition, depending on what I am personally working on, I have that to consider too. Perhaps I have decided to do what I am asked this week (because, for example, I noticed I am often very self centered) and I get this email. My response could be much different than just simply measuring what my mind and feelings have informed me.
I personally am glad you brought this up so that I look at my own business exposure in a deeper way.
Thanks!
Karl
Here what I’d say:
Hi Dragutin
I do not want to lose $1344 USD for nothing as I acted in full honesty and transparency.
Kind regards
Eric
Can anyone in this day and age take responsibility for their own affairs, do the research and understand that there are risks involved in hiring anyone you don’t know online and offline.
I hired a contractor to remodel my bathroom upon the recommendation of a friend who just had her bath remodeled. He did more harm than good, and was paid for it. I didn’t blame my friend and ask her to refund the money because she referred him to me. I made the final choice and I paid him before thorough inspection.
This is no different.
Bom, acho Que o Cliente DEVE SE Quem negociou O fato de voce te-lo recomendado Não Faz de voce o Responsável pelo Fracasso da Negociação, acho Que voce DEVE Ser exmido de Responsabilidade qualquer, Fique calmo uma Justiça ira prevalecer, Obrigada Por prdir Minha Opinião.
Hi Eric,
If you were aware of the copyrighter being a crook, then you should be liable for HALF of the refunded money. Since you were not involved got paid nor knew of this man running a scam. You are not responsible for any refund whatsoever. There of course will be karma involved. If I was you I would take it to JUDGE JUDY and be seen by 10 MILLION people and finally make a NATIONAL EXAMPLE of someone who scammed or was scammed by someone and set the internet marketing world on its ear! STAND UP FOR WHAT EVER IS RIGHT!
Be an example like the GOOD MASTER.
Eric, As I see it you know and I know that you are not legally responsible in any way. It was a service that he paid for and not a product, like a book, software. This is something that I would pray about in order to have a peace about in making the right decision. I rely on God and I am sure that you do also as my source for everything. If you do end up refunding his money that does not mean that from now on every person should expect to get a refund for products or services that you endorse. Each case is a individual case and should considered separately. God Bless
In affiliate marketing you would possibly be liable if you received compensation for your referrals. If such an agreement is in place, this agreement should release you from damages incurred when the product you endorse fails.
If you publicise a recommendation based upon experience you should include a disclaimer where actions and results in the past do not guarantee the future results similar to financial markets advertising. You are possibly in a grey area if you are recommending a service without a disclaimer. Reasonably one should not be accountable for this as you have no control mechanisms and an ombudsman, FICS or any related complaints handling service would be more interested in the service provider.
Eric:
you have done the right thing and more
the frist thing i leson to a weber on out soriceing was to put the money in a fundtill bouth party were happy
Addendum,
AS far as, reimbursement, you are not responsible because you had no idea this guy was not doing work someone else paid him to do.
It is not good business practice to feel sorry for persons who lost money on a poor decision they made. Just because someone tells you to do something you ultimate have to decide yourself to do a thing or not.
He must pursue the one who defrauded him. whatever his purposes were for getting a copywriter it had to do with business. In business you must have tough skin. It won’t be the last time someone scams you or tries to.
I can’t tell how many time I’ve been burn’t but you learn and grow and do not let it happen again.
I mean $1800. dollars?? anybody asking for that up front not your mom or brother you better think twice or three times before giving up the cash>
Actually he could have went to his local advertising agency, and probably would have saved about $1300. dollars. In business there can be no sympathy for ignorance.
Being mugged or robbed is one thing, but just sending your money away of your own free choice? You must be a man and accept your mistake and either get the guy who took your money or take it a lesson learned to never happen again. This life is hard, but some folks sound like they never hard any adversity and feel people who make bad decision should be responsible. Well only one person decided to pay and only one person paid that person, and he is the one responsible and no one else, period.
Those who really feel compassion can get together and pool their money and try and help, but under no circumstances is Eric responsible is any sense for replacing lost monies.
Eric you are not responsibiable, but as a copywriter yourself you can help him as a help. Now you do not have to but you said the golden rule
Eric,
It is obvious that the consensus is that you have no obligation, legally or morally, to compensate Dragutin for his failure to take necessary precautions regarding the hiring/retaining of a copywriter. I concur completely.
I agree with David.
True compassion is to act with integrity and not with charity.
A recommendation is just that and the decision to form an agreement with a third party is the accountability of the two parties involved.
As you received no payments associated with this deal, you are definitely not liable.
I understand Dragutin’s feelings and have empathy. We all have made unfortunate decisions. This was one of the decisions for Dragutin with the accountability for it.
I hope Dragutin can accept that this was a decision he made and realize the accountability of the decision is his.
Being a victim will not benefit anyone.
There is a lesson for him here and probably one for all of us….BOB
I think you are not responsible for the refund of the money that is not given to you.The customer should know the risk involve in paying the copywriter.Besides,he knew of the 45 day refund period on paypal so it is his fault if he did not avail it.You are only recommending according to your expirience with the copywriter.It is the customer’s responsibility to chose the right copywriter for him.
Hey Eric,
How are you? Based on what you have said happened I honestly don’t think it is your fault the guy got a raw deal. The guy did some work for you and you were very pleased with the work he did and by virtue of this, you recommended him to others. Yet, if afterward he starts to be dishonest with people and not giving them their money’s worth, they are the ones who should be blamed for paying this guy in full before the job is completed.
Hello Eric
Its always a issue when the subject of money arises and quality of service.
People can only do what they believe to be rite whether it works out or not is hard to say.
Going on a limb here - perhaps someone could help the fellow who was given less than perfect service - some other help in the form of copy - like a letter or some other way of assistance. While it would not pay for the lost money, it could help instill a sense of
honor and making amends where possible.
If this is of any interest, I would be glad to see if I could pitch in as being screwed over by a business you trust stinks.
Neither you or he are to blame for what has happened.
All the best
Susan In Aus
No you are not responsible. This was business between those two parties and it appears that there was communication. The party, who produce the product, even agreed to work with the customer. Asking the customer for more details on the product, to provide clarity and generate more interest. They could have gotten a more perfect product, possible. Not your fault.
If I were to ask for the refund from all those who recommended some kind service or work. I would be able to go on vacation for 3 months.
You are Free and Clear, as each one of us are 100% responsible for our own actions.
Carlos
Let’s say I ask my neighbor what movie he would suggest I see this weekend and I decide to go to that movie based on his recommendation. I didn’t think it was worth my time or money. I had the power and the option to get a refund from the theater. If I make a purchase, it’s MY responsibility to know the “terms of sale” with the business I transact with. The recommendation for this movie didn’t come with a warranty or guarantee- none offered and none expected. I did use the information to make a judgment.. but that’s the point. I used my judgment to make the decision to enter into the subsequent transaction. Sometimes that business is, plainly, not the choice that “should have been made”, but who knows that in advance?
I would never ask my meighbor for a refund- all he provided was his opinion/experience.. and while it did affect my decision, the responsiblity for the decision is mine alone.
Hi Eric,
Wow–what a mess. I say go with your heart, and I get the feeling your heart says–give him the money he lost. I can’t see any legal obligation on your part, but let’s face it, you can make 1300 bucks in a heart beat, Dragutin’s credit cards are all maxed out–the guy’s trying to get into this biz on a shoestring and loosing 1300 is crushing him. We all learn a lesson here. The way we recommend people and the way we enter into a contract. So again–go with your heart, you will get it back many times over. All the Very Best and Thank’s for bringing this situation to the public.
“I say go with your heart, and I get the feeling your heart says–give him the money he lost.”
I think my heart IS telling me to do something. I’m just not sure what yet.
Hi Eric,
What I would do in this case is give him $1344 worth of items you have in good faith. This is probably the best solution for both parties. I would be help with this solution. It’s a win win situation because you are not liable.
Eric, I suggest that you communicate with the copywriter about the predicament he has put you in. As I see it, you recommended him on the satisfactory work he did for you for $197. The price he charged Dragutin was far in excess of that. It is obvious that the copy was not relevant for the task at hand and Dragutin has every right to question that. It would certainly be very easy for Dragutin to drag down his reputation online in this age of social media. If you were to discuss this with the copywriter, he may change his attitude. You cannot be held responsible, as you provided the endorsement in good faith (with a disclaimer).
No you should not pay, but do warn the copywriter that his reputation is on the line. If he is an honest man then he should put a lid on this fiasco and issue a refund. After all, the money was paid up front before the copy was received. It’s a matter of goodwill.
Eric,
Bummer of a situation for sure. I appreciate the manner in which you are making proper considerations of all parties. Now for my opinion. I believe there is a difference between an “endorsement” and a referral or testimonial. By endorsing someone, I feel you are putting your name and good reputation on the other party…that is the whole point of it. But a referral or testimonial is nothing more than offering your experience with the party and it should be limited to that….”In my experience, this person was a good resource and provided a valuable service”. I am not sure which side of fence your written statement falls on, but if you endorsed the copy writer on your sales page or blog, I can see why the customer sees you as partly responsible for his purchase decision. It doesn’t sound like you have the kind of relationship with this copy writer where you would just pick up the phone and say…what is up here?…hear his side and then call him out for putting your reputation on the line, if he is burning this guy. You seem like a sharp and prayerful guy, I am confident you will do the right thing.
No of course you are not liable, which I think you already know, by the terms and conditions of your website, the relevant one listed below.
9. EXTERNAL LINKS.
Our website contains hypertext links to websites and other information created and maintained by other individuals and organizations. These links are only provided for your convenience. We do not control or guarantee the accuracy, completeness, relevance, or timeliness of any information or privacy policies posted on these linked websites. You should know that these websites may track visitor viewing habits.
In addition, hyperlinks to particular items do not reflect their importance, and are not an endorsement of the individuals or organizations sponsoring the websites, the views expressed on the websites, or the products or services offered on the websites.
We permit links to our website if they do not imply an endorsement by, or affiliation with, our website.
Is this a marketing ploy???
“Is this a marketing ploy?”
No it’s not. I’m an opportunist at heart, and I saw an opportunity for a good blog post. But not a ploy.
I would offer my deepest apology. I would offer to refund him my commission from the project. I see that as an act of good faith on my part and a fair win/win for the customer. The customer gets some type of refund and I don’t profit from what turned out to be a crappy product. Lesson learned from everybody.
We are clearly in a business where the buyer MUST beware. It should not be that way, but that is the truth of it.
For the client to expect you to refund the whole purchase price is lunacy.
I love my Toyota truck, even after all of the recall scare stuff I still love my truck. I could never hold the sales guy responsible for the recall problems. Nor could I hold the cashier at McDonald’s responsible for selling me a bag full of garbage. In the end I made the decision to buy the things I own, good and bad.
It’s a shame that the customer did not get what he wanted. It happens, it sucks, but too bad so sad.
I worked retail all through college and as such I have no sympathy for unreasonable customers. Refund the commission, give an apology, and try to help the guy find a quality copywriter.
I didn’t receive a commission for the sale though…
I subscribed to your services solely because you strike me as being a professional.
On the one hand, you are in danger of setting a precedent and opening the flood gates to other claims if you go ahead and pay up… which I do NOT advocate
On the other hand, however, you have to seriously ask yourself, do you want long term loyal repeat customers or just one-off buyers… and where does this client fit?
From what I have read there is nothing to stop you from walking away from this as David has correctly said because your client dealt directly with Nicholas with no involvement at any time from yourself or anyone commercially related to you.
In strict business terms, not your problem!
But, what if you classify them as someone you wish to keep?
My teams deal with disputes on a daily basis all over the world and I have trained them to always ask themselves whether or not the problem actually presents a positive opportunity for them before they make their final decision.
The proverbial win/win/win ideal.
And I can see a positive opportunity for you in this case.
Let me explain.
If I was you I would ask my client if he/she would consider being paired up with a suitable person to get their job done properly… at your expense.
The $1,344 was Nicolas Coles Retail charge… NOT his cost… and it was almost certainly grossly inflated given his cited track record,
so I am sure you could find someone well qualified/skilled to do the job for at least half that amount, if not less… especially as your client already has some copy to work with.
Of course, you have to weigh the pros and cons between your real long term cost if you walk away from this client vs the benefits you will get which will include retaining a very happy client and having access to a Sales Copy writer you will know you can rely on.
Not to mention the fact that you will set yourself apart as a professional in an industry with a far from user-friendly reputation.
Personally speaking, I would take the priceless reputation any day.
Peace
Peter Young
Founder/CEO
The Buying2Give Group
“ask themselves whether or not the problem actually presents a positive opportunity for them before they make their final decision.”
I do believe this will turn into a win/win, just not sure which path to take yet.
Hello, Here’s “my two cents”…In my humble opinion Eric is not liable,he didn’t provide the service,he didn’t force the buyer to accept and pay for the service before-hand. Eric feels bad about this because he is a christian person(with a giving heart)who feels the responsibility to his readers should always be above board.Eric should not even consider giving the buyer a refund for services or product he didn’t sell to him.Since I have learned to research a service or product being offered before buying.I,also, believe it is necessary to apply “buyer beware” with any purchases made online or offline…So, irregardless of who recommended the service or product the buyer should not have released any money until he was satisfied with the outcome of the service provided…Perhaps,a 20% payment of the total price would have been reasonable and un-refundable if the copywriter’s final draft was not what the buyer thought it should have been…An agreement(stating what the buyer wanted and how the copywriter might write it)apparently never took place…never step into a transaction blindly…Recommendations are just that “recommendations” and nobody twists your arm to step into a transaction with blinders on…
Hi Eric I do not think you are legally responsible. I am aware of all the work and advice you do for free and the charitable work you do. I am a Newbie and get bombarded every from the so called Gurus every day that I take no heed to;but you are one of a few, if not the only one that I listen to as far as Internet Marketing goes. I would probably feel the same if I followed your recomendation and got burned; at the same time you the individual did adequate work for you and you based your recomentation on that. Even though I do not think you are legally liable, I do think that you have the skills to work out something with the individual that won’t actually come out of your pocket. Just remember, a lot of people take what you say to heart and thanks for what you do!!!
Dear Eric
First of all it was the client’s fault in paying the total sum upfront. The second mistake that he is making now is to blame you for his stupidity. You do not have to pay anything to this person. That having been said, Mr Cole should be taken to task for his unprofessional attitude in this whole affair.
Hi Eric, just refund the guy! A well lesson to learn from!
Sorry to say you are between a rock and a hard place. if you remburse, you set a poor presidence, if you don’t it could make your other recomendations and business dealings suspect.
The claim to you is unsubstantiated; Dragutin made the conscious choice to follow your recommendation. Drasgutin needs to seek legal advice in regard to this copywriter, should he seek to recoup all of his loss.
Hey Eric…my suggestion is simple….if at all his findings about you is that you are the one to be held for refund then just go ahead..why not..but before you pay him the claim that he has put….you should be charging him double the amount of the money he is claiming as your consultancy service for recommending him a copywriter….is what the law says….
the best solution is…ask him to have a word with me…lolz
As someone who is concerned about the lack of responsibility, integrity and honesty in affiliate marketing, especially in reviews, I can readily sympathise with your reader who has found himself deceived and out of pocket for a considerable sum of money. However, after reading through the correspondence he had with Webline Marketing, I think it only fair to say that your reader should have been more wary and done his own research into the capabilities of the service provider. We cannot rely solely on a recommendation from someone we trust. To do so would be similar to accepting the advice of our good friend to marry someone he thinks is great, when we have never dated them or even talked to them. It would be extremely foolish.
We have to accept responsibility for our actions, for our choices, for our mistakes. Your reader made a mistake by not doing his own research into Webline Marketing. He made a mistake by paying up front. He made some poor choices. He is an adult and as such should be aware that not everyone is honest. From what you say, it appears you did not knowingly or purposely deceive by recommending Webline Marketing services, and have personally used, and been satisfied with, their services prior to this. However, if you had heard, known, or perceived of any difficulties, dissatisfaction, or complaints of others when dealing with Webline Marketing, and you had not taken action to review or remove your recommendation, then YES, you should consider yourself an accessory to the rip off. Only YOU can know if you had any idea or inkling about the poor service of Webline Marketing though. If your conscience is clear then you are free to inform your reader that you are not liable in any way for his actions, choices, decisions, or poor judgment. We ALL have to be wary and watchful and wise. Maybe that would be a good interpretation of the WWW - wary, watchful, and wise.
Eric,
I’m not an attorney, but I play one on T.V…
Regarding your LEGAL liability, my opinion is it is very limited at best. Everyone needs to be big boys and girls and do “appropriate due diligence” to protect themselves. The buyer needed to structure the transaction in a way that was comfortable from a risk standpoint. Your responsibility is to provide a disclaimer advising people of this.
From an ethical standpoint, I would think the service provider in question would respond to your concerns and help to remedy the situation. If not, perhaps you (or someone you know) can “perform” and help the customer with his “need”.
Also, remember there is always 2 sides to every story…
PS - Weird /// symbols seem to appear in my browser as I write this…
Eric -
Since you promptly withdrew your reccomendation upon learning of the copywriter’s behavior, you are certainly in no way legally or morally responsible to pay this refund.
Besides, to pay this money would open you to many other requests for money from other disgruntled customers. Would you like to “refund” me the thousands I’ve been scammed for lately?
Well, I have more to say. My best friend owns an animal hospital. When he first opened, he was scared to upset any customers. More often than not he returned more to an upset customer than he got in service. After, a few years and bearing a ton of guilt he realized that the customer was not always right.
It’s a shame and it’s sad when a customer’s dog or cat dies. But the bill is the bill and it is still due for services that were rendered. As such, just because your animal is sick does not mean my friend has to treat your animal for free because you do not have enough money to pay the fees.
I say this, because you don’t really need to give this guy anything. It took a few years, for my friend to take his heart off his sleeve. The funny thing is, when he separated the emotions from the business, he made more money and had less headaches.
There is no need to be mean to this guy, but there is a win/win that does not need to involve you paying for his inability to get better service from the copywriter.
Ok…I’m done ranting now.
Eric,
I’am glad you posted is problem, because I need a good laugh today! Stock market is down and a few stocks I own were recommendations from various places. NO! NO! NO! you don’t owe this guy a dime, and if you do pay him something. You could be starting something big?
Let go of the kite string,
Good Luck,
Barwet
Hi Eric,
My opinion as regards the items you have posted to us. I confirm that I do not know Nicholas, nor have I heard about him before now.
While I sympathize with the consumer, and believe he may (or may not) be entitled to a refund, I think he is asking the wrong person. If he is entitled to his refund, it should be addressed to Nicholas, and perhaps, in court.
1. The basis of this Transaction is a “Success Attitude”… From a business point of view, every sale must have a Begin and an End date.. There was none of this before money was exchanged. Eric, I don’t care if you tell me that American Airlines are the most “On-Time, Every time Airline”… Before I buy a ticket from them, I will check (a) If they go to my destination, (b) how much for, (c) when they depart (d) when they arrive…. In this case, all I see is a Start date… I don’t see a FINISH date,, as part of the agreement. Perhaps the buyer was in a rush to conclude the deal, and we all can fall into that trap sometimes. Whatever the case may be, You are not liable.
3. Based on the Questionnaire that Nicholas sent. There were too many ambiguous questions, by which he can slide out of any trap. Some of the questions were vague, and it was impossible for the buyer to know exactly what he was asking for… And so, he was able to present an “Internet Sales Letter” in the first place, and thereby claiming to have “delivered” on the job… As odd as that may seem, technically, he has… (And even offered to “help” do “other things”…). In this case, I doubt that even Nicholas will be held liable for this “deception” (IF we can call it that), and for legal reasons, we all have to be absolutely careful not to call him names either… But that’s the way he does business, and you have used his service before. So, you are not liable.
4. Based on an email correspondence from Nicholas to the client, he said
“Ok, thanks. I’m really anxious to get this project going for you so you can start seeing the sales roll into your bank account like all the other big time marketers you’ve read and heard about”…
It is my belief that there was a significant “Mis-communication” about what was on offer, and what was being paid for… In my mind, I feel Nicholas did assume that all he was supposed to write was an Internet marketing Sales Letter, which he “Delivered” on 11 January 2010, to the client, who paid on 2 December 2009… FIVE weeks later… Not bad really, for a Transaction that had no end date. So, you are not liable.
4. OK, so it took him TWO months before the client started asking for his money back. BUT, in order for the client to prove that Nicholas has done “something” wrong, he has to also prove that he did NOT get what he paid for. THAT will be difficult. ALSO, that he did not get it AT THE TIME that was agreed… THAT also will be difficult. But, YOU are not liable for that.
5. You endorsed a product you had used before. I believe this is the basis of your agreeing to become an Affiliate. Your recommendation was not fraudulent, nor misleading. You are not liable.
6. As an affiliate, you only get a percentage of the fee. In this case, you didn’t get paid. BUT, even if you did get paid, the money is yours. If I sign up as an affiliate of Trade-Doubler to promote KLM or Star McDonalds. It is possible for me to have used KLM services with no hitches, or had a great breakfast burger. I have a right to say so, even if I am being paid an Affiliate fee. IF KLM services become faulty after I let people know what service they offer, or if burgers now have cockroaches in them, I should not be held liable for that. BUT If I knew about consistent lapses in service or products, and I set out to deceive the consumer, then I am as much a fraudster and the Seller, and should be prosecuted for making false claims. But this is not the case. so you are not liable.
7. Your text reads.. “Now let’s talk about disclosing material connections….” Your Recommendation was made, I believe, BEFORE OCTOBER 2010… (because we are NOT yet in October 2010..).. so I assume, in October 2009. The FTC Guidelines came into effect 1 December 2009. This transaction took place (when money exchanged hands) on 2 December 2009, AFTER your recommendation, and you (normally, under Law), have so many days to display “Affiliate & Material Connection Statement”… you did that. You are not liable.
As to the Question of what is right, from a Justice and/or Ethical point of view… Do you pay this client.
1. From a Justice point of view. He is not your client. You have done nothing “wrong”, so the question of “Justice” does not arise with YOU. It might arise with Nicholas, and I would feel the client aught to attempt to get some, if not all, his money back. BUT from Nicholas. That is the basis of “Justice”. Someone who has done NO wrong, should NOT be made to pay… So, my answer is, I would not make this payment from a Justice point of view.
2. From an Ethical (or Empathy) point of view. This is absolutely up to you. This is a very sad case, really, because of the amount of money involved. And I see the client took certain precautions to check the Recommendations on Nicholas’ website… and no-one else responded, (other links did not work)… That should have raised alarm bells… As an affiliate, I assume you signed up, so you could make a bit more money.. In this case, you didn’t. But even if you did, the commission is yours, UNLESS Nicholas asks for it. BUT this is NOT a client you personally introduced. He himself claims to have checked other references.. If, like other marketers, you have endless affiliate links, you were not to know that other references were non-responsive, or that you happened to be the “only one” that responded. Even if you have the money to pay this client back, I will seriously suggest you do not. This is because you will open yourself to serious and, perhaps, endless numbers of litigation, and will send the wrong message out to clients who get poor services. That Affiliates should be pursued for the full payment (paid, for instance to KLM, or American Airlines) for services not rendered or poorly rendered. That will be like opening up a can of worms. The possibilities are endless. What would I do? I could not pay the client.
I feel sorry for the client, but I feel if he wishes to pursue this, Nicholas should be taken to court, and let the court decide. But, I do not see what you have done wrong, for a product that was purchased (and delivered, technically). So, I do not feel you aught to pay.
Nice analysis!
Eric, I am not an Attorney, so I can’t advise on the legal ramifications. But, it would seem that Common Law, would support your non culpability. Your recommendation was in good faith, based on the facts as you personally were aware. Some may not appreciate this, but there are many verses in my Bible, that support this.
Secondly, the agreement was not between you and him.
Third, what about the other party, that he did recieve a recommendation from? Is he trying to collect from him? Is that 4th party liable? And, to what degree?
Fourth, yes I would agree with your feelings of compassion, and the need to keep good will, between you and your readers. But, if you do compensate him. The can of Worms you’ll open for all of us is just unthinkable. You’ll have to let your conscience be your guide.
I just happen to have posted 2 articles on my blog, that I think all IM’s especially Newbies should read, that would cure a lot of these ills of the industry. It all relates to caution and good sense.
I too agree with others that you are not directly responsible.
But indirectly as an excellent human being you should help him to get back his lost amount from the seller.ie you should try to find out ways to contact the seller to get him refund the amount.
Or you should see whether something legally can be done against the seller ( Nicholas ).
Hope every thing gets solved favouring your subscriber .
Thanks
I do not think you have any legal or moral obligation to repay. You might offer to contact the writer on his behalf and tell him you had recommended him and his failure to produce looks bad for you and you will be forced to say you in no way will promote him in the future and will even say you are no longer associated with him on your blog (which you have done). You are not obligated to do this but it might be appropriate.
Hi Eric,
No, I don’t thing you are liable to that. You have good experience with Nicholas Cole so it’s ok you recommend him to others. The problem is when a lot of complaints are coming in, did you stop recommending him? If yes, you are not liable. If no, then morally, you should refund him half of that amount. Actually no matter what, Dragutin always has the responsibility to check things out first before giving the guy the job/project. So a full refund is not necessary because Dragutin should learn a lesson from this.
That’s my thought.
Thanks & regards,
Rick
Apologies, for numbering out of sequence. I should have pressed the Preview button, but pressed the Say it! button instead. Just goes to show you that anyone can make mistakes.
I would suggest speaking briefly with your attorney in reference to the legal perspective, however in answer to your second question…I would say that you already know in your gut what to do. You really don’t need to validate your decisions. I would say to go with what you think and feel is “right”.
If I were in your position I would not had initiated a public post presenting my situation. I would have quietly done what I thought was right and let it go.
I don’t agree that you need to placate this guy. It was a recommendation based upon your past good experience with the copywriter. People are subject to change. You cannot guarantee the reliability of another person.
It is not your resposibility
Thanks
Eric:
Nope: NOT responsible ! Yes, I am quite sure it really burns to be ripped off - but that is life. My perspective may be somewhat unique: I actually HAVE requested a refund from you and you were very agreeable. So, I KNOW you truly DO what you SAY you will do. (Actually, you OVER DID my refund - but I am certainly NOT complaining about that !)
Thanks,
Bill Carey
Eric, since you are not legally obligated for the refunds, now it only voice down to moral and ethic. I do feel for you and your reader who asked for a refund. I have to admit, in a few occasion I do feel like asking for a refund from the one who recommended the product and service.
It doesn’t go down too well for me when I act upon faith from the recommender and some degrees of trust are lost. Out of good faith, instead of refunding the amount, you might want to consider offering the reader a free product of yours. BTW the way you handle it, opening out to the floor and letting your readers voice their opinion is really fantastic move.
So this it will be a lesson to all IMers here, be vigilant on your recommendation. Make sure you use it and proven it before you share with your readers and it doesn’t hurt putting a disclaimer clause.
Cheers
some people like to take advantage if you let them l don’t think you should
Eric,
I am not a lawyer; however, I do know several American lawyers here in Korea.
Naturally, laws differ from country to country, state to state, and circumstance to circumstance.
In my opinion, along with my lawyer friends, you are not responsible for refunding a purchase that someone made based solely on a recommendation from you.
Just like someone else mentioned, if you recommended a mechanic, who had given you good service in the past, and then didn’t provide the same quality service, that is NOT your fault!
You were simply trying to help someone based on your own experience. There shouldn’t be anything wrong with that! If I recommend a restaurant here in Korea, and you don’t like it; I’m certainly not going to pay for your meal. I’m also certain that you would ask me to do so.
Whenever I’ve bought a product specifically from you, or one of your partners, and for whatever reason didn’t like the product; You Promptly refund my money along with an apology that really wasn’t necessary.
Dragutin is completely out of line to ask You to refund his purchase. He needs to realize that these things happen in online business.
I too have been ripped off. I spent $1500.00 on a coaching program that was recommended by another contact, and I knew more about Internet/affiliate marketing than the coach.
Again, I believe that you are not at all responsible; however, if you decide to refund him, in an unnecessary effort, I will contribute out of my pocket, and I’m confident that many of your other members would be willing to contribute.
You have provided such a great, free program, which is one of the best I’ve seen, so I will support you 100%.
Terry
South Korea
Eric, you are not liable for this. This is between the buyer and the seller.
If the shoe were on the other foot and Eric had lost $1344 based on a recommendation from Dragutin, would Dragutin be as eager to refund money to Eric? The real question is whether Nicholas Cole should refund the money he collected from Dragutin, and the answer to that is yes, if Cole could not deliver the goods, it is Cole’s responsibility to make the refund or work out an agreement where he will compensate the buyer by doing future work.
Eric, you have done your part. You have now thoroughly trashed the name Nicholas Cole in all search engines. Since Dragutin did not ask you if Cole was good enough for a $1344 deal, but simply jumped to the confusion that, if Cole fixed your bicycle OK, he could be trusted to fix an airplane. That was his mistake.
Personally, in a situation like that, after finding out the other side of the story I jump on the crook with both feet, if that is warranted, and assist the victim in getting his money back.
However, donating $1344 to the victim only teaches him to whine, and is going to hurt him a lot more than losing $1344. Sometimes “tough love” really is the best in the long run.
DearWebby
Eric- I feel sorry for the reader but unfortunately we all must take responibility for doing our own due diligence before hiring or outsourcing anything to others. Your recommendation was based on your own experience but even if it were not, I still do not think you are liable. Let’s face it, it is always alot easier to blame someone else for the mistakes we make our our own bad choices. The person requesting this refund from you should have done several things before hiring the copywriter you recommended. 1) He should have done his own due diligence. He should have aksed for the names of other copywriters from others on forums. He should have asked others on the Warrior’s Forum if they had used the copywriter in question. He should have asked the copywriter to provide the name of 4 or 5 clients who have okayed it so he could talk with them about his work. 2) He should have explored the copywriters credentials and professional associations and contacted these associations to determine if he was in good standing and considered credible and professional. 3) He should have proceed cautiously and checked the copywriter out to see if he was a member of the BBB before he hired him. 4) He should have structured the work to be completed in phases at which time the copywriter would be paid for each phase upon its completion to his satisfaction. All phases of the work and the terms of payment and satisfaction should have been spelled out in writing and signed by each party in from of a notary public. If the copywriter would not accept the terms of his agreement then he should have found someone else. 6) He should have asked Paypal for a refund at the 30-day mark, or at least before the 45-days was up, if the project was not on schedule or being performed to his satisfaction. why did he wait with this kind of money on the line and things not going well? 7) He also should know the difference between how using Paypal or his own Credit Card directly are different, and he should have determined what his recourse was with each, where he did not receive what he paid for before using one method over the other. I won’t go on and on here, but suffice it to say that one needs to watch out for their own money and stop trusing everybody so easily. Also, we all need to be better negtiators as far as how we structure our agreements. He really should have had some paperwork in hand regarding this. Lastly, it all comes down to personal responibility and taking responsibility for our own actions, good or bad. Deep down in his heart, this guy knows that you (Eric) are not to blame for his stupidity. However, I trust he has learned alot throughout this ordeal and that will probably serve him very well from here on out. - Mike-
I did not see any point you have to liable for this transaction, even I get scammed experience before like you.
1. You promote as an Affiliate, since affiliate have no liability for the products sold.
2. Ethically, simply You helped the reader to solve his problem and right. I thing you did it.
Paston
I agree with what David had to say.Also the buyer should be aware and check this person out also.maybe Eric you need a disclaimer on your websites.
No its not your responsibility to pay this guy.But I also know how you feel.Cheers.
Eric I just did a quick Google search for “Nicholas Cole copywriter” and with just the first couple of sites and the horror stories on them I would never have sent any money in the first place never mind who may have referenced him. I certainly feel bad for him that he has been given the rearound and probably will never see his money but as you mentioned … you also retracted your refernece after you found out he was becoming unreliable. Even without that statement you are nor liable for what another human being does or doesn’t do. I also wonder why any human would mess their name and credibility up be doing wrong to someone the way Nicholas apparently has done. In my humble opinion … Eric you are not liable.
I’m trying to look at this from both sides. If we substitute a different product - say dinner - for the copywriting services, would you refund someone’s money for a bad dinner on your recommendation? Probably not.
On the other hand, this gentleman was basing his decision on your word as someone he trusts (just one more reason we have to know who we are endorsing!).
I would do two things here. I would add a disclaimer to ALL of my recommendations (paid or not) and tell readers to do their due diligence when hiring anyone. Second, I would contact this copywriter myself and ask him to make good on the contract he had with Dragutin.
Other than that, as much as I hate “passing the buck” and saying something “isn’t my responsibility”, I would have to say that this is not your issue. If you want to make a good faith effort, you can offer him a percentage of his $1344.
I applaud you for putting this out there, and it’s been interesting reading others’ opinions.
I think we all know in our heart of hearts that no one should be held liable for work (or lack thereof) contracted between two independent parties, whether they recommended them as an affiliate, at the office water cooler, or friend to friend. If Nicolas Cole was an actual business partner of yours (in the legal sense of how your business is setup), that would be different, of course.
That said, Dragutin says he contracted with the Cole based on your recommendation. I know if I recommended a service provider to someone (even to a stranger on the street) and he got taken advantage of as a result of it, I would feel it my ethical responsibility to try to help restore his loss somehow. Does that mean reimburse him thousands of dollars in cash out of your own pocket? Of course not. But…since Micah has mentioned in several of your videos how great a copywriter you are, would it really be too much to just offer to write the guy one salesletter of the same high quality you would write for yourself and call it even?
Oh, I just noticed something else. From Section 255.0 of the Purpose and Definitions Guidelines..
http://ftc.gov/os/2009/10/091005revisedendorsementguides.pdf
Under Section (c), example 8, paragraph 3.
If you had received a FREE copy of whatever Nicholas was offering, in order for you to claim it was “fantastic”… you are liable. But in this case, you are not.
Hiring an attorney costs money. Sometimes it is best to take the high road. Sounds like he lost at your advice. Surely you have made enough money to help someone who has been scammed. If there is no recourse, what do you think will happen to others????
Hi Eric,
You are not liable. I have wasted money on products and never even asked for a refund from the seller of the product, and I certainly never would ask a recommender of the product for a refund.
The guy should just chalk it up to an expensive lesson and due more diligence before hiring anyone.
I know you are a Christian and want to do what’s right, but don’t lose money on something that you didn’t even make money on.
If anything, offer the guy some free coaching and help him make wiser decisions.
I am not a lawyer and have no idea how a judge would rule on a situation of this kind. But if it came before a jury and I was on it, I would vote in your favor.
If I bought an apple in a supermarket and recommended the supermarket and their current supply of apples as being worth buying, and the person to whom I made the recommendation bought a bad apple, I certainly wouldn’t expect him or her to come to me for the price of the apple if the supermarket failed to refund the purchase price. I see no difference here.
As to your being an affiliate, there is a difference btw one who gets paid for recommendations and one who is recommending due to their own personal experience without recompense, so pre or post the new internet rulings, in my opinion the “affiliate” status doesn’t apply. This is a situation, as you explain it, of one person recommending another in good faith because of his own personal experience.
Moral responsibility isn’t an issue here as I see it. And “compassion” is a sword that could cut you to ribbons at any price and set a precedent that could cause a great deal of harm to not only you, but to others who are marketing on the internet.
But getting back to your original question. Are Affiliates Liable for the Products They Promote or Endorse? I think you need to clearly define “affiliate” in this case, as well as “promote” and “endorse,”
or restate your question as: Is one who functions as an affiliate in internet marketing, legally and/or morally responsible for any and all recommendations made in good faith based on his or her personal experience whether or not he or she is being paid by the party being recommended for his or her recommendation?
My answer would be no, not for any and all recommendations made in good faith.
I am sorry for this person’s pain. But one making a purchase, regardless of recommendations, has to take precautions no matter. One never knows about apples. Caveat emptor.
“And “compassion” is a sword that could cut you to ribbons at any price and set a precedent that could cause a great deal of harm to not only you, but to others who are marketing on the internet.”
that’s what worries me.
Why is this so difficult for anyone to accept?
Were is the due diligence before spending money with someone you don’t know. I notice he had no problem checking things out after the fact, and only as a means to get his money back from someone else.
Help me I’ve fallen and I can’t get up! Bullshit!!!
Just another one of life’s lessons - get over it and keep moving forward. Remember, what comes around goes around.
Of course you’re not legally obligated to provide a refund, and doing so in this situation could open a flood gate of issues… especially now that you’ve taken it public. There is a third option, and that is getting with the writer and convincing him that it’s in his best interest to make this right.
I fully agree with others. I don’t see where you are liable . You recommended on good faith, by what he had done for you. You can’t help he didn’t stand up to his promise . The man should not have paid him until the work was done and satisfactory.
Eric,
I read the entire PDF a couple of times as well as thinking about what you said you did. I tried very hard to put myself into your shoes as well as looking at my own life experiences. (My experience is that a Judge will do whatever he pleases, despite the facts – I lost my home when a Judge ignored the only two independent witnesses and changed 15 years of mortgage payments into rent. He found as he thought it should have been, outside the testimony form both parties involved. My entire life’s equity gone as well as any inheritance for my children.) From what I have seen the attorney that twists the truth best and plays the ‘courthouse game’ best will win – stay away from court.
From reading the emails I wonder if English is the first language of either writer.
You stated that as soon as you saw that the writer was not doing what was promised that you dropped your endorsement – this shows something good about your own policies and honesty. There are so many people that will take advantage of honesty that it is important that you not become someone that the customers of others expect refunds from.
Are you legally liable? Considering what I experienced God only knows what a Judge would do - but I believe that you should not be held liable. You saw a problem with the writer and removed your endorsement; you disclosed any relationship when the rules changed. I think you met every reasonable expectation. (A further point: the writer now owes you and thus you are also a victim of their actions). I do not believe you did wrong in any way.
What about ethically? Did the unhappy client go to the writer before of after you dropped your endorsement? Did they understand what they were asking for? (Based on the email exchanges I would have been unhappy too).
Jesus said that “…whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them… Matthew 7:12 in part. You obviously feel something about this or you would not have brought it to such a public forum. You would be perfectly proper to send him a letter that you felt no legal or moral obligation to send him a refund. I have written book and product reviews for over a decade and understand how you might feel conflicted when this person has been taken advantage of. For me, to give an endorsement is to place a part of my reputation on the line. After consideration, if I were you I would:
Write the customer and tell him that you felt in no way a legal obligation to offer him any refund. But that you felt it might be proper to send him an amount from your own pocket in sympathy for his situation, and to assist him in getting his business going – as long as he understands that in doing so you admit no responsibility or legal obligation. This only providing that you truly feel a desire to try and help him salvage something out of the situation. I would not send him the full amount but something between half and 2/3. (You might even have a third party (with no previous connection to the writer) send it. And run what you do by your attorney first so that you do not unintentionally create a liability. If nothing else the disgruntled customer might become a big Eric supporter.
Bob
Who is learning and very happy with your videos and advice!
“From reading the emails I wonder if English is the first language of either writer.”
I’ve wondered the same thing.
“You obviously feel something about this or you would not have brought it to such a public forum.”
Correct.
Well I think the concensus seems to be what I feel that you did nothing to make you responsible other than make a recommendation in good faith. We all do that every day.
In this case you are a well known web marketeer and so the “deep pockets” syndrome comes to play. He has money let him pay. I would personally like to see him exhaust his other avenues of recouping the money before he comes to you.
Of course at the end of the day it is a gut call more than just a legal call and only you can make that one.
Eric,
While I dont think you’re liable. I would also want to help the person who followed my advice. I would hope that maybe you had at least another business contact who could provide the service at no additional charge and in return you would work out with him some sort of exchange. Maybe it’s promoting their product more. Some sort of barter. I think then the customer would feel better, personally you would feel better, and the person who got involved may get some followup sales from the customer…
I feel for the guy who is out of his money but I do not think that you should pay him. In good faith, based on your experience, you recommended that copywriter.
Unfortunately, Dragutin did not have a good experience with this copywriter but I think it sets a bad precedent in general for a recommender to be held financially liable for a bad experience.
Example: I give a friend a McDonald’s coupon and tell him to try the new “McSandwich” because I thought it was delicious. My friend takes the coupon buys and eats the sandwich and gets sick, does that make me financially liable for his pain and suffering? Do I even owe him for the cost of the sandwich? I don’t think so.
If small claims court is not an option then Dragutin, as he alluded to earlier in one of his e-mails, needs to put the internet to work and let as many people as possible know how bad his experience has been.
All though I feel for the victim and his loss, I myself look at it this way, You were nice enough to recommend this copywriter, that doesn’t place you in the payment area in which the victim had plagered on himself buy purchasing without doing his homework towards the copywriter. So that marks out that you are not responsible for his actions all though they are trying times for him. I do not like to lose that amount also. I would try my best to get it back from the copywriter who had screwed the vitim for his money. Thats how I play this out.
Why did you recommend a crook?
Hello Eric.
I think your credibility may be called into account, because you recommended this writer. However you said, you did business with this same writer before, and you had a good experience. The money you paid him was much less, I think you should have a serious chat with the writer, since you recommended him, let him know you are being asked to pay for his short comings, so he, should make this right with his client, because you are not responsible for his failures.
They both need judge Judy!!! But, NO, don’t you have some sort of a “disclaimer” to let people know that you ARE NOT LIABLE for the actions (or lack thereof)of others! Use at your own RISK!!! You are a TEACHER! You gave a recommendation based on a past experience. It went south. THEY NEED TO GROW UP AND ACT LIKE MEN!!! I agree that the copy doesn’t fit the desired description and he is due a refund, but, that refund shouldn’t come from you. However, if you did give the man the money, I wouldn’t think less of you. In fact, I”d highly respect your decision. It wouldn’t look bad on you, it would just make you look like a bigger man.
Hi Eric,
I would say you should do what your heart is saying. And if I were you, without further delay I would pay him the commissions that I got out of this deal. And furthermore, to give a boost in my reputation I would even pay him the rest amount. Because, I know what you give to the Universe, it will come to you many many folds. Its your chance to grab that opportunity, Eric. Grab It!!
Thanks again for giving us a chance to participate in this.
Kamrul
Eric,
It was with good intensions that you made the referral. And I’m sure your decision to recommend a company/individual is based on your previous experience and dealings with such. You clearly made an effort to help two groups: A client and the referral company. I can’t see how you should be held responsible if the company/individual does not perform. Clearly, they could do well with the clients you send their way, but choose not to perform tasks to the abilities demonstrated by them to you in order to get refferals. Secondly, even if someone recommends a service or company to me, it is still my responsibilty to do the research…….its not your fault nor should you reimburse any monies. Just don’t reccomend their service any longer since they let you and others down.
Hi Eric, I do not believe that either morally or otherwise you are responsible. It is up to the individual to do their due diligence anytime they have a recommendation for anything, even getting a second opinion if need be. One must take responsibility for their actions. Had you received some type of compensation than that would be a different situation all together.
nope your good!
I wouldn’t refund, but you could certainly help him out with his copywriting!
Business is business and it’s all risk on the other side. I have put 1000’s of dollars into things that were recommmended and didn’t work b/c of my lack of focus or I didn’t make it happen. Hell, there was my graphic designer (now ex) who got my psyched up about an opportunity that he was into… I signed up for it and bought into a $1000 share magazine co-op and a $1800 cpa package-> 600 targeted cpa leads that from all odds were supposed to convert a few or more $3000 sales of which I got $1000 for each sale. Around 10 or so bought the upfront ebook which gave me a 25 commission, but none took the $3000 platinum package. The cpa leads were from a list it seemed to be mainly unemployed. I realized later that the sales funnel needed another middle step product but was out of my control b/c I was using someone elses lead system. So many variables. Yes, I was angry and upset about it b/c it was a side biz opportunity that went South and I lost all that money. I didn’t go back to my graphic designer and demand he give my money back b/c of his recommendation. He bought leads too that didn’t convert for him, but he did make money off of his other clients who signed up for the 3k (discount) package. Thank God I only spent money on the advertising part of it and didn’t buy in. Live and Learn!
This makes for a very good copywriting and SEO lesson. Controversy gets 238 comments and counting and you are not legally or morally responsible for this persons!!!
If I told you about this amazing deal I just got on a car at Eric’s car lot and you go there and get a bad deal or lemon is that my fault “I THINK NOT”
I am not a lawyer nor do I play one I TV, so I am not going to touch the legal aspect of this.
On the moral side, I personally would feel bad if I had a good experience with someone and then recommended them to someone else only to find out they ripped off the other person.
I wouldn’t feel like I had a moral obligation to repay the loss unless I told the person in question, “You have to use this copywriter because not only is he the best, not only will his copy sell 10 times more of your stuff than any other copywriter, but this guy is a saint and treats all his customers with respect, always delivers, etc…” In other words, morally if I had made a case that this particular copywriter was the ONLY person anyone should ever choose for their copywriting then I MIGHT feel morally obligated to re-pay the money. Otherwise, not so much.
Blessings…
Eric you owe this guy nothing, doesn’t anyone take responsibility for his own actions anymore, and to wait 45 days + to resolve the issue, he’s not the brightest bulb in the arena. Let him bite the bullet
Regina H.
• There’s no legal responsibility from what I can see. However, that’s not the real issue here. It’s your CREDIBILITY as an Internet Marketer who produces ERIC’S TIPS week after week to many loyal followers present and future.
• . Your customer, trusting you, lost out because the vendor didn’t come through.
To make matters worse it appears that Cole isn’t great at customer relations, doesn’t look to minimize problems and protect the person who recommended him.
He may have his own side to this, but in the end the happiness of the customer (who in this case is a person who trusts you as the producer of ERIC’s TIPS ), so REALLY the CUSTOMER to whom you recommended Cole is what counts.
If I were you, I would definitely offer to do the copywriting for him and this would make him happy. Plus
• maybe even tack on one of your products for good measure. He probably doesn’t expect it and will likely be overjoyed at the generosity.
This also sends a signal to your customer base that you stand behind what you’re involved with.
Bottom line Eric, this is now more about YOU and your integrity as an Internet Marketer than it is about Cole.
For the future I would require that a percentage of sales be held in escrow for a period of time, to allow for complaint .
• Also for anyone who is not satisfied with a product that they purchased on the Internet, be it with a credit card or with the Paypal credit card processor, always eventually contact the credit card company that is where you get results. If it is a clickbank product try to get the refund through them first. In my experience if you have emailed the vendor a few times about wanting a refund and they are not complying , then send them an email one last time telling them you have lost your patience and are now going to contact the credit card company stating your reasons for a refund request. Wait a few days to see if they respond offering the refund (I have done this in the past and sometimes they are offering the refund because they do not want you to go to the credit card company and complain about them). Now if the y do not respond to that final email with a refund then phone your credit card company (the number on the back of the card) and you will be directed to the department that deals with complaints. They will ask the reason why you want the refund and then you can tell them your reasons. I have always gotten my refund once I call the credit card company and I have had to do this a number of times for different reasons.
• One last note. If a vendor you bought something from informs you by email with a link showing there is a legal document stating that the product could only be returned within 72 hours ( or however long), the credit card company informed me because you did not sign it therefore is not legal. In this case I also got my refund. So the credit card company is where you will get results for refunds if you do have to take it that far. I learned this all from experience.
In the business world… What works for you may not work for another person… it’s like saying one size fits all… or an item is suitable for everyone… I can tell you the products I produce are not perfect or suitable for everyone as each individual is different… Yet word of mouth is a powerful advertising tool. If I had a penny for every endorsement made to me and I acted upon it… and it was a negative experience… I would not blame the endorser I would seek a refund from the business providing the product or service…
If I were checking creds & only got one reply, as he did, I would have sought a copywriter elsewhere. Although you probably do not have a legal liability, a moral responsibility remains & I recommend giving him 1/2 the value as a purchase credit for a future product. Full value is not out of the question, but 1/2 might “cool his jets.” You’re not out the cash & he gets something of value. Not exactly a win-win, but close enough.
There is a risk in almost everything. If someone recommended you go to a specific store and you got mugged on the way… is that guy liable to pay your hospital bill? What happened to personal responsibility and accountability? Your customer is responsible to get more than one opinion if there is a substantial amount of money involved. Surely, he must realize you didn’t make this recommendation with the ability to control the result. We have a culture that is quick you blame. Someone once said when you point your finger at someone else, you have 3 fingers pointing back at you.
Hi Eric read most of the comment most point to the fact you do not owe a refund.Legally your not bound by recommendation.Ethically you are not also bound by recommendation, people recommend services all the time.I was in business also had it happen to me someone recommended product or service they had a good experience or they had a bad experience.I recommended others to work on a project and the person did not fulfill the obligation.However you don,t always know why.Consciously it bothered me and i made one attempt to get it sorted out by having a meeting between the two parties.In my case it worked and things got resolved.But you must lay ground rules.If nothing comes of it you settled it in your mind and they both lose by not trying to work it out.It is only a suggestion you will make up your own mind as to what to do.Let you inner voice guide you.At least you will remove it from your mind?
PS Thanks for helping me still learning Push Button
Helmut Ontario Canada
Hi Eric, I am sure you had some sort of disclaimer regarding your endorsements of others products and services. I don’t feel that you should be the one to compensate the person who is unhappy with the work. That is what the courts are created for to sort out these types of disputes. I think it will be hard for him to recoup his money from you. I know that in these matters an attorney should be consulted.
My Regards Eric
Hi Eric, we sure have learned a lot from you. Thanks for sharing so openly. We are learning again.
I agree that you are not at all responsible and your disclaimer covers you. If you decide to help the chap in a practical way (e.g. making him a sales letter), let him know it is a gift out of the kindness of your redeemed heart.
Val
Caveat emptor…buyer beware. It was up to your reader to do his own investigation of the copywriter before sending him any money. Why did he send the money before receiving the copy anyway? That wasn’t the smartest idea to begin with. You, Eric, certainly shouldn’t be held responsible for another grown adult’s lack of common sense! That’s a big problem in this country/world in general…people not wanting to take responsibility for their own mistakes and trying to pin the blame on someone else. I think this fellow needs to take the copywriter to court if he wants his money back so badly, and leave you alone. If all else fails, let him chalk it up as a learning experience so he never does it again.
Eric,
How can you tell the future and the actions of another person? I don’t think you owe this man a thing. You can make recommendations all day long. Are you responsible for the action of others. I’ve been ripped off myself. I asked for refunds and some do and some don’t give them. I have been on your email list for over 2 years and I am impressed with your honesty. No fluff just the facts. My only suggestion would be for you to contact the copywriter and plead for the case for the client. I only suggest this because you are taking the time on your blog. Pray on this and God will give you an answer.
Eric,
I agree with those who say you are not legally liable. I a bit conflicted on the repayment to the customer, however.
I know the WWJD bracelets smack some of triviality, yet the apostle Paul implies that when he (Paul) says, “Follow me, as I follow Jesus.”
Having said that and surveyed other scriptures in my mind, I’m struck by the times that Jesus said that sins were forgiven even as a priority over bodies being healed.
Perhaps you could do this; the customer wanted a sales letter written. You (or your copywriters) produce well written work. What if you offered to produce the sales letter for the person? Then, perhaps a letter of kind “advice” to the guy who did not (allegedly) perform the work… but a letter in which you stress your own compassion for the copywriter, and were praying FOR him… seems like I remember that as a scriptural admonition… to do his business with integrity and excellence.
In fact, in my own business I’m strongly trying to follow the principle of achieving Radical Excellence by using traditional values that are based in scripture.
Speaking of prayer, I will pray that you will be able to leave all this behind with confidence to go forward following the vision you have.
Thanks
As one who appreciates a good glass of lemonade let’s see if we can turn this bushel of lemons into something good.
First of all, you do not have an obligation to compensate this gentleman for the money he has lost. But you do have an obligation to the world at large to see this story through …
especially since you have shared the first couple of chapters with us.
It seems that on one side of the chasm we have a gentleman who is astute enough at business to be looking for professional assistance in fine tuning his efforts. Unfortunately, Dragutin did not check this knucklehead out well enough. But we have all made mistakes.
On the other side we have a gentleman (that be you) who has an exceptional knack of communicating, teaching and mentoring others.
Hmmm….
If I had chocolate and peanut butter I would put them together and see what I had.
What if the two of you were to strike up a mini partnership and create a product, a tool, a training course, an ebook telling a story of two marketing rockstars that started off on the wrong foot, a ????
The first $1344 would go to Dragutin. The next $100,000 or so could be split 50%/50%.
You could slide me $20 and a glass of lemonade for coming up with the idea.
…. and the world would be a better place!
Paul
I have to agree with you about both the liability and reputation part. I quit relying on recommendations from internet marketers. I do my own research on whatever it is that I am purchasing. In this guys case he should not have paid the man up front. It is his fault that he got burned. Doing something like that on the net is saying I’m a sucker, take my money. Whatever you do Eric, listen to your heart, it’ll make the decision for you.
The first thing to remember is”The Buyer Beware”
secondly paying $1300+ out to what is a contractor was a little stupid,myself has over many years recommended services and products based on my first hand knowledge of these services and products. Some people don’t get as good a service product that I received, that does not make me liable for their misfortune. In the case at hand, a large proportion is the complainants own doing,he is trying to project himself as something he is not, an “expert” the info given to the copywriter is not very good, a very good copy writer would have made a better job of it, but essentially the complainant got what he asked for. Sad but true.
Eric,Here is the way I see it.
> Not Guilty period!!
>There isn’t or shouldn’t be any feelings
of guilt or remorse on your part.
>Your reputation has NOTHING to do with
THIS MAN’S DILEMMA .
> You are reachable I think by offering
any kind of refund would open up a can of worms.
>I would just say Sorry for your misfortune
next time he should check more thoroughly before making a commitment for something he knew nothing about.Your results can’t be compared to his results.
Hi Erik,
This business was obviously NOT between you and this gentleman; therefore, in my opinion, you do not have a legal obligation to refund him anything. As for a moral obligation, I don’t believe there is such a thing in this case either. Sure, you recommended this copywriter in good faith AT THAT TIME, but you did not TELL him to use this copywriting service, and it should have been this customer’s own moral obligation to check out more than one copywriter before making his decision to purchase a service - not your responsibility, Erik. In all the months that I have been following you and your teachings in this business, I know of no one else who is willing to do so much for so many with little or no compensation. In my honest opinion, I believe you have no legal, moral or ethical obligation to this customer who was obviously all too eager to pay up front for what he wanted and thought he was going to receive - definitely not something I would have done, and most assuredly I would not try to get a refund from anyone other than the entity I was directly doing business with. But, that’s just me
Eric,
IMO, you are not responsible for refunding any money to Dragutin. You made a recommendation based on your own positive experience with a third party’s service. You cannot be held responsible if the service was not satisfactory according to someone else’s experience with that same service provider.
As an example, if we were to go with what Dragutin thinks is fair, I’d have to reimburse my neighbor if they went out and bought a minivan based on my recommendation, and then something went wrong with the car and the person who sold it to them skipped town. There are many other examples I can give along this line. Suffice it to say, in addition to taking your recommendation into account, Dragutin should have also conducted his own independent research on the copywriter. Either way, in the end, it was Dragutin’s ultimate choice.
Eric, I have recently gone through a similar situation. I asked a long time friend, who has a lot of internet business experience, for a recommendation. I needed help restructuring our website.
My friend recommended a person who had done excellent work for him in the past.
Everything was moving along very well and I was making incramental payments based on work accomplished. Suddenly the work stopped.
Excuses became the norm. Next I found that the temporary website had been trashed. After that the actual business website was trashed.
I was out money and out of business. It was impossible to prove who was responsible for the destruction and the lady that had been doing the work refused to communicate.
After giving the situation a lot of thought, I decided it was not my friend’s fault because he had acted in good faith. If someone or something unexpectedly turns sour that is unpredictable.
Only God knows what’s around the corner.
Next time I’ll be far more careful.
And thanks to my friend, we are back in business.
Eric and all members,
As previously mentioned, I’m willing to cough up a few bucks, should Eric decide to refund this “Dragutin *&^_(t”.
If we all agree to spend even a couple of dollars, then Eric, should he decide to go against the majority, could make the refund, and it wouldn’t come out of his pocket.
Eric has provided all of us with a supreme service and has mentioned more than once about giving back.
I think it’s time to give back to Eric if he so desires.
Terry,
South Korea
Eric,
You have no obligation, legally or morally, to pay him. That being said, even despite your well-founded concerns about people taking advantage of you in the future, it might be a kind gesture to pay him a couple hundred bucks. If you decide to do this, please chat with your lawyer first. You would want a statement signed or acknowledged by him that you don’t actually owe him anything at all, that you’re doing this merely because you’re a good guy, and that he agrees not to complain about/badmouth you about this incident in any forum, public or private.
Just my .02.
Eric,
While I feel for this person, the question here is this… you had a good experience doing business with this copywriter, and you recommended him based on your experience.
Is it your fault if this person one day decides to become dishonest in his business dealings? That answer would be no.
Any of us would feel absolutely terrible if we were in your shoes, and most of us might even feel a bit responsible because of our part in such a transaction, but as I mentioned, none of us are responsible for the decisions of another. To set such a precedence could prove a disaster to your business, and to others as well.
My suggestion…
If it eases your conscience, and you can easily afford the money, you might consider paying. You must be able to sleep at night. But if you do so, you need to clearly state that from this moment on that you will not be liable for such transactions, and that you refunded this man strictly from the kindness of your heart, not from any legal obligation.
Make it a part of your site policy that consumers all know the golden rule… “buyer beware,” and that we are all responsible for our own decisions if we decide to do business based on a good experience you had.
Are you legally responsible? No.
Are you morally responsible? Only you can answer that question, but I don’t think you are. There are no guarantees that any person will provide the service they promise, and none of us can bear the responsibility of another.
One other point to consider, perhaps, if you are considering paying him, would be to pay half. After all, he should have researched this man and his business before paying him. He needs to accept that as being his responsibility…all of us need to remember that.
Good luck to you, I hope you come to a solution you can be happy with.
Greg
I’m in general agreement with the rest of the responders, especially Rudy. I would be cautious though, so it would not seem like an admission of responsibility. It is a tricky legal problem, and I am not a lawyer. Having been on both sides of the problem–as a “seeker of truth”, and a copywriter, I find myself coming down on your side. You did not have any monetary agreement with the writer. Before shelling out $1300 some dollars, I would demand a written statement of work outlining exactly what was to be done, what deliverables were expected, timelines, content, and approval provisions. As a purchaser of internet products and services, I would never depend on the word of a person or organization without first getting a second opinion, especially for that amount of money.
No, Eric, you’re not reliable.
Your major mistake was not recommending ME. I am the greatest copywriter in the history of the world (my mother assures me) and I am an honest man. I do not take money for work not done.
Well give us your link then!
Hi Eric. You are not liable to pay this guy and I think if you were talk to a lawyer they would say the same. Here in N.Z
we have the disputes tribunal which is what he could use if he is not satisfied with the service he was provided with. As the others have said you were satisfied with the service you got which is your opinion and the other guy has his opinion of Nicholas Cole
I’m not sure I have the whole story. Have YOU had complaints about this copywriter from others you recommended…and then still promoted your affiliate link on your site? The $197 you paid is quite a jump from the $1300. your client was charged…did you know or do you get the lion share (assuming payment)?
I’m not sure how long ago this was but when I use paypal, I always pay using my credit card so that I can be assured the refund occurs. Don’t know what cc he uses…but that has never stopped my cc Co. from issuing a conditional credit and I have yet to have it reversed. I’ve been able to get refunds well past paypal’s limitations.
After saying ALL of that…I am an online entrepreneur and I value every single customer that I have…so I wouldn’t hesitate to refund something like this. I don’t see it as a “fault” thing…and frankly, I’d pursue whoever I refunded on behalf of.
Regardless, I think everyone should BEWARE that refund policies aren’t always TRUE…just because someone puts a guarantee in writing, doesn’t mean they are true to what they say. I’ve had several affiliates promote junk to me and when I asked for a refund, they ignored me. That’s why when I use paypal, I always select my cc instead of the funds in my account.
Their written guarantee is ALL the cc Company needs to see.
No, the complaints came after the recommendation.
No I was not aware of the $1300+ deal that was made. I believe Nicholas was supposed to pay me about 20-30% commission. I do not have the exact #’s, because apparently Nicholas cancelled his 1shoppingcart account or something, because I cannot log into my affiliate account.
I gasp when I see what he paid for the services of this copywriter. That is nearly 10 times what you said you paid. No matter how much Dragutin needed done, the PRUDENT thing for him to have done is to do a small test before committing the farm. The copywriter is liable for services paid for and not rendered. Dragutin seems to me to be taking advice blindly. As an affiliate, I suppose this kind of thing surfaces periodically. That does not make the affiliate responsible for bad judgment. He made a business deal with someone other than you. Where does personal responsibility come into something like this?
No, my friend, you owe him nothing either legally or morally. If you wish to compensate him out of charity, that is a totally different thing.
Eric,
In my opinion, you are certainly not legally liable. It would make the requesting party very happy to see you pay, and I can certainly tell that you are very compassionate about this person’s plight. But, and this is the “biggie” — you would be setting a huge precedent that everyone you recommended would have to please all those who followed your recommendation. Apparently that is not always going to happen. I don’t know how you phrased your recommendation, but with your broad exposure, you would probably be prudent to tell your prospects and clients of your experience without giving any SPECIFIC recommendations for 3rd party purveyors.
Eric, sorry if this comment comes through twice. It didn’t seem to ‘take’ the first time. You have three questions:
1) Am I liable. This means would a judge in a court find you liable. No. A judge would not.
2) What is the moral thing to do. This depends on what moral code you adhere to. If YOU say it is immoral not to pay Dragutin … then it is immoral not to pay him.
3) What is the thing to do here. Try to create new value where none existed before. E.g. tell Dragutin you want to help him out, and what you will do is — free of charge — make him an affiliate for one of your most expensive products. And then you will remit to him 90% of all sales he makes, up to $1344. Then he can keep selling on the regular affiliate commission rate.
This doesn’t cost you anything. It makes him whole. And it builds better good will than there was before.
Pay the man. Here’s why.He is your customer or at least you wanted him to be.I see the comments are in favor of not paying it, but the reasons that you should are:
1)He felt he could trust you - If you pay him he’ll know that he can.
2)He quite possibly could buy products from you in the future that will be much more than the $1400. If on the other hand you don’t he will NEVER buy from you no matter who writes your copy.
3)You made a mistake because you recommended
the writer and YOU did’nt check to see if he had been endorsed by the BBB.
4)As long as in the future you recommend only products/services/people which are so endorsed you will probably NEVER get another email like the one you received from him.
5)Bottom line is you will be out $1400 which you can recoup and you will gain a loyal customer who is’nt afraid to use his credit card and BUY and you will feel better doing it this way rather than not.
I do not think the BBB makes endorsements, but I know what you’re saying. Actually many of the things I recommend are probably not listed with the BBB. In fact I’m not even registered with them. I do think the BBB is a good resource to check companies out, and they serve a good purpose when it comes to consumer protection. But I wouldn’t rule out someone’s integrity just because they aren’t listed. I personally don’t support them, because they are a for-profit business that IMO masquerades as a government authority, and they try to pressure businesses into coughing up registration fees or risk being labled a fraudulent business.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the BBB is a bad company, but they ARE a business, and I think they push the envelope with some of their local marketing tactics, which is ironic.
I hesitate to even write this, because I don’t want to be blacklisted by them or something, LOL.
Seems to me that he made a mistake believing the guy’s “Storyline.” Yes, you endorsed him from your experience, but supposedly we are all adults and as such need to take responsiiblity for our own actions. I’m in the hole around $10,000 for a renters “storyline”– an expensive lesson for me, and also for Dragultin for perhaps not trusting his gut!!
Look at it this way. If every newspaper that recommended you vote for George W. Bush is not being held liable for the death and destruction that idiot brought into the world, why should you be liable for the carelessness of someone who failed to give due diligence to his business research? He should have reasoned that your opinion is just one of many and that he must do his homework and develop his own opinion. Why is it that Internet Marketer wannabe’s act like sheep? Wake up people! Don’t believe anyone, even a good guy like Eric. He can be wrong, as has been proven in this instance. You must learn to think before acting. By the way, anybody can be a copywriter so why spend all that money on an unproven entity? Do it yourself! Especially if you’re a beginner. Frankly, if you can’t write your own copy, you probably belong on a factory assembly line somewhere. Eric didn’t cause this guy’s misery but he really should be more careful and distance himself from the majority of online marketers who are mostly liars. This business is full of criminals, just like the real world.
Legally, you’re not liable. Ethically, you’re not liable. If you want to sleep soundly at night and not worry about this whole matter, you could attempt to negotiate a settlement at somewhere between 20-50% of the transaction just to put the whole mess behind you. If Dragutin doesn’t like this, he’s SOL. If he accepts the settlement, the incident ends, but I think you could be setting a dangerous precedent by offering a settlement in this scenario. Everyone that does business on the internet at one time or another gets screwed or takes one in the shorts and just accepts it as a cost of doing business on the internet and tries to minimize the number of times it happens to him or her. If Dragutin makes an incident out of this whole thing, the word gets around and no one will want to do business with him. Even though the internet covers the whole world, the business side of the internet remains relatively small and I wouldn’t push it if I were him, because word gets around fast and no one will want to do business with him. So, I guess my position in this incident is no settlement and no refund. If you lose a subscriber, you’ll live. Dragutin should just accept the whole incident and push forward. He’ll live, and will actually garner some respect by accepting his loss. It happens. One just tries to minimize the number of bad experiences.
Hi Eric
That situation with Nicholas Cole reminds me of a situation that somewhat resembles this one.
I had given a contractor a downpayment of over 1000.00 to have him install new windows in my house. After he got the downpayment, I did not hear from him for a few months so I decided to contact him. However, I could not reach him by phone, so I wrote to him. He of course did not answer.
After a few months went by I received a letter from a lawyer who had been approached by others who “had been taken” and was asked if I also wanted to add my name to the list. I prayed about it, and somehow felt I should not, that this guy was going through “a hell of his own.” I told the lawyer I was not adding my name to the list and wrote to the contractor telling him that he would hear from me no more, that his debt to me was forgiven because I had prayed about this issue and I was given the feeling I was to forgive the contractor and let the issue go.
Six months later I received a visit from another contractor who told me that he had been approached by the first contractor and had been asked to fulfill the contracts of all those who had given a downpayment.
He then informed me that the first contractor had specifically asked that I be the first on the list to receive my windows. I was then told that the first contractor had been out of commission because of a severe mental breakdown and that was why he had been unable to fulfill his contracts.
Therefore that brings me to this question: Have you tried to contact Nicholas? Is he sick or is this lack of fulfilling his contracts on purpose?
Secondly, if I had endorsed a person and other people who really trusted me had followed my recommendation, I would try to compensate in some way. Perhaps one way would be to try to find out from Nicholas himself why he has not done what was promised.
Perhaps you could do as suggested in previous responses: somehow help this man get what he needs…a well written copy.
Upon a copy of proof of payment to Nicholas I would feel it my duty to help this person out in some way for no other reason but my name is attached to the endorsement. He needs Help. And after this never make a recommendation unless it is followed by a strong disclaimer.
Stay away from lawyers. It would cost you and Dragutin more in the long run.
Marcelle
If I have a good experience with the vehicle I own and someone asks me would I recommend that vehicle make, and I say yes; then am I responsible for all the vehicle repairs for that person should they decide to purchase that make of vehicle?
That is the problem with our society; always looking for someone else to blame. Maybe more due diligence on his part to see recent work and ask for an endorsement from a recent customer? How about using an escrow service such as eLance.com or escrow.com?
Dragnuts just learned an important lesson on outsourcing. Maybe he should invest in a course on outsourcing.
Hi Eric,
I truly believe it would be wrong on so many levels for you to take on the responsibility of refunding Dragutin’s money.
While I feel true compassion and empathy for Dragutin, I also, believe that most everyone who purchases anything via the internet, either, has or will face similar situations.
I think the copywriter alone is responsible for Dragutin’s refund. Even if you were promised a commission for the recommendation it is quite likely that the copywriter would not have paid you if his intention was to defraud or default.
Honestly, I can not see how you should be held responsible. Dragutin had up to two months to complain to his cc/bank which was long enough for him to know if the copywriter would fulfill the contract or not.
Hello Eric,
You asked for an opinion and I have read much of the email you have received on the subject. According to your own email and normal business practice, I notice the following facts:
(1) You are an Affiliate, entitled to commissions on sales through your recommendations.
(2) You made the recommendation as an Affiliate, clearly hoping to get paid the commission. Not as a good neighbor in good faith, without the expectation of any profit other than to be helpful.
(3) The fact that you did not get paid is immaterial because that constitutes a debt that can be claimed in law.
(4) The guide lines that came about later and your reaction to them are commendable but that fact does not absolve you since they are not based on a new law. They are based on law that existed a the time of your recommendation.
(5) The fact that almost the whole community of affiliates works on the basis of willy-nilly accepting and promoting links in their websites in the hope of getting commissions, with or without checking out the principal, does not absolve anyone of those affiliates from doing the necessary due diligence before enticing people to part with their money based on the affiliates recommendation. Even a simple recommendation from a person to another is not just a sugesstion. A recommendation is more onerous, and more so in the commercial environment. Your customer may or may not have asked his neighbor to recommend someone for the job. However, when he came across your recommendation he relied on it based more on your ostensible experience and knowhow of internet transactions.
(6) In the circumstances, you do bear a responsibility towards this transaction and a certain liability attaches to it. The extent of your liability depends on whether you are jointly and severally liable with your principal.
(7) As an Affilaite, you also have a duty and the right to make your principal perform and carryout its responsibility to the satisfaction of your customer, or to make an outright refund.
(8) The fact that if you make a refund it will set a poor precedent is neither here nor there. You have to do the right thing. If it costs you then so be it. Affiliates must realise that their activies are commercial business activities and therefore should have the appropriate liability insurance coverage that normal brick and mortar businesses have to obtain.
(9) You are setup as a business, not a voluntary advisor. Even as a voluntary advisor working without the motive for monetary gain, a liability is attracted by their advise. A lot of people trust you and depend on your recommendations. As an Affiliate you owe it to them to ensure to the best of your ability that those who you are an Affiliate of are every bit capable, sincere and honest in their transactions. Affiliates are not exempt from doing some due diligence before recommending their principals to the public at large.
(10) In light of your business recommendations, perhaps you should re-assess all the principals that you are an Affiliate of before continuing to issue your recommendations to your unsuspecting customers. Remember that as an Affiliate, the concept of -Buyer Beware- applies to you before it applies to your customers.
(11) An overwhelming majority of those who wrote in and expressed their opinion for or against does not make their opinion correct. The right thing to do is to do it based on the facts seen in the light of the appropriate law that safeguards the buyer and the seller. Both legally and morally you have a duty to make your principal make a full refund. If the principal does not do so, then you have a business decision to make: whether to make the refund yourself. If you don’t then you are not necessarily absolved for trying. On the other hand, if you do, it will almost certainly be good and sound public relations and marketing exercise which could win you thousands of additional customers. As one of your respondents said: Do the right thing and refund the man his money.
(12) Finally, I leave you to make your own decision.
Thanks and regards, Mohamed
Eric, I wanted to write most of what Mohamed above wrote, but I also wanted to add that the reason that for the liability is the endorsement. Simply having an affiliate who purchases ad space for their own advertising doesn’t make you liable; actively endorsing does. It’s why endorsements are generally highly-paid advertising.
It kinda sucks that you might have to take the fall, but I would recommend trying to settle for 50% of the amount, as a court case will only make the legal system rich.
This person broke the cardinal rule of investing, in paying more than they could afford to lose, by the sound of it, but making a token payment as an out-of-court settlement (with a written understanding that this ends any liability on your part) might be the best way to go.
It doesn’t seem right, but my own experience shows that this is just a losing proposition on all sides.
In the future, don’t endorse unless someone pays you a deposit for the potential damages (which should be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, to say the least).
Oh, and… disclaimers are so routinely ignored in court cases that I don’t even bother with them unless people are signing them any more.
@Mohamed
sorry, but WHAT a crock of #@*%
You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.. but if you think that we can all go through life having to shut our mouths and not interact with others and make recommendations for fear of being liable for any wrongdoings of the recommended party.. then we all may as well just give up now.
The guy should have not paid up front.
He should also get an attorney to pursue the matter to punish the copywriter..NOT punish Eric.
So Mohamed when I recommend a certain food to you and you decide you want to try it.. you then have an adverse reaction to it.. from your logic.. I am liable.
Good luck with that. If this is how you think, you are deluded.
Geees.
Oh and one more thing Mohamed,
You said.. “(11) An overwhelming majority of those who wrote in and expressed their opinion for or against does not make their opinion correct.”
Yes, TRUE.. but that line of thought means that there is no right or wrong, just opinion..so we may as well all go and be lawless individuals and who cares if public opinion says otherwise.
But, the MAJORITY of people here say NO, DO NOT pay him.
That means that there is a small group here who have an entitlement mentality, thinking the world owes them something if things go wrong and they do not take responsibility for there own actions or take action against those that hurt us.
Basically, if the SMALL majority here think that Eric OWES this guy anything, then they really need to take a good long hard look at themselves.
Now, having said that.. I would probably give this person who got ripped off a small token payment or some free training etc and stipulate it is a gift only.
Very interesting analysis.
legally I feel that you are not responsible. But being a good business person I feel that the right thing to do is give back the money. It seems that you are very successful and $1344 should be a small price to pay to maintain your reputation cause in the business world that’s all you really have. You can pay this small fee now and maintain your success or fight this small fight and loose everything. Just swallow your pride and take this small loss as an investment for future success. In the web world, news spread like wildfire. You just gotta figure out what you rather people say, that you are a lying criminal or an honest business man.
P.S.
You should handle this without hidden agendas and set-ups because you don’t know whether or not how smart this person is or if he is willing to continue doing business with you. If he does then do what above said if not, one less person to stress about and your integrity and morals are in tact.
Well, you cannot be blamed for a contract which is not made by you or even you are not a party. So, its obvious that you are not liable to pay him anything.
I think the guy lost too much money and it made him a bit crazy…..well I think it would have been same effect for me also, if I loose $1344.
Hello Eric, you recommended the copywriter after you test him out and the results you get from the job he did you said it was worth the $197, so why not recommend him, right? So my opinion is that why should you pay for someone else fault, even if you recommended him you are not in control of his actions, and that’s why you shouldn’t be the one to pay the price, I feel it for Dragutin but he shouldn’t be asking you for a refund from a money that you didn’t collect, you didn’t took his cash and that’s why he shouldn’t ask you for it, but if you want to give him some of the money back it will be a kind gesture, it is not that you’re guilty why you’re helping him, is because maybe it wasn’t fair what the copywriter has done, even if Dragutin did made a mistake and paid upfront, the copywriter should have been honest
Hello Eric,
It’s quite unfortunate for what has happened BUT with all honesty and truthfulness, I believe you are not liable nor responsible of any refund to the said reader. As it’s always been your practice, you did recommend the services of the said copywriter based on your first-hand experience and also in good faith. Should any gains have been realized as a result of this salesletter, I don’t think the said reader would have cut you any bonus as a way of thanking you for a good referral. In the same vain, he has to swallow any losses as a result.
The bottomline is, whoever is the recipient of the said amount is the one who has to do the refund and in this scenario, it is the said Mr. copywriter.
That to me is the fairest deal.
Stay Blessed and don’t give up, for those who are for you are more than those who are against you.
Hi Eric,
I think sometimes when we trust someone and their judgement we tend to act on their recommendation without doing our own leg work so to speak. This gentlemen did trust your judgement and recommendation and as a result has gotten burnt. It is a difficult situation to be in. But at the end of the day he needs to realise that it was just a recommendation from your own experiance and you cant be held responsible for the fault of the copywriter.
Good luck.
Legally, you’re not liable. Ethically, you’re not liable.
I have to agree with the majority, you do not owe him a refund, however, in the future you should include a discalimer within your testimonials explaining that the testimonial is given because you expect to receive compensation thru affiliate commissions and that you actually have not done your
due dilligance as to confirming the honesty of the individual nor can you vouch for the quality of the service that will be provided !
/// tough choice eric, glad i don’t have to make it, and ur not liable, but i’d either pay him, or offer to split it. he seems like a reasonable customer and will repay you, perhaps, many times over in the future, who knows? kurt!
Howdy Eric,
There is a lot of good advice on here. However there is some not so good advice here too. I am of the opinion that if you pay part it may make you culpable for the entire amount as a court may see that as an admission of guilt.
Since you did not do anything wrong I would not pay anything.
There are several things that Dragutin did not do right. He should have checked the guy out better before the purchase. He should have asked for references from other customers besides you. (From 2 Cor. 13:1 In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established) Now that is good advice not only for an accusation, but also good for doing business with a stranger. Dragutin should have talked to other customers and verified that they were all happy too. He should have used Escrow, or made an agreement for 1/2 down and the rest on delivery that puts each person at equal risk. He should have started proceedings at an earlier stage to remedy the pay pal situation, Since it seems that you did not have a part in the deal, you aren’t liable for any of it, you can’t even give him back an affiliate fee since it was not an affiliate transaction. It seems to me that at the least, had Dragutin involved you from the beginning for advice on how to do this deal, you may have at least been able to give him some hints on how to do it the right way. But you didn’t even give him any personal advice gone bad. It was an un-compensated referral. Instead it seems that he has run out of options and your his last hope.
I got ripped off for $4000 by a really big Internet marketer a few years ago who told me I had a great story that needed to be put into a book. He was going to help me author my story by teaching me to release the author within me. Then he hooked me up with a writing coach who told me that this story was not marketable and I needed to discover my passion. When I tried to get my money back from this fast talking marketer he told me he had already paid the commission to the the coach he put me with, besides he did not offer a money back guarantee and I just needed to go back to the guy he set me up with and work it out.
I was bummed, still am, but I just chalked it up to stupidity on my part. I have learned that some people will tell you whatever it takes to separate you from your money and that they have no integrity. I just refuse to be like them. I now know that I will not be so gullible in the future. I would not buy anything without a credit card or paypal and if they don’t deliver in a timely manner I report them and ask for a charge back from the CC or paypal.
I do know this much about you Eric, your as honest as the day is long and you are also generous with your time, treasure and talent. I think it is a hard lesson to learn, but it is not the end of the world it is not your place to pay. This is not even a question of your integrity and by putting it out here in the public eye, you are keeping it in the light. That is a good thing.
Oh and just getting the copywriters name out in the light is a good thing too. This will come back to bite him in the long run. Isn’t the internet nice. Screw somebody and your name is forever tarnished.
Only other thing is to try small claims court. Of course I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV but I have met a few.
Onward and Upward,
Pete
Good to hear from you Pete!
I do not think you are liable, either. First of all, your word is not foolproof. There is ALWAYS the possiblity of being wrong about anything we promote or are connected with. That is the whole point of the disclaimers we are required to provide. I have been scammed, too, and guess what? It was my own fault. I followed someone’s recommendation which may have been made in good faith, but, like the old adage goes, “the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.”
I don’t get it. You said you spent $197.00 with Mr. Cole and this guy spent $1344.00. He should have started low,however everyone makes mistakes and we are responsible for them.You don’t owe him one red cent. If anything, send him a lolly pop.
Sorry Eric that you got mixed up in this. Small claims court is somewhat out of the picture as there are two different countries involved here UK and US. I say tough luck to the client. The service you received for USD197 was what you expected, you were satisfied. Looking at the copy he was presented from the writer, yeah I feel he was duped. I may not be able to write it myself, but hey it does not look any different than what is out there. It looked like a cut and paste job. USD1344 is a bit much. USD197 may be a stretch. Waiting more than 45 days to claim a refund from PayPal, maybe the guy did not read the fine print in PayPal’s rules, or he was hoping to get a better copy.
I’d say you are not responsible for anything. Your recommendation was before the new law was established. Sorry Eric, let it go. It would be a good Christian feeling to make restitution, but like you said - every Tom, Dick and Harry would be pounding down your door for refunds, from other legit web sites that would say: “tough luck - take it or leave it”, just because you recommended them.
Maybe you can help him write a copy as a good gesture for free, but he probably would ask for a refund for that also?
I agree with Roar completely, and I am also a Christian.
I feel that in the end its just money. And even though you are not legally responsible for refunding him the money, he did act on what you said. And since he did and in good faith believed that he would get the same type of service that you did. He was expecting to get what you got and he didn’t. So he did what he should of done, all the other ways of trying to get his money back. Nothing happen.
He must be new at this to pay all the money up front. But he acted on good faith and in the end that is what counts.
Maybe offering him products or your time would be better than just handing him over the money. Help him so he doesn’t get taken again.
This is one of the reasons for the new ruling because this is probably happening to more than just you.
Celebrities give testimonials all the time.
Do you chase after them for a refund if the product did not work for you.?
kim….Hi from another of the same but different.
Yea so i just wanted to let u know that hairdresser u said was great? well i went to see her …took two months to get an appointment, so I’m thinking that you must know what you’re talking about….right.
I asked just for a trim on the style that i already had that was looking shaggy…..omg she chopped my hair like no one else….remember you said she really knew her stuff and could really highlight my hair and make me look like a kid again? Wrong..but she said that she did everything that i asked of her and no refunds…..so I’m think-in’ …..you refund it right. by the was she pricey’…$375.00. What do you say when they all ready took the first cut and right in front?…..No way put it back that’s way shorter than I requested.
I knew you’ed understand so i’m sure you’re all ready writing the check and lickin’ the stamp to make things right….huh….?
Don’t think so even though you feel bad that my experience wasen’t at all like yours but …lets face it you have no control what that , or anyother person, including but not limited to ANYONE!!!! that is of course unless you’re my ex-husband and well he did for a while till the yo girl wake up light blinded me.
all right so you don’t know me and back to you so this is just another possible situation that would example that ultimately explains that we are human….and you might look at my new doo and think wow…that cut looks soooooo great on you when i’ve been crying my eyes out over the whole thing. It seems to me that 1st. hella lot of money for one sales letter and that this also is quite ironic since the materials he’s trying to market are saying what!!!!? he needs to read what he’s selling..by the way one of the “gurus” that He likes I don’t particurally care for even though I like the total message that is the bottom line.
We are our own maker so even though Eric had satisfactory results and “mr.hey dude look at all the corespondance writing that was done” I’m thinking phoey with the ghost you have plenty to say yourself”
The feeling that i have from all the correspondance …..is….there was no scam here. He’s obviously written for others who had total sattisfaction…i can’t get no so i’m glad some have , but back to reality are all the satisified consumers responsible to refund whomever, that is not me and has diferent tastes, likes and dislikes…etc? If that is the bottom line there’s a lot of people out there that need to send me checks.
Let’s b real and thankfull sthe stepford wies was just (so far!) a movie and we live in a country where being different is what keeps us spinning!
I hope that whoever reads my reply to kim, which is ment to double as a reply to eric, dosen’t in any way
shape or form offend anyone. sincerely. It is upsetting that he feels that his money was wasted, he wanted the ghost to go by the sales letter and just change some verbage which I thought he did….I’m thinking he really didn’t want it changed at all afterall.
Dori are you a nice person? I could use some of the money i wasted trying new things that didn’t work out so i guess it’s OK for me to send you a current list for refund? what the heck is that? I want to know why some advertise that they were bla, bla, bla now they’re ;-)bla, ;-)bla, bla because they met that guy that drives around in that farrari and asked what was his profession and the next week that $$$ guy showed him this formula that bla, bla make him/her, bla bla…for free!!! why are they not willing to do the same for….lets’ say ME???
This could go onfor ever now couldn’t it?…..but if that farrari is reading this and needs a legit. new charity i’m it!
kim….you made an assumption in which u are assuming he is new to this,which makes just have to ask u. How long have you been marketing? are you making decent money? you must be to say such things, so then i ask you why don’t you refund him the money? just call it a donation!
Thanks for letting me run with it and if you’re reading this without just skip scrolling down a 2nd thank you!
All feedback/remarks openly welcome…be openminded! to all! Peace, joy, abundance, goodwill, prosperty and remember there’s plenty to go around and old dogs don’t need tricks.
I’m just trying to take it all in learn, grow and find freedom.
Not only should the buyer beware, but also the seller. I recently sold surveillance equipment to two different people. It turned out that the credit cards were used fraudulently. I did everything I was supposed to do. I waited to get a confirmation email from the processor that the transaction was successful and then ordered and shipped the products. A week later I received a call from my merchant banker saying the suspected fraud. I was able to stop one of the unit but the other had already been delivered. The next thing I know, the merchant processing company has pulled the amount of the transaction out of my bank account and froze my account. It’s been three weeks now and I am still trying to get my merchant gateway up and running, I’m out $2300.00 for the cost of the equipment. And it looks like the only ones who are protected is the Credit Card owner, and the merchant processor, even though they are the ones who processed and verified the transaction. The whole thing has made me a little reluctant to be a IM. But, I’m determined to make this work.
Back to Eric’s question, I do not think you did anything wrong. And you definitely are not liable or obligated to pay the gentleman for his loss.
Respectfully,
Phil
Eric,
This is not even a close call, you are not legally or morally responsible in the least. Unfortunately, Dragutin bears half of the responsibility in this case. He was not aggressive enough in his dealings with Nicolas. He had sufficient time to request a refund from Paypal the way he was being treated, but it was HIS choice to wait… and wait some more.
On the other hand, Nicolas Cole is not a good businessman if he doesn’t realize his reputation is much more important than a refund. And if $1344 is a lot for Nicolas to refund to an unsatisfied customer who’s acting reasonably, then he’s not doing very well finacially to begin with — maybe because this is not the first time he pulls something similar.
We all feel bad for Dragutin, but asking you for the money reflects poorly on him. He had a lot to do with the present situation and he knows it.
Perhaps the lesson here is that marketeers shouldn’t recommend any service or product that doesn’t have a 30 or 60-day refund policy, no matter how good our experience with such service has been in the past. Nicolas’ website says nothing about a refund.
I personally Don’t have the funds to do purchases. I agree with you that the recipient of the funds should be the one to refund payment. You could refund your percentage of involvement in the transaction, but this probably is not reverent. I wish you good luck in your solution of the endeavor. KEN
Eric,
Let’s say the fellow paid the writer $10,000.00 up front. Would he still want you to reimburse him for all of that. If you feel real bad for the guy, and out of the goodness of your heart, you might offer him 2 or 3 hundred bucks to ease his pain that was really caused by his lack of business acumen, if not his stupidity.
It’s an interesting point.
I’ve already mentioned that if the amount had been much lower, I’d have probably just paid it.
But ultimately, the amount of money doesn’t dictate morality, does it?
I suppose it shouldn’t matter whether it was $10 or $100,000. Whatever is the RIGHT thing to do should apply regardless of the dollar amount.
Or does our society shape our ethics based on certain dollar amounts? And if so, what are those amounts? And is that truly moral?
From my reading, it seems that you brokered a deal in which both you (the broker) and the buyer got burned. If that is the case then you certainly do bear some of the burden. If that is the case, I would negotiate a fair settlement with the buyer.
If you did not broker the transaction then you have no LEGAL liability.
Trust, however, is an important asset. We don’t usually become jaded until after our trust is broken. Innocent young people don’t have the street smarts to see through the myriad of potential scams out there. If they can’t trust a self proclaimed expert, and an honest broker, like you, who can they trust?
BY the same token, blind faith in another mere mortal is to ignore your own responsibility to do “due diligence”. Perhaps that should be your next big product. A newbies course on Due Diligence (aka Risk Management).
You acted in good faith……the hamburger I buy from my favorite burger joint may not be good anymore….
A business person needs to understand that no one can control the actions of other suppliers….
He needs to take action against the person he “actually” did the transaction with….legal or otherwise…
I am not an attorney. I am a customer service manager. As I see it the issue lies with the claimant and “he” needs to address the matter with the copywriter. If your recommendation is to be considered a liable factor then all advertising in all media might be considered responsible for products and services recommended. There is no need to try and prove that you are more than generous with providing information at no cost and while your recommendation of the copywriter turned sour has anyone considered why? Maybe the copywriter has a legitimate reason for failing.
Caveat emptor, buyer beware is about all I can say about this. I empathise with both you and the Emailer but at what point does the emailer not take responsibility for his actions and decisions. It was his decision with the information at hand to use this copywriter and unfortunately this time got burned. Next time knowing what he knows now maybe he will act more urgently and decisively and get his money back from the right person
I am sorry you feel this way, it took me a long time to make money as well, over two years and a bankruptcy later I am still hanging on. I have found a way to make money, and there is no shortcuts. I tried for two years to take the shortcut the guru’s sell you on, THEY DON’T WORK!! The only thing that works is HARD WORK. If you are willing to put in the time, you will reap the rewards.
> 1) Am I legally liable for the products I endorse or promote
> as an affiliate?
From what I have read, imo, you have done nothing wrong in this case. It sounds like you have probably already done what you need to do from the typical business stand point.
> 2) What is the right and ethical thing to do?
If it were ME and I am making as much money and selling as many products and services as you apparently are… instead of giving this person cash (and since you also OWN lots of products and services)… I would apologize and sympathize and offer to give him $1344 worth of my products and/or services for FREE that I normally charge for because I truly do want to be helpful. (It is just electrons, if you know what I mean!!) For example, if I sell web hosting or have some kind of a paid monthly members site that he can benefit from, I would offer to give him a free lifetime membership.
If he is not happy with my generous offer for a problem that happened between him and a 3rd party, then at least I know I genuinely tried to help him and I can not help it if he refuses my generosity.
“For example, if I sell web hosting or have some kind of a paid monthly members site that he can benefit from, I would offer to give him a free lifetime membership.”
That’s certainly an option.
This is the first time I’m posting on you blog…I have one thing to say: I never recommend a fellow that I don’t trust. It eventually has an impact on my reputation of a guy whose most opinions are correct and fair-play. If I were you I give at least a partial refund…just because I was wrong recommending the wrong person.
Hi Eric,
No You are right, you would start a land slide effect that would rumble throughout the internet.
The agreement was not between you and this person. They are barking up the wrong tree.
He needs to direct his case towards the person who they contracted with.
What happened to the Buyer Beware in this transaction.
Just because someone recommends someone else they need to do Due Diligence in all matters of money.
Did they check out his work and any comment on the net. Just Google about anyone and most of the time you’ll get the answer you were looking for. Why would they pay for a project in advance. There are so many places he could of put his project up for bid and would of been able to pick from the cream of the crop…
Okay for now. Eric please keep a stiff upper lip and continue to do the Good Work you have always done.
Your Friend
Don
Hi Eric,
I really feel sorry for poor guy!
Eric I also know that you’re heavily burdened by
this unfortunate issue,but be assured you won’t
be held responsible for the failed transaction
you’d recommended,neither your reputation at stake!!
Don’t ever make a refund even out of compassion,because this is morally wrong & will create a bad precedent and encourage future abuse.
What you can do now to help the victim is try to contact the writer and trash things out.
Good Luck & God Bless,
Mike
I know how the injuried party feels and have found all most every one of these work at home, affliates, and etc to be total scams with the only one making money is the instigator that preys on people’s greed to make money or having to resort to do something quickly to make ends meet. I have lost thousands to these hustlers that provided nothing to match their claims. It is my desire if I get elected and become Governor of my state to put everyone of these hustlers in prison with Bernie Matoff and throw away the key. Eric is different in that he provides information and a service to his subscribers. As a politician, I don’t endorse anyone, because you have no control of what that person does and this questions your judgement by the voters should that person commits fraud, adultry, or child sex crime. No Eric, in this case you were used by the one you endorsed to get endorsements for self gain, but it hurt your reputation.
At the end of the day, if you profit from your affiliations with these people - at the very very least you should compensate that customer with the profit your recieved from being an affiliate of such a shonky business man,
Realisiticaly, just because he didnt screw you around on your first and only dealing with him, what makes you think he didnt just do that to gain your trust so you would advertise for him?
A professional marketer does not affiliate with another company unless they have a proven track record. 1 sales letter for you does not equate to a proven track record.
Bottom line, he screwed someone out of $1344 because of you.
The sad part is you should pay him, but if you do everyone else will be on the bandwagon.
In future check out your affiliates a bit better before staking your own business on it.
If the person has a problem with the copywriter he should getn his money back from the copywriter.You have already fulfilled all yor ethical obligations by not continuing to endorse the copywriter unless at some point you specificaly in writing guaranteed the copywriters work.If that were the case then pay him.You are a successful internet enterpneur who carries a certain amount of implied trust to the buyers of your programs to people who respect the VALUE of your marketing expertise.Obviously more information from the “victim” and you is needed to make a more definitive opinion.
You owe him nothing more than a sincere apology. That this copywriter did a good job for you and not for him is on the copywriter. He should have done his own research, and probably given the copywriter a much smaller, less important project to start with to evaluate for himself if the writer was up to snuff for his needs. “Buyer Beware” should be everyone’s watch-words. We all live and breath by our own opinions, and sometimes life’s lessons get a little expensive. That’s how we all learn. You do not owe him any money. That would be paying him for making a mistake. What would he learn? That he got away with it, and I believe he would do it again and again.
I lost $1,000 last year on months of procrastanation, way past the 30 day return policy. I was told I would have my 10 active websites completed and delivered way before the 30 days were up. I finally did get the products months later.I did not feel the product was worth the investment, but it was to late to ask for a refund. I work in the construction industry. In the construction industry you have to give the customer a 1 year warranty. If, years later, the customer discovers a significant fault that was hidden from plain site, the customer has until 1 year after discovery, and not just the 1 year warranty.
On the internet everything is different. If you wait past your refund date, you are stuck. It’s no one else’s fault but your own. I lost the $1,000 and just chalk it up to experience. To this date, I have not made one penney off of those 10 websites.
Eric, you are not liable legally or morally, in my opinion.
You are not legally liable.
The buyer should have done what you did, and just got one sales letter as a test, for around $197. Payment should have been via escrow, or deposit and full payment on completion. That’s just sensible trading.
I don’t believe you’re ethically liable either. Your recommendation was on the basis of the quality and reliability of the copywriter that YOU had experienced. As you have stated, most affiliates recommend products they have no clue about!
Even though Dragutin is demanding the full cost, he will most likely not expect it.
I suggest you let him know that you are not liable for his loss, as you were not party to specifically what was contracted, nor the price. Therefore you may offer him say 1/3rd of the total, on compassionate grounds only.
Then put some pressure on Cole to reimburse Dragutin and also yourself. (Any recovered funds should go to Dragutin - up to the balance.)
“wise as serpents - harmless as doves”
Eric, you are not responsible for any refund for giving a reccomendation for a good job you received from said copywriter, that is strictly between him and the copywriter. I was scammed for $1500.00 and I know the feeling wanting to get a refund from my scammer I just had to suffer the lost. My opinion Erick
Regards
Jack
No, you should not pay the guy. You are not liable in any way as there was never a contract between you and him. It’s an unfortunate experience the guy went through but if anyone is to pay the refund it’s the copywriter who was paid in the first place.
However as a learning point, I suggest you check out a guy before recommending him - even if he’s done a good job for you. In this case he probably did a good job for you, knowing FULLY WELL that he stood a high chance of getting an endorsement from a high profile person like you. So please check the people out before you endorse them. That way you avoid such unwelcome complications.
You are not even remotely responsible to pay this guy anything. He was reaching for the last straw because of his pain but there is no way you have any obligation. He must deal with the loss. Most of us have been in that situation but we would never try to get the money from the one who made a recommendation. That is unthinkable in my mind.
Thanks Eric for sharing your dilemma with us. It does give us a valuable lesson on affiliate liability. And reading the emails to/from Nicholas, has brought me thinking: there’s some sad story behind those glittering, credit-card outpouring sales letters!
What happened to Dragutin is indeed quite unfortunate. Yet what he is trying to do to you now is worse. Clearly, he is so desperate and thinks you’re also liable for what was solely his own decision in hiring the copywriter; an act you knew nothing about.
I think if you grant him the “refund”, it’s like the end of rational thinking or the idea of personal responsibility. FTC or no FTC rules, we are supposed to be rational beings and are solely responsible for our own personal (voluntary) decisions or individual acts.
It would have been acceptable for Dragutin to ask for mercy and help from you and others to get back his $$$; to which many I guess would respond positively.
All the best,
Angelina
Obviously if you pay the gentleman the money he has complained of losing, you will open yourself up to every other person who every feels ripped off based on a recommendation you could make, in error, about someone you believe in. Believing in someone is good, but is only an opinion, and that is all you offered, an opinion. It is up to each individual to decide for themselves whether an opinion is accurate, and the only way to gauge that value is to test the weight of that opinion against other markers of indication such as researching other testimonials made by other individuals, and looking at any information that might be available publically through the BBB or other reliable indexes of assurance.
Therefore, to blindly spend 1300 + dollars based on any single expression of faith made in good conscience by a person who had a successful result, and thus made a recommendation, is still an unwise and foolish expenditure which unfortunately leaves the spender short of cash when the result is unsatisfactory. But if my friend said to me, hey I got this business card designed and made for 5 dollars over there at the store on the corner, and so I go there to get the same, there may be a different designer there that day, or the special 5 dollar sale might be over, or they might even do the job, but I don’t like what they did. In the end, my argument is with the people who did the work badly or not at all, not with the person who I met on the street and showed off his new business card. I would be an idiot to think that just because he was proud of his business card, and got it for 5 dollars, that HE should pay me back when the company he bought it from botches up the job.
Don’t Pay Him.
No you are not responsible. Refunding him could open up a can of worms. I think the repercussions would be devastating. It could turn the whole affiliate marketing world upside down. Don’t do it!
Hi Eric: Unfortunately, as far as I can tell I do not believe you to be liable for the monies paid to another vendor. You mentioned in your post that you didn’t receive a commission for this particular sale and that raises another point about liability on your end as well. Sounds like you have also been a victim of this copywriter by not receiving what was owed to you, so maybe finding others in the same boat at yourself and the person who wrote the request for a refund to you should find others that have been ripped off by this copywriter and file a class action lawsuit. I would definately pull your endorsement of this guy, if you haven’t already. I understand that Dragutin is upset about losing that kind of money and so would anyone. According to what you stated, you did what you were supposed to do subsequent to the Dec 1, 2009, FDA roll-out so I do not believe there is any monies owed to Dragutin from you. Legal action should be taken against this copywrite so he can’t do this to any more people. This is a very bad time for many people and unfortunatley, those who are having problems are doing whatever it takes to cover themselves including ripping others who are probably not doing any better than they are.
Hi Eric,
I think that the alarm bells should have started ringing when he was asked for so much money upfront!!!! Nobody pays the full price until they have the goods. he didn’t check him out on elance or whatever where there would have been more up to date expletives on Cole. He didn’t control Cole by setting a timetable for the work, I’m no expert but I would have thought it should have been done and dusted in 10 days any longer and he should have run screaming to paypal. On that basis he does not merit any financial rebate from you. You made a recomendation based on work that cole did for you, if he did good work for you then you were entitled to make that recommendation. You could refund him as a gesture of goodwill but then that would be setting a dangerous precedent and one that you might want to check the legal implications of first.
Have fun,
Mike
Well what could i say being a tottal newbe> for one this type of thing is upsetting to hear as i,am trying affilate marketing with not much succees yet! In any event i have myself learning from all over the scope of online internet marketing! Say that my be my niche re:Entrepreneurs evolving and the scope of internet marketing! Yea thats it ok no one still this i,am going to keep trying to make this thing work out!Now Eric I think you are a solid stand alone>ie:a internet marketer who can think for himself and as well, the well being of others! If you have supported this guy who did not follow up as “HE HIMSELF SHOULD HAVE” well in my opintion he is the one in contempt of wrong doing and givin the fact that as soon as you found out and looked into it, an sent him proper notice THAT you no longer support him,brother to brother you have done your part! Now as a hole do we as peoplesoftheinternet.com do we let him go on or do we track him in his new id and recincile it?
Well, If you have promoted it on your site and did not put a disclaimer of any kind, you might be legally liable to what ever referral you did.
Ethically, you could tell the person that you recommended the Copywriter based on your good experience with him. So the person who is asking for refund should take up the matter with the Copywriter not you. Do not give in easy for the matter lies between the two.
Eric you are a very nice and VERY Smart Guy! Putting this out into the public will no doubt be a reputation saving grace from something that could get ugly, if Dragutin decides to do a smear campaign on you! But mark this, YOU are in no way responsible, morally, ethically or legally! Look at it this way: -
1: I buy a great product from Big W.
2: I recommend this product and store to you.
3: You go buy this same product from the same store, but it turns out to be a dud!
Now, am I in this case responsible just because I recommend the store and product to you?
No way!!!! Especially since I was not paid to recommend anything to you by the store!! There are then 2 things you can do. You can go back to the store and get the product replaced or you can go get a refund! If neither is made available to you, you then go higher up to the ombudsman or law and try to bargain or sue your way out of it. If nothing works, then you wear the cost!
Your situation is exactly the same as the one I have just described! So to everyone who has suggested that you pay some sort of recompense just to appease this character or for the sake of your reputation, I say STOP WRITING SUCH BS!!! Eric is in no way responsible for anything and Dragutin should come to his senses!! I fell sorry for the guy, but that’s life (& especially on the internet) Thank you, Jannie Kock
Hi Eric, I dont feel you are obligated at all, especially since you never made a commission on this. Recommendations are just that - recommendations - its up to the individual to decide whether or not to buy into anything. You never forced him in any way. What I also can’t understand is why he waited so long with Paypal to put in a dispute. Even more so, why on earth would anyone fork out that kind of big money on a recommendation. I, myself have listened to alot of recommendations by marketers, some I have taken up (only if I could afford it) and some I have not. If I didnt like a product, etc once I had paid for it most of the time I would quickly put in a dispute but alot of the time I wouldnt even bother as I hadnt spent that much money. Even if I didnt like what I paid for I wouldnt approach the marketer and whinge about it for the simple reason - what works for some doesnt necessarily mean it works for others. I think the scenario of what you are going through is what all affiliate marketers are afraid of nowadays. Keep your chin up, I still think you are a champion. Regards from Down Under, Karen
Hello Eric, You are not obliged to provide a refund whichever way you may look at it.
This is an unfortunate situation and more so for Mr Dragutin. But, it is entirely up to the person concerned to do their own research.
Do I now sue my best mate for recommending a horse to win in the 14:40 race at Ascot last year?
It’s a bit of a mess but it’s not your mess to solve.
All the best,
Andy
(Czech Republic)
Wow Eric! What a mess. I’m with you I try to look at things from a Christian prospective and from what I read he needs to get restitution from the copywriter that ripped him off and not you. I appreciate your spell checker on here to keep me from looking like a fool with all my misspellings but, even more than that your willingness to pay this fella even though you don’t believe it’s your responsibility.
Here again I’m with you on that! That he is coming after the wrong guy for his money back.
Personally I felt ripped off from a realastate sales product for 5 grand myself and just counted it as water under the bridge and cut my losses. I wish it was only 13 hundred!
If you are playing with the baby’s milk money then you can’t really afford to play! Life is tough and we all have to be responsible for our own actions.
Have no idea what Nicholas Cole’s problem is and why he didn’t fulfill his agreement with you and pay your commission or do what he said he would do for you little buddy. He is not only hurting himself but, the rest of Internet copywriters and marketers in the process.
The bottom line is Nicholas is the one to make restitution or step up to the plate and finish the job he started.
And from the looks of it he just shot himself in the foot with this one because, whenever someone Google’s his name this post is going to show up and he’ll be out of business soon.
Just hope Nicholas knows how to say “would you like fries with that?”
Personally I think that was your whole plan to begin with. Get enough comments to push this post to the #1 position for the name Nicholas Cole and use it as a bargaining chip to have him pay up and you would pull it off the web.
But, hey I’ve been wrong before just not this time. LOL
Legally, no you are not responsible for the transaction let alone issuing a refund for an unsatisfactory service/product by a 3rd party.
But, If in all the going ons between your reader and the service provider you were at all involved in the dealings and received a payment in return, then yes you are liable to compensate the client atleast the amount of commission received.
Since this is not the case, morally you are also discharged of any responsibility. You did the right thing to remove yourself from recommending this person further. If I was the reader (and yes, I have been scamed many a times too) the most I would have asked you to do is, to atleast step in and liase with the service provider to help resolve the situation.
In closing, just a thought to ponder on - after seeing an ad on TV one proceeds to purchase the product advertised, then arises a dispute similar to this - would the TV station that aired the ad be responsible? They were paid a fee after all - my opinion is no, they are not! On that note, with all things said you are only obliged to offer your reader sympathy for the loss and he/she should claim it from Uncle Sam as part of their tax claims.
Hi Eric,
As far I am concerned you have always been one of the good guys out there.
There is no way you would have recommended this copy guy except in good faith.
I don’t see that it is your position to pay back the money.
The fact you didn’t even get paid a commision makes your link to this copy guy even less remote. The transaction is between these two individuals. I have had friends and family recommend services to me that have been disastrous. However, it never even crossed my mind to seek reimbursement from those who made the recommendations. This just defies common sense in my opinion.
Whatever you do don’t pay, if you do all of us will be held liable for our affiliated products. This kind of precedent will destroy IM.
Even if it was $20 it is the priciple here. We can not be responsible for the producer’s business.
This guy should take the copywrighter to court.
I agree that this should be a matter of principle and not dollar amount.
He needs copywriting. As a gesture of goodwill only, supply him with the copy he needs. Simple.
Hello Eric,
OK… so you drive a Ford Explorer. You love the vehicle and it’s never given you any problems. It’s been dependable and trustworthy. Based on this experience you recommend a Ford Explorer to a friend, who sad to say, gets a lemon. Are you obligated to pay back your friend? Absolutely not!
Sometimes bad things happen to good people. I feel for the gentleman as I was burned on an eBay transaction to the tune of $2,700. The guy had good feedback, until he decided to close down shop and run with all the money he had been paid. Up until that point he did what he was supposed to, but something changed.
He provided a quality product for you at one time, so your endorsement was based on good faith.
You are not legally liable (in my opinion), nor should you offer to compensate him. As you state, if you do this some unscrupulous people may try to take advantage of you.
I wish you the best, and I hope the gentleman is finally compensated by his credit card company.
Although this was not the case until recent years, I now strive to take full responsibility for every experience I have in my life and I encourage everyone (including you and this reader, and all your readers) to do the same.
Ultimately this means being willing to experience myself as the creator of each experience I have in life.
It’s not always easy, especially if I want at times to be right that something or someone else is at cause in what I experience (either because I want to blame, or because I want to honor, as in honoring God as the creator of all those things that I seem to have no control over).
But I have discovered through inquiry that there is ultimately no cause unless I say or believe so. I am always free to not put the word “because” between any two facts about my life, and I have found that when I do that, I can create freedom from any one thing WITHOUT having to first deal with or get rid of the presumed causes of that thing. This is the quickest way I know of to create unconditional freedom from any unwanted condition in my life and it always results in inner peace.
From that state of inner contentment and clarity, it is then easy to figure out what is the right course of action to take and have productive conversations with other parties if needed.
Rather than giving advice, I prefer to ask questions that help the person seeking the advice to discover their own answers inside where they have always been (they have just been hidden behind all the inner noise created by what they learned from all the experts touting their various theories of cause and effect)
So I won’t give an answer to your questions “Am I legally liable?” and “What is the right and ethical thing to do?” but I can assist you in getting clear answers for yourself that may or may not conflict with the majority of your readers’ opinions on this, and either way you’ll be at peace knowing that you did the right thing.
Many may think this is impossible, but isn’t it worth considering as a way to resolve life’s problems? I know it works when I apply it. And it has worked for most if not all of my clients when they applied it.
Eric,
I do not think you are legally or morally responsible to refund the money. He should know better than to pay 100% up front.
However, I would be a nice guy and split the difference with him since you did make the recommendation. Give him your Copywriting Pack and anything else that adds up to $672 worth of your digital only products. Costs you nothing but helps him out and makes it easier for him to swallow. Good luck!
Eric,
I do not think you you should be responsible for services rendered by someone other than yourself, also from reading the correspondence provided the customer in question should have raised a red flag to Paypal etc. long before he did. Also, not to take the role of the Devils advocate but…from what I read the customer could have (and to me at least) should have been a bit more clear with his expectations from the copywriter. In summation I look at it like this…If I buy buy a book and after reading it decide I don’t like it and I write to the author to get a refund and they tell me no am I justified in going to the person that wrote the glowing review for the New York Times and ask for a refund? Of course not! I really don’t see any difference here…
I appreciate your dilemma and honesty Eric.
I don’t think that you have any obligation whatsoever to pay anything because you acted on good faith. The guy should not have paid the copywriter up front, that was a mistake in my opinion. A costly one.
Personally, if I was in your position I would compensate the guy financially in some way. It would lessen the blow a bit for him and it would make you feel better about it too. Listen to your head and your heart.
It just goes to show you that its very hard in regard to testimonials, (I have been ripped off too) in the past, its embarrassing. Also its hard to know who to trust when you are buying online.
In this case the gentleman involved appears to be claiming that it is your fault (Eric) because he paid for a product. Well he does have a mind of his own. So he is responsible for his loss. Sadly situations like this happen to often and it makes trying to make money online very difficult for those that are honest. Eric I think the lesson in this for you is be careful of being guilty by association.
So in the future you will need to take great care in what products and whose products you endorse because you have such a large following of people paying so much attention to what you say.
So in some respect you are responsible for him buying or hiring the product so to speak because he had faith in you and what you were endorsing, but you are not responsible for the amount of money he spent as that really was his choice to go with it.
Some how some way If some type of gesture of goodwill towards this gentleman to help ease his pain, and sort out some of the damage that has been done.
I wonder what Jesus would do in this situation.
Eric I suggest you pray and see what God has to say here to you. Personally I do not think it was right that you posted this on your blog site as it will only add to the man’s shame and embarrassment because he was duped. I only hope that is not his real name in the letter for us all to see.Paypal will never refund as I have had that experience twice with them now. May be all your students could get together with some Ideas and have a competition to see who can come up with some really good copy for him, to some how ease his pain. I think some type of help in this situation would turn out better for you further down the track Eric, and I am not saying that you should pay him either.Only you yourself can answer the question you have put out there.
We reap what we sow. So To every would be marketer. What ever you sow, So shall you reap.
“Eric I suggest you pray and see what God has to say here to you.”
Absolutely.
“Personally I do not think it was right that you posted this on your blog site as it will only add to the man’s shame and embarrassment because he was duped.”
He knew I was going to post it, because I told him so when I asked him for the additional information. I was a concerned about this too though, which is why I made it clear that I would have done the same thing in his shoes. I hope he does not incur further shame as a result of this.
Hi Eric,
I had a problem like this many many years ago.
The difference was that I was earning affiliate commissions from the promotion. What I did was say to my list that if anyone was unhappy and couldn’t get a refund from the seller, I’d refund their money personally.
I lost money on the refunds I paid because they were for the full product purchase price which was more than my commission on the sale.
However, it was worth it to me to salvage a situation where I’d made a bad endorsement.
You should do what your conscience says. You are less “liable” than I was, in my opinion, because you didn’t earn a commission. However, the customer did act on your recommendation.
Given your relationship with the seller, can you lean on him to issue a refund? That would probably be my resolution of choice in this situation.
By the way, kudos for raising the issue in public. Not many marketers would do that.
Neil.
Always good to hear from you Neil.
Eric I just wanted to know how do you really feel deep inside about this whole situation. I think its only something that you can really answer. What is the Holy Spirit saying to you about this? What is your inner core or gut saying to you. Not your external emotions. I feel what ever you do just pray first because God is Greater. You do not need all of our opinion on this matter!
Has this post been put up to justify, that you may have already made up your mind in this matter?
“Has this post been put up to justify, that you may have already made up your mind in this matter?”
That is a GREAT question. No that is not why I made the post. I absolutely do want to know what my readers think.
However, I would not go so far as to say my heart is 100% pure in the matter. I mentioned in another reply, I am an opportunist. And I saw the opportunity for a good blog post.
So while my intentions are sincere, I do have multiple motives.
I appreciate your honesty
Hi Eric
I am sorry you are having problems such as this, but as marketers we could all find ourselves in this same situation if we recommend someone elses products.
What I would suggest is that you email the person involved and explain that you are not responsible, because at the time you recommended him you had already used the service and were very satisfied with it.
You decline to pay him any money explaining you are not liable, but then as a gesture of good will offer to take the sales letter he has had written, and get someone else to rectify what he is not happy about.
I am sure that you know other copywriters that you trust that can give you a great sales letter.
This will give this person the sales copy they are after and help to make them feel much better.
For you this may well cost you a couple of hundred dollars to get a great sales letter done for him, but a few hundred dollars is worth paying to know that your good name stays intact, and you can sleep better knowing that you have done the right thing.
Also you could not buy the sort of good publicity this guy is going to give you if you help get him straightened out.
Garry
“as a gesture of good will offer to take the sales letter he has had written, and get someone else to rectify what he is not happy about.”
It’s a good option if all else fails. It would be cheaper than coughing up $1344, and it would be less time consuming than writing a sales letter myself that I would normally charge $10k for.
I say this is a person that took your advice on good faith. They trust your judgement enough to fork out 1344.00 bucks. There for you with all your tallent should come up with one of your marketing tactics to cover his expences. But before you do you should have access to what was provided to him in return for his cash by the copy writer so that you can evaluate it your self to see if it lives up to what you recievied. You only paid 197 for your request.Why so much more for this custmer? This is a good way for you to get responces to your marketing and may be a key to success in the future. Put a good question to your readers then see what kind of responce you get. Then add a cookie for them to chomp on. Any way get the knowledge and facts before you make up your Mind either way. If the person will not supply the material you request. A copy of the letter that was wrighten for him. Then flat out refuse payment. If you have his trust and he is in the right with a bad deal that he recievied because you guided him in that direction, Then by all means Keep his trust, for in the future you may need him on your side.There are not alot of peple that will fork out that kind of money on a word, and yours is golden in this persons eyes.Good Luck and Let me know how this turns out.Jeff Burch
Hi,
I strongly believe this is an issue between the person who made the purchase and the person who he purchased from, I cannot see any reason why you could be liable for this.
Stay strong!
Henrik
Hi Eric, you have a tough call to make. I feel your pain on this matter and only hope that the issue can be resolved peacefully.
In my opinion you are not liable to repay this person any money. He did render the services of the copy writer from your recommendation, however as mentioned many times before, he should not of paid for services up-front or without going thru an Escrow first.
What is the point of attaining knowledge of a product or service if we(has a community or society) cannot use this knowledge to help one-another out by expressing our opinion, satisfaction or dis-satisfaction of that product or service if it helps our “fellow man” save time or money from our giving of that knowledge.
I am a firm believer in Karma or “you reap what you sow” or as Kern says it “give people what they want and you will get what you want in return”. I am not saying that you should give him the money, but in my opinion if you provide him with some of your own products or services, the “act” will return to you a thousand fold.
As an act of good faith as well for you providing your services to us as readers of Eric’s Tips, I would like for ALL of us to offer our services or a small monetary donation to you to help provide this person with the much needed help that we all would deserve and like to receive if we were in his shoes. As of this post from me, there are 349 comments, that is only $3.85 that we all would have to make to help this person and make Eric the Hero here which in my opinion he is fully deserving of.
In doing so, may Karma return our kindness a thousand fold for “doing what is right” here.
thanks for you time.
Wilf C.
Dear Eric,
I have no real interest in this problem of yours. My major concern is that I purchased Ewen Chia’s product Fast Track Cash through your link several weeks ago on the the basis of the promised bonus, an item of rebrandable software. As instructed, I emailed the ClickBank receipt to the requested address with the requested heading, expecting to receive the download instructions. I never received them. I have submitted a support ticket, which was logged successfully, but when I subsequently checked, it was gone with no reply. I submitted another and have just checked it. Same result. Gone without trace and with no reply. So my question is “Would you agree that this is entirely unsatisfactory?”
No problem, just submit a ticket at my helpdesk referewncing this post, and we’ll get you the download. Make sure you open a helpdesk account if you haven’t already.
Oh, and Eric, you can contact me via my email if i can be of any further assistance to you on this matter or to make the donation if that is the route that you decide to take.
We cannot let the negative act of the copywriter (if the alligations of this matter are correct) impact us to replying with another negative act or selves, we must right this wrong-doing with a positive act of our own.
God Speed
Wilf
I appreciate the offer.
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Hello Eric,
a recommendation from you is not legal binding and it is up to the person you gave the recommendation to make his/hers own judgement. I assume that the person is an adult and as so he or she is able to make decision on her/his own.
My advice to you is to contact your reader and tell him to go to a lawyer and make a claim against the writer in this way:
1. Write me something I can accept. (this is what your reader must accept, it is the same if you hire somebody to repair your roof and it still drip, it is his right to make it work)
2. Give your reader his money back.
and Eris, look at me - that is the way to go, do not put feelings or anger or whatever in!
Best regards
Otto Jensen
Oh I see, your cookie is your website. Good job Eric! What a great way to get traffic. I also like that you are providing everyone else traffic by allowing them to add thier web sites and the visitor only needs click on the name to go visit that persons website. You are a man ahead of the time’s Keep up the good work and have a great day. JB
Hello Eric,
As to me you are not responsible for this. Your recommendation has been based on positive experience yourself. This is primarily a matter between your reader and this copywriter. If the reader wants his money back he should take steps against this copywriter who didn’t keep his word.
If I had been the victim, I would not even have written you an email, because I consider it my own responsibility. A hard lesson, but also something to beware of next time.
You’re right that any action in this now might have unfavorable consequences. You have handled in honesty, didn’t receive any commission on this sale at all, so you are not bound to compensate your reader for his misfortune.
Regards, Wilma
No that transaction Was Between Him and Some ONE Else I Think You Obligation has both a Business Person and Has a Human Being Now THAT You know the Truth is to never Endorse OR Promote The Copywriter again(and from Following you for almost 2 yrs. i know you won’t).This Is a Topic Because We are in The Business Of Recommending and We Need to Look at the Consequences to others When We Endorse a Bad Product or Service to our customers.We need to not Get So Greedy For Commissions That We Overlook The Needs of our Customers or it could come Back to bite Us(I Wasn’t Insinuating Greed in this Instance) Andrew H.
Well from a legal point of view, by endorsing his services, you have actually accepted responsibility for any wrong doing on his part because by your endorsement you have made yourself his referee, kinda like a surety for someone being granted court bail. But there could be some clause or addendum in the FTC’s rule book might indemnify you of any responsibility provided the actual testimonial on your site of the specific performance the copy writer performed is genuine and provable.
From a professional point of view, you should pay the refund even if you’re not responsible. This would ensure your credibility is not affected. If not, your readers might begin to doubt everything and anything you say from this point on. If you refund the money, the complainant might actually give a testimonial on your site or better yet, his site, recounting the experience and stating how you were kind enough to repay him for his loss. Believe me, this will drive more traffic to your site than you can imagine. Credibility is an invaluable ingredient to a successful business, whether online or in the real world.
It is an honour and a pleasure to share my thoughts with you. Thanks for the oppurtunity.
I think like many of your followers. I hang on every word you write. If you recommend something, we always believe it to be the best on the market. But blind faith is not the way to run a business. There is always a question to ask. It’s up to me to follow any suggestions you make, with another question - Is it right for me? I think that by the tone of the email traffic there was sufficient discourse that would have alarm bells ringing.
I would be demanding my money back from the copywriter.
Keep the recommendations coming!
Regards Mike.
Hi Eric,
I do not think you should be held liable to pay back for someone else’s problem. The party that has lost the money is out and should file a report to the proper authorities and leave you out of it. That being said, if you desire to take the “high road” as someone may have suggested, then you should offer to give him product that you sell as a way of saying you feel bad for what has happened but it was not your fault and you are in no way admitting guilt. If you were to give him a couple of eBook products that you own and not charge him, I think he might settle for that and end up being your best supporter. My whole point is that the cost to you would really be zero and you might make him happy and obviously you would feel better inside as well. Just a side note. I have purchased from you and receive your emails and enjoy them very much and think quite highly of you and your family organization. I feel quite confident that when I order something from you it is going to be a great product. You can’t be held responsible for someone else not following through with their contract. You did not endorse a product and then not deliver it! Also, do not worry about any threat of turning you over to the BBB. They are a for profit organization and have no power at all. As far as I am concerned, the BBB is one of the worst scams out there! If you decide you must refund the money, based upon the response to this open letter, you might ask for donations and because of your wonderful following, you might be surprised how many people would come to the rescue. I very rarely respond to something like this but you must have hit a nerve. Best of Luck!
“Also, do not worry about any threat of turning you over to the BBB. They are a for profit organization and have no power at all. As far as I am concerned, the BBB is one of the worst scams out there!”
Haha, I said something similar in a reply above, although I used a bit nicer words
Not guilty, however, if I was in your shoes I would like to do the right thing by this guy. I don’t think giving him the money is the way to go. Better to help him earn it and more. Could you setup a project with him whereby you promote some sort of JV for him via your list. I’m sure you could come up with something that wouldn’t cost him any money, it would teach him how to go about making some money from an expert plus you ought to be able to work it so you make a few pennies as well.
Phill
Excellent response from Lawton Howell…I agree with all of it.
You recommended based on your experience with the copywriter and have been satisfied with his work that is the reason why you recommend. I will be doing the same thing if I am happy with his work. But why will you refund you did not get any money even a coomission. Maybe you can help by writing to this copywriting about his case this will make him feel you are concern but its not your responsibility to refund him the money.
Hi Eric. You were just as much a victim as the customer in this case as you paid with your integrity, and as far as a refund based on compassion is concerned… that is just bad business.
His deal was not with you and the moment he made the buying decision he took it on himself to conclude the deal on his own terms.
Yes there are unscrupulous people doing business on the internet but the outcome of any business deal is a risk you’re willing to take be it bad or good.
That’s why we have freedom of choice, to do business with whom we want to.
That’s just my opinion but you know who to ask, don’t you?
An opinion is just that - “a view or judgement not necessarily based on fact or knowledge” - however in your case you had in fact used the writer in question.
Information via reference must still be looked into by the individual.
Never pay more than half of the required amount requested, without a quote, and formal document stating “balance on receipt of goods”.
Why pay if you don’t know what you are going to receive, surely you request a portfolio on the person prior to hiring?
No matter who you are, the internet is rife with fraud and guys wishing to make a quick buck.
So in this case I would say Dragutin will have to write this off as a learning curve. Those reading this post take heed.
Take care and thank you for sharing, another reason why to investigate and make sure of the facts, before letting your money slip out of your grip.
I think that you are not liable for any refund, yet on a moral standpoint, perhaps you could pay something towards the lost costs, should you be able to afford this, I appreciate your financial situation is different to that of most of the rest of us, struggling to get by. It becomes a matter of concience.
Hi Eric, wow lot of response here, I have not read all these replies way too many so sorry if i repeat!
best to you x
I have been following you for a short while and find you very genuine (unlike many others) I admire your approach, this is very clever just look at the response. I dont believe you owe the man in qeustion, but you do owe him as one of your humble followers, it would not be right to give the money back, but take his bitterness away, keep him loyal to you and give him some special help???? That would passify me……..i just think he is lucky to beable to afford a copywriter!!!!!!!
I am inclined to agree with Robert Selby although it is a lot of money to refund. However, I am a great believer in you shouldn’t sell something you don’t thoroughly know and believe in. That comes to people. I think this is a wake up call to be very careful who one recommends. It is too easy to look at the money one can earn from affiliate marketing,without looking at the ethics of one’s reputation. In the end, “A good name is better than good oil” and will always work in the longterm in business and in life.
Eric- This is a great thing you’re doing because you will end up with a huge list of mostly supporters I feel, and the phrase “buyer beware”in lights. The reason I believe that is because you’re quite simply innocent and shouldn’t pay a dime. This would set a poor precedence indeed for the future. After all, it’s not as if someone was killed or seriously injured.
A recommendation is what you gave him and simply THAT,not an endorsement.Your recommendation is based on your experience and nobody else’s especially his. You receive no financial gain for your recommendation, therefore there is nothing to attach any claim to.Suggesting you have some sort of liability to be charged for would mean to me that you should have had some input in the whole deal, and you didn’t. If I recommend a builder to you because he did some work for me, and it didn’t turn out good for you,are you going to sue me? Good luck!
After reading the PDF I can see that there was an obvious misunderstanding and that I believe is as far as it goes.I’m not sure what the limit is for small claims where you live but I would look into that first. It’s not your fault that Dragutin didn’t get what he was asking for. At the very outside the worse thing you did was make a poor recommendation. Oops,sorry! “my condolences”, and that’s the end of it!
Len.
You are not your brothers keeper. Nor am I. You recommended someone in good faith based on your own experience. If someone takes action on your recommendation, they should still do their own due diligence before going ahead and handing over the cash.
If this person has a problem with his contractor, that’s between them and has nothing to do with you. Maybe your people skills are better than his.
Anyway, I don’t believe you owe him a cent. What you choose to do in the name of PR is another thing altogether.
Keep up the good work.
Alan
You have my permission to pass my email address to the buyer, Eric. He is welcome to contact me with his needs and I will happily write the letters for him. When, and only when, he is happy with the work, he can pay me. As a writer and editor, that is the way I prefer to do business.
Do you have a website?
Hi! Eric,
I think you are not legally responsible to refund the buyer, you just recommended and did not receive compensation.
The buyer should ask a refund of what he paid from the copywriter who did not deliver well.
If you feel morally obligated, then you can do something to close this issue, it’s up to you.
Because you are a good person many of your readers trust you and you better be careful of who you recommend. Do expect a few people who will not be always satisfied with your offerings no matter how good your intentions are. This is one of the bad cases. The buyer is using you to get what he wants from the copywriter and you are entertaining him.
Hi Eric.
The law is a funny thing (especially when talking about internet transactions) have you spoken to your legal representative? Have to say that is the first thing I would do.
As a more direct answer to your question I would say NO you are not responsible for something that was recommended (and ONLY recommended) in good faith and from which you were deriving no financial gain. If you were deriving financial gain however (and it looks from you writing that you may have been expecting a payment) then that puts a different slant on your potential responsibility to check things out. Apart from that one letter he wrote for you, did you ask anyone else who had dealings with him their opinion of his service and trustworthiness ? You take my point.
On a different note I would like to thank you for the help your email tips bring to me and I am sure your other followers. Thanks again. Terry
“have you spoken to your legal representative?”
I haven’t… and I would assume neither of the other two parties have either. Probably for the same reason: the cost of legal help vs. just settling the matter.
I could pay a good lawyer $500 for an hour of his time to advise me in the matter, but he might just end up telling me to pay the $1344. So I’d more likely just pay it.
But you are right, and if this were a “bigger” problem I’d definitely talk to a lawyer.
OMG - Do not pay him a cent!
What is the world coming to, when people think they have a claim like that. Everyone should take responsibility for their own actions, a recommendation is only that.
Then one should check to see if the service or product is suitable for one’s own needs, if not, don’t buy it.
Even then, if there is something wrong with the product or service, only the one responsible for sorting it out, should be the seller!
Re- in the case of faulty goods. Then the sellers work is to refund the sale take back the goods and sort his own side of it with the supplier / manufacturer.
If it is a service, the one providing it should either refund or reduce the fee as they see fit. If the purchaser is not happy with that solution, they should take it to arbitration through the payment services like pay-pal or credit card service.
If a solution cannot be found this way, the purchaser must take the seller to a small claims court, or other type of appeal system to get a fair decision.
In no-way should the person who recommended the product or service be liable. If a commission is made, there are usually systems in place to ‘claw-back’ the commission (usually from future payments), through the commissions payment systems already in place.
In FTC terms, your particular endorsement or testimonial WAS NOT deceptive! Therefore you are NOT liable. It would make a real farce of the system if a case was upheld against you.
It is important to affiliates, to make sure they use either the vendors own prepared literature and testimonials, or their own honest appraisal, (like Eric did), or literature prepared by the affiliate that is passed for vetting by the vendor!
The vendor is then liable for any misleading claims or products or services not meeting the standards set in the vendors literature!
Fight it!
Andy.
Hi Eric
To me it seems cut and dried.. You gave a free opinion in good faith based on your personal experience. You did not guarantee the other person’s integrity or services–you just gave out the facts– eg a professional copy service had been received. It is the personal responsibility of each of us to make up our own mind based on what we have–in this case someone elses opinion–but the final decision rests with the purchaser. Sadly our society with a claim for anything and everything mentality encourages people to shift responsibility for their decisions on to others.You have no reason to accept liability, in my opinion.Good luck.
I don’t feel you are responsible for a refund in any way, though I understand his anger. It is buyer beware. I’ve been caught a number of times by marketers and have chalked it up to experience. If all affiliates were responsible for overhyped sales copy and underperforming product a great many would be in trouble. There are some who believe you are responsible. Given that you had a good experience and were making a statement on the basis of that experience then I believe you don’t need to pay.
To me this situation is similar to you buying a new car,being very pleased with it and praising and recommending it to your friends.If one of your friends decided to buy the exact same model and it turned out to be a lemon,would you be responsible?Would you be expected to recompense your friend in any way?I think not.
When you made the recommendation it was done in good faith because you were pleased with the service you had obtained.That doesn`t guarantee the next person will get the same satisfactory service.End of story.You should not refund in my humble opinion.
No, I do not think that you are liable. The recommendation was done as a result of your experiences, and was thus in good faith. If one really look at it, a recommendation is always one of a number of factors one need to consider in making a decision. Another, that is perhaps relevant here is risk, or to put it another way, is this affordable. Another factor could be to try and see how a particular decision would lead to growth. The point is, sometimes one makes a bad decision, and have little legal and/or ethical recourse to try and reverse things. This seems to me to be the case here. On the compassion side, perhaps instead of refunding, what about other type of assistance. Personal mentoring for about a month regarding a specific aspect (finding a niche, building a list, etc) of the business to assist this person
Impossible to read all these comments, so I hope my point of view was not already posted here?
In my opinion you can not give good answers to wrong questions or solve completely wrong claims. This whole affaire started out wrong.
To request a refund from you is nuts, as well as for you to refund is nuts. But you are responsible for the loss, no doubt, because of your recommendation.
My claim to you would be to make this crook refund, your problem, how. Now you have a name in this industry, if you “visit” this guy and tell him to give the stolen money back, or you will take care of, that he is out of business on this planet and his best chance is picking bananas for the rest of his life, he will be happy to refund the victim, for sure. Tell him you will come over him like a ton of bricks and that he will regret to be born, if he does not give the money back! You have power and influence, use it! Give this crook a lesson he will never forget!!
Whilst you are under no legal obligation (in my non-legally trained opinion!) you do get a lot of your income from affiliates, associates etc - so I would argue that it would make good BUSINESS sense to make a goodwill payment to this person - but do not take responsibility for the second rate service given by the copywriter. As it happens, I have been a professional copywriter for nearly thirty years - so if anyone out there wants a PROFESSIONAL service, get in touch! martinlevinson@btinternet.com
Hi Eric,
First and foremost, you are not responsible for the actions of the copywriter in question which makes you completely innocent of this incident. Even more so since you did not gain financially through this sales transaction.
Justice lies in the copywriter refunding the full amount not you. However, on the other hand if its any consolation, since you are on good terms with the copywriter, perhaps you can talk him into refunding the money.
But to refund any amount of money from your own pocket will not resolve the real problem which is between the seller and the buyer.
And I can sympathise with the purchaser since Ive been there too but luckily didnt lose as much as $1300+.
Best of luck.
Shakil
Hi Eric - wow - you started something here - a great discussion about the legalities and ethics of internet businesses. I’ve learned a lot just from reading all of these posts.
Related to your situation - are you liable - no - for all the reasons outlined by others. But where does compassion come in? You seem to me to be a heartful guy. As a compassionate gesture you could get his sales copy done for him. He paid $1344 for sales copy (seems a lot to me!) so then he would have what he paid for thanks to your generosity.
and I wouldn’t entertain communicating with Nicholas Cole - you have done the right thing by removing your recommendation of him.
But another thing occurs to me. Dragutin is selling a product (the Bob Proctor one) that I think is all about changing your perspective about how you think about life and the world, and how we are the makers of our own destiny. Yet Dragutin himself is looking to blame someone - anyone - about what has happened so he can get his money back. There is some irony here! Dragutin is not practising the ideas in the product he is trying to promote. Maybe this is what the whole experience is to teach him about.
I recently lost $250,000 - my life savings - because a company I had invested in went bust. It would be easy to blame the guy who owned the company (he did make serious mistakes) but I realised very quickly that this is the third time in my life I have lost money (never as much as this) because I invested money in something with the only intention of making money. Finally I have got the message - I am not supposed to do that! Sure, other people seem to be able to do it - but it’s not a path I should be on (even though I dress it up in what good things I could do with the money I make). So now I go back to my first principles - do good work of great value and you will be well paid for it. I found the gift in the experience and all is well. Dragutin needs to look closely at what the gift in this situation is (and it’s not about getting his money back)
I hope Dragutin will read all these posts and apart from getting some good advice on future contracting over the internet, will reflect on what the messages are on a much deeper level.
Thanks Eric - this was a great way to ask us to think about our values, our standards our practices and our ethics.
“Dragutin is selling a product (the Bob Proctor one) that I think is all about changing your perspective about how you think about life and the world, and how we are the makers of our own destiny.”
Interesting! I didn’t know what he was about.
“I recently lost $250,000 - my life savings - because a company I had invested in went bust. It would be easy to blame the guy who owned the company (he did make serious mistakes) but I realised very quickly that this is the third time in my life I have lost money (never as much as this) because I invested money in something with the only intention of making money. Finally I have got the message - I am not supposed to do that! Sure, other people seem to be able to do it - but it’s not a path I should be on (even though I dress it up in what good things I could do with the money I make). So now I go back to my first principles - do good work of great value and you will be well paid for it.”
Good wisdom!
Eric,I don’t think that u’re liable for this. U just spread the words about something u experienced. Aren’t we all?
No matter how good or bad a recommendation is, we have to do our own homework, including searching for second opinion,etc. Then we Decide what to do with it. Either we Act or not on it, we have to be Responsible for whatever happens next, either a success or a failure.
Dragutin, i believe u can accept it with an open mind.
All the best for both of u guys!
I believe you acted in good faith. The fact that you posted the request for a refund shows that you are trying to do the right thing. You are not responsible for third and fourth party transactions. It was inappropriate to ask you for the refund. I understand that no one wants to lose that amount of money, but to ask a person who had no involvement in the transaction, the recommendation not withstanding, is way over the top!
Hi Eric,
In my opinion, you don’t owe Dragutin anything. Anybody - who has not been living under a rock since the birth of Internet marketing - knows it’s a jungle out there. You (yourself) have to do ALL the necessary research about a certain vendor you’re interested in, BEFORE buying from them.
You made a recommendation. Your recommendation was based on PAST experience. People change, companies change. It is very possible for a vendor that’s had a good reputation in the past, to become corrupt as time goes by. A recommendation is just a TOOL.
Dragutin should’ve done his homework/research before pursuing business with Nicholas Cole. He can’t keep you responsible for a transaction you had no part in. It was a transaction between Dragutin an Nicholas, it had nothing to do with you.
I feel very sorry for Dragutin, and I hope he gets even with this Nicholas jerk. The fact is, people get scammed every single day. And they get scammed for exactly the same reasons he got scammed : they don’t do the necessary research.
Bottom line : This whole dispute should not have been brought to a discussion thread on your website. Because, now your own reputation is also at stake here. Now everybody is watching Eric (instead of Nicholas). Is he going to give in ?? Is he going to refund a transaction he had nothing to do with ??
I suppose we (the readers) are the jury in this court case.. And my decision is, nope, this is not your fault.
Hi Eric, I fundamentally agree with the main drift of the majority of the comments above ie that you should not feel that you need to repay the customer for the third party negligence. I have not yet put your business recommendations into place myself so have no personal views on the quality of your material from an earning point of view. However I have to say I do like the manner in which the material is presented and this informative blog is a very good idea, it certainly has stimulated relevant debate. I hope your customer reads the comments here-in for I am sure you can reach some agreement which is of mutual benefit, to your credibility & his wounded pride.
Hi Eric
What a letter! I understand how you feel about this but stick to the facts: Dragutin entered into a contract with Nicholas Cole, seller-vs-buyer. You did not receive any payment for the service provided so you are excluded from the transaction.
If you do make any sort of compensation to the buyer you accept responsibility by implication!!! I know thats tough but thats how it is. Your one of the good guy’s and your only trying to resolv the situation.
If I was in your situation I would be reminding the buyer of the facts and your position within the transaction. Communication is everything in cival matters, you cannot except responsability for the actions what ever you decide to do in this situation.
Like attracts like in all walks of life, money is not the issue hear, the buyer made his decession not you.
Problems are there to be resolved and I know you will do the right thing.
Thanks for the lessons, I will be in touch whn I launch my site.
Mike Hutchinson (UK)
Hi Eric,
Definately do not refund him! It is the responsibility of the copy writer.
Perhaps you could ask Nicolas to refund him as he was the one who received the payment. Pat
Eric,
The question isn’t are you responsible or culpable the question is why did the FTC create their rules.
In my opinion (and it’s only an opinion) Internet business owners have to realise that they are responsible for whatever decisions they make just as traditional owners are.
If in doubt, or in this case relying on someone else to advise you (recommendation), the answer should have been DUE DILIGENCE.
He is not the first person, nor will he be the last, who dives into a business arrangement that doesn’t work out I’m soory to say.
You Eric will have tomake up your own mind over this request, and it is a request.
Hi Eric,
I feel as it appears most do, that you are not reponsible for the actions of someone you recommended. Further more I think it sets a bad precendent for affilates and anyone else for that matter. I would not want to pay for someones car because I recommended a mechanic that did good work on mine but screwed up thiers. Your compassion for his loss speaks highly of your character, dont let him make you feel guilty.
Hi Eric,
I feel really bad for Dragutin, it would appear he is having severe financial problems at the moment and really did not need this.
I can understand he would be desperate to try to get his money back somehow, but you are not legally or morally responsible for refunding him. Your recommendation was in good faith.
I can see your dilemma, but as you say, if you refunded his money out of compassion it would set a precedent and have repercussions not only you, but all affiliates.
Maybe you could try and help Dragutin get a refund from Nicholas but even that is not your responsibility.
He was a little naive to have paid the whole amount up front and should have applied for a refund before it was too late. It was obvious Nicholas was not fulfilling his side of the deal.
God bless whatever your decision is.
First of all things happen. Even if someone is completely honest and the most honest and ethical businessman for years, that does not mean things will not change at some point. Also, you cannot know all the facts that transpired between these two parties.
Secondly, he still has legal rights including filing a small claims court case against the copyrighter, filing a fraud complaint with the States Attorney General (this various depending upon the state, but many have consumer protection laws and you can recover treble damages) You can go on line to your State Attorney General’s Office of Consumer Protection to find your local laws. Also you should file a formal complaint with the BBB and any other consumer protection groups in your and the copyrighters area.
Now Eric, as to your responsibility, it is always best to temper any endorsement with a caveat that indicates while you recommend ( based on your past experience and give a relative timeline) you still must conduct your own due diligence and investigation as to use of this person for your particular purpose.
A recommendation is not an implicit guarantee. I do not think you have any legal liability to make him whole. If anyone just jumps headlong into a situation and hires someone to do anything based solely on what someone else said, then in this day in age they are being foolish.
In the eithical department, I think you could and should have a discussion with the copywriter and get his side of the story and then make a decision as to whether you feel the situation with him has changed or not if it has publish your withdrawl of his recommendation for all your readers, which will protect you in the future.
Conatct me if you want further advice
Eric,
I don’t think you are liable. You recommended the copywriter after you test him out. His job is worthy you pay for it. You didn’t collect any commission from that. Dragutin shouldn’t paid the copy writter upfront. You may give him a little bit of his lost if you want to.
A year ago, a customer asked me if it’s ok to park her car in the street in front of my restaurant. I told her “I think it’s ok on Saturday. She got a parking ticket around $60. She told me pay for it. I was scare and didn’t know what to do. My husband came out. He told her we are not pay for your ticket. He give her a table a six people around $40 free lunch.
A few years ago. I paid a constructor labors and materials upfront to change my roof. He took my money and took off partial of my roof and left it open. It’s raining. I called him a lot of times. He kept making all kind of excuses and never came back. It’s my fault. I had to swallow whole.
You are not liable, that’s like saying if you recommend a contractor to work on someone’s house then they hire them and it does not work out well, you are liable to pay the contractor. The copywriter worked out well for you, but things change and you are not liable for someone else’s actions.
Maybe you can help him fix whatever he doesn’t like about the copywright he had done or something along those lines. You acted in good faith, these things happen.
Eric,
I feel for you and for Dragutin. However not only has one person been ripped off but your credibility is now on the line.
You have done an amazing job of taking people through all your lessons for free and built up a trust in us all. I certainly feel that you know best so if you recommend something I am more likely to be persuaded to give it a go. You have built up a following of people who look up to you to guide them on the rocky road of Internet marketing and simply by that equation you are morally responsible to be sure of the programmes/services that you recommend. I do understand that you had no problems with Cole but had only used him for one small job.
I have to agree with the advice to help with his freelance work, perhaps find someone else to do it. We can all learn from this, those that have read the story, Dragutin ( I bet he has learnt a lot) and yourself.
The problem is that people like myself (who is yet to make any money on the Internet) are bombarded with programmes claiming to make you thousands of dollars within weeks with ”killer websites and hordes of hungry customers desperate to give you their money”. They are very persuasive. So we turn to people like yourself who we trust to recommend things that do work.
Good luck
Buddy, you are not responsible. Please I know you might want to help this gentleman, but business is business. Some ventures, you loose and in others you gain.
Put it the other way round, if your recommendation had paid off. If Mr. Nicholas had delivered a great salesletter and the salesletter had made our friend a lot of money would our friend pay you for your recommendation? I don’t think so. Please don’t do start this. It is not healthy business practice. Everybody want profits but no losses. Business is Business.
Eric
Of course you are not liable to pay him morally or legally, however.. like some others have mentioned the damage that could cause to your reputation by ignoring him could be …well… damaging.
I have put myself in both your position and dragutins and have a few pointers. he says in his conversations that he has maxed his cards, a situation we are all familiar with, so there may be more actually at stake for him than 1344 bucks, maybe his marriage, his self respect or anything, I think most of us have felt that way at some time so the issue is ‘probably not’ just monetary.
If I put myself in your position I agree 100% that justice is not served by you refunding and I would not suggest that. Someone else suggested a refund of a percentage as a goodwill gesture; again I do not suggest that. What my suggestion would be to make the best of this situation for both of you (as you obviously have compassion for this fellow) is that you let him know that justice is not served by a refund, but as a struggling marketer you could offer him assistance beyond your mailing list in terms of a critique of a proposed product or suggest how he may do it himself and/or perhaps a one time mailing to (one of) your list to promote his launch with the caveat that you do not personally promote it of course. If the product is good he will make sales that will recover his costs, thanks to you.
Hope that makes some kind of sense and I don’t think any of your readers would think it wrong to receive that mailing (although I could be wrong!) I feel this would hand a lifeline to your subscriber and show you as a marketer with integrity.
As a small side note, only this week I had a pitch from a marketer I truly respected and valued as having a high standard of integrity, he doesn’t pitch many things other than his own services and products which I always liked so when I get an email from him I read it and will always at least check it out. He was pitching a product that I went and looked at it was priced at only $67 but while the product and page really didn’t work for me as the promises were crazy, because this person had recommended it I felt it worth the small price, but changed my mind and hit the x to leave. The exit capture went into overdrive with a last ditch attempt to sell at $17 - I bought it and the same with the OTO so I paid $34 in total. I done this only because of the recommendation of this guy as he only ever pitches high end products so I figured he had seen some value in this product. Unfortunately my instinct was right; the product was absolute garbage, 4th rate rubbish. I don’t blame the recommender, I blame myself, however for the sake of less than $20 my ‘marketer with integrity, has lost a follower that has put thousands in his pocket over 3 or 4 years. That’s a lesson I have taken on board and all affiliates would do well to remember and may serve to show why I suggest what I do.
Although I do not believe Dragutin has the same complaint, how you deal with it may affect how others see you – I would not think bad if you said no and left it at that in this case but maybe you could get a lot of credibility by assisting in some way.
Incidentally I am about to launch a new service to stop things like this happening for my member (no cost membership) and if you ever find the time I would appreciate anyone critiquing my proposal, who knows, you may just want to become involved.
Sorry for the really long post
Regards
Matt
You are not liable unless it could be shown that you were aware that the copywriter was unreliable before you recommended him. There may be an issue regarding the genuineness of your recommendation if you were receiving a fee from the copywriter.
But either way the copywriter is primarily liable.
We all know that marketers (including yourself) get up to all sorts of hype to pull customers in and they rely to a great extent on the suggestibility of clients. Having said that, the basic tenet ‘Caveat Emptor’ - Buyer Beware - applies
Hi Eric,
I think that you are absolutely NOT responsible for the consequences of an agreement between Drakutin and the copywriter. Drakutin pretensions are a little bit foolish and if you accept them it could be a bad precedent for all affiliates.
My view is worthless. A legal opinion is the only thing to be considered.
My lay opinion (see above)is that the user’s contract was with the copywriter not with you.Any inability on the user’s part to gain recompense from the copywriter is not your responsibility. However,it is amazing how often an apparently commonsense view is not upheld in law.
Eric
I too subscribe to transparency in all matters, business dealings in particular. In this instance I would, like you, need to determine if my association with the copywriter is on a business basis or on a subjective personal observation / recommendation.
It is plainly obvious in this case that it is the latter and not the former and you are not responsible for financial recompense. If you were liable for financial recompense then every newspaper, magazine etc including electronic media, passing an opiniion or referral, would be liable for every word or sentence printed.
On the other side of the coin you did provide a personal opinion, albeit based upon personal experience and not heresay. Since you have had personal experience with this copywriter it would not be unreasonable to contact the copywriter pointing out that you would no longer be able to endorse his / her services if they are not prepared to treat customers with integrity. Bad publicity is often more powerful than financial recompense.
For future reference it would be prudent to add an endorsement to ALL correspondence, pointing out that it is the responsibilty of individuals to carry out their own due diligence.
It is unfortunate in this instance that a professional copywriter, whom you genuinely believed to be ethical, has proven otherwise and by default you are now tarred with the same brush.
I run my own business, not in the marketing arena I may add, and there is a salutory lesson for all in this. Reputation is EVERYTHING and woe to him / her that gives or allows their sacred word too lightly.
hey Eric,
You are not in the wrong, its not your fault, you are not liable, as you there is no contract between you, the writer and Dragutin. so far from what i have seen you have acted in a good way
To Dragutin - go after the writer, take further action against the writer, loads of methods have been mentioned in posts above
regards
ur are just not liable eric.
ur not liable!!!.
Hi Eric,
For me that person has acted based on your recommendation and that was due to the time when the copywriter was at “awesome” level. But copywriter is just another person who make mistakes and changes due to it’s nature and environment. Due to the fact that the copywriter has “changed” and affected the person who you recommended to, i believe you’d not to be blame.
If you can predict the future, i’m sure you will point us to the right direction, and i shall call you god! But you too are human.
Hi Eric, I feel you are not responsible because you made the recommendation in good faith and cannot be held responsible for another persons actions. The complainant must take the matter up with the copywriter. bad things happen to good people all the time. That is how life is. It is a lot of money and I feel sorry for the complainant, but I am sure he have some rights legally to either get his money back or the products that he paid for. I am sure that you will no longer recommed this copywriters work as he damaged the trust that you had in him. Keep up the good work, Regards Ciska
It seems that there was clearly a lack of communication between Cole and Dragutin. Cole may have done a cut and paste job, but he did deliver a sales letter based on the questionnaire Dragutin filled out. It was not targeted for Dragutin’s product, but I feel that’s his fault, not yours. Additionally, Dragutin should not have paid upfront for the finished product. Finally, where’s Dragutin’s responsibility in all this? He’s the one that made the bad decisions and now wants to blame you for his mistakes. I say you don’t owe anything, either legally or morally!
To be honest I think that both buyer and supplier haven’t done their jobs right here, they should have agreed in writing exactly what was required before payment was made, and how did you get it done for $197 Eric and he handed over $1344, madness or what!? I don’t see exactly what information was supplied by the buyer here on his exact requirements in order to judge how well Nicholas Cole did his job, but I could have written that sales letter myself!, surely that’s not worth $1344!!!!?
Eric
I don’t think you are responsible, but to keep your reputation intact. Why don’t you help this guy out, with the sales letter he has paid for.
This will keep everybody happy and it will only cost you some time.
If I tell the guy down the street that I like lasagna, and he goes and gets some lasagna and doesnt like it should I pay for his meal? NO
There are other ways to solve this problem, mostly acceptance. We have all been “burned”, if you haven’t, wait your time is coming.
I agree that you are not responsible but obviously you feel some sort of moral obligation otherwise you would not even have bothered to post this for comment. Since he was willing to pay $1344 for some copywriting why not consider just writing his copy for him yourself. He gets what he originally wanted, you do not have to shell out any coin, and you will probably feel better about the whole situation. I typically do not endorse anything unless it offers some sort of refund if not satisified or uses some 3rd party arbitrator in cases where the customer is not completely satisfied. Like I said earlier, you are not responsible for what happened so really you have to do not have to pay/do anything for this individual but writing the copy for him may be something to consider.
One has to take responsibility for their own actions. I just went throught PayPal to receive a refund from someone. Why did he wait so long? How could that be your fault?
It has gotten so bad that people will be asking for refunds for the value of FREE items soon if it doesn’t work out for them.
Well, if the work was not done in atimely manner then he should have taken that matter up then. He let it go and now want you to make good. That is not fair. We have to take responsibility for our actions.
If you saw an advert on television for a product and bought that product only to find that it was rubbish, would you claim a refund from the television company? Of course you wouldn`t. The same applies here.
Hi Eric,
I think in this instance you are somewhat obligated to try and help this guy out in some fashion. I haven’t had the time to read all the other comments before mine, but I will as I get time. But I wanted to get my views posted here first and let you know how I look at this situation.
I believe, legally, you are not really obligated, or required, to do anything at all. As you said, you did not receive any type of compensation from the transaction, and if we are all going to be held liable for every single thing we say, things will get a bit crazy I think.
But, I think you need to look at this from something other than a “legal” standpoint. You have put yourself out here as a “mentor”, so to speak, to all of us who are looking to learn the ins and outs of internet marketing.
You are offering this information basically free of charge, but you are also, I’m pretty sure, making money from us via recommendations of products and services at the same time.
I have to think that this guy went out and gave the copywriter that amount of money strictly based on the review that you gave him. By making this recommendation, from the position that you have placed yourself in the IM community, he felt he could safely trust what you said and without your recommendation he probably would not have sent that amount of money to an unknown entity.
I’m sure people will say, oh he should have done more research, due diligence, and blah blah blah, but I think it comes down to the fact that he sent the money because he felt he could trust you and your opinion of this copywriter.
I feel you need to show some good will here and somehow try to help this guy out. I’m not saying you need to just blindly send $1344 into his Paypal account, but I think something needs to be done.
You want people to trust and believe in you and continue to be subscribers and customers. Up to this point you have given them no reason to doubt you and the things you say.
In my opinion, by the huge amount of free information you provide us with on a regular basis, you have certainly proved to everyone that we can trust and believe in the things you say.
I think now you need to show your subscribers and customers and, this guy, that they have placed their trust in the right person.
If you went out to a new restaurant had a really nice meal and then you told your friend about it and said give it a try.
So he then goes but has a bad experience.
Is that your fault.
Simple answer NO.
Its life.
Eric, the thing I think, is that if you did pay compensation to this customer,you will, well not to put it bluntly but you’ll open yourself up to every chancer on the internet. At the time you gave this recomendation i’m sure you knew that it would come back and bite you financialy and hurt your standing on and of line if you were not 100% honest about the subject. In my opinion you are vindicated and the copywriter needs to be exposed as the “not to go to guy” and that is where the unfortunate customer should be going for recompence. I hope you can help me when I start as i’m really green about all of this and don’t want to be falling into the same trap as I don’t have the back up cash to pay out anything like that kjnd of money. You’ve really scared me now.****Ron in the UK.
I am the business manager, so this is not legal advice. I think that if you have or had a compensation agreement with your recommended copywriter, notwithstanding the fact that you did not get paid for this transaction, you are bound to repay a portion of payout from the complainant, who has also subscribed and paid for your services. And, I think that you should proceed against copywriter to recover your money and punitive damages to your reputation, if possible. I know, It stinks.
Hi Eric.
I feel that both sides of the discussion are about “in good faith” and, I too have sympathy for this guy.
If you had known that your referral going to do a runner, then you should not have endorsed him - and I presume that was not the case anyway!
You had no reason to suspect anything, and so endorsed the guy based upon some work he had done for you (as any of us would do).
I personally feel that this refund request is out of order because:
1. You made the recommendation in good faith - regardless of any potential Affiliate Commission you may have made.
2. If there was only one response to his research that should have been a red flag.
3. Why pay so much up front?
I think you probably need to be hard-assed about this. We all can feel sorry for anyone who loses money a a result of a scam & it could happen to us!!! The correct way for this guy to get any compensation is through the courts - not from you. It was NOT your fault!
Just my few cents!
Your contract with Dragutin did not specify you were responsible for any of his losses, in the same way it did not specify you were entitled to any of his profits.
Hi Eric
For all that i have seen, you don’t owe this person, because it was due to the work he did for you that you recommend him, And he can also report him to PayPal, and FTC,but the credit card company should pay him back his money.
This is also a lesson for all of us.
Eric,
I have read the material as requested, and it’s apparent that mistakes in judgment were made.
I am aware that RECOMMENDATIONS can come back to bite you, and this is a classic case. I am confident that you will make the appropriate adjustments for future business dealings.
Buyer’s remorse is not justified if one has not performed his “Due Diligence.” The old parental warning “Get it in writing” comes to mind. It is evident that communications and the reference material supplied could also stand some improvement.
Disputes like this are a part of life on the internet, and sometimes these are hard pills to swallow.
When one exceeds a 50% good faith payment up front, it removes the incentive for some contractors to perform. This appears to be one of those times.
Mr. Dragutin,
I understand why you feel justified in requesting compensation from Eric because of his recommendation, but I have had enough dealings with Eric to believe that the recommendation was given to you in good faith. I also believe Eric to be an honest and fair person with strong moral and business ethics.
I would attach more credence to your claim if I thought this was a case of the internet GURU passing you on to a “Buddy,” with financial implications, but I doubt seriously that this is the case.
I think that if you would step back and analyze the big picture from both perspectives, you would come to the conclusion that Eric is not the problem here. A person should accept responsibility for his own decisions and not play games with his conscious
Eric,
I suggest you not rush to assume responsibility for something that is not your fault. Precedents could be at risk here and much more. I don’t think that throwing money at this problem is a good idea.
Sincerely,
Mick
“When one exceeds a 50% good faith payment up front, it removes the incentive for some contractors to perform.”
Yup.
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Paix et la miséricorde de Alah
Eric for me you are not responsibale
every bady is responsible on his dicision
bay
Eric, You need legal advice from a qualified solicitor, not advice from us. All we can do is give opinions and sometimes those opinions can confuse the situation. Do you have a moral obligation to pay the client any money? I don’t believe that you do. If you recommend McDonalds to someone and they go ahead and buy a burger which subsequently made them ill, it isn’t your fault if Maccas used tainted meat!
Thank you for drawing our attention to such an issue. From now on, a very visible disclaimer about the veracity of the products, or services that I promote, will be on all of my sites.
No Eric you don’t owe him a penny but this sort of thing is bound to arise now and again in the IM world because there are so many murky folk around. If I tell you I ate at a good restaurant and you might care to try it, is it my fault if in meantime the chef leaves and it is now rotten? Answer no, unless maybe if the restaurant are paying me to recommend them. If you want to see this chap right in some way why not give him one of your products from which he can earn back the money he has lost to the copywriter?
Hello, Eric When you recommended the copy writer, he was doing a great job,but people change, it is not your fault that he or she turns a scammer, besides you were not involved in the transction, you are not responsible for someone good turning bad. Thank you, Chabiraj
Hi Eric
You are a true gentleman. I surmise you feel some guilt because you recommended the copywriter. OK But you did it in good faith. It was your honest opinion. It’s like me buying a car from a car dealer and getting a good deal, everything with the car spot on.
So i recommend a friend to go to the same dealer, that is also what the dealer wants. BUSINESS. Unfortunatkly the dealer does not keep up his standard and sells my friend a car, a wrack. I cannot be held responsoble for the dealer’s actions. Although i would feel lousy within myself for recommending him.
We have to be careful who we recommend.
Your heart will lead you.
Pastor Laurence
Your liability will depend on whether or not your business benefits when you make a recommendation. Your business may include making recommendations irrespective of any payment or fee to you. You do this to create goodwill in the hope of attracting others to come and do business with you. Now if a customer should rely on your recommendation, it is like you have done a good job in promoting your own business. The circumstances, however, would indicate that both you and the customer suffered because of the unreliability of the copywriter. Perhaps the best way would be to compromise and agree to a mutually acceptable amount of payment from you.
Eric, you are not responsible for refunding his money. However, an affiliate marketer must be very careful about who and what he or she promotes. As an example, I used to be on the list of someone who sent out an email to his list about such-and-such product. First, the product was not NEW, it had been out for awhile. Second, I had purchased (and been refunded) the product several months before and it was a load of male bovine excrement. But I UNSUBSCRIBED from this guy’s list in a heartbeat because he clearly did not look carefully into what he was promoting as an affiliate, and I have no time for that.
Bottom line: you are not responsible for providing a refund for someone else’s product you are promoting, but imho you *ARE* responsible for checking out the validity and quality of that product if you elect to promote it. I am not on ANY list for long where trash is promoted and that degrades YOUR reputation if you do so. (Not saying you did in this case, just generally speaking).
Here is my opinion for what it is worth. Not saying you should pay this Gentleman/Lady back but I would really investigate people you recommend before recommending them in your program because people are trusting you if they have to spend the extra money to make extra money. I lost money on blueprints/programs I have followed in the past just by following recommendations that were supposely needed in the process of making money with that blueprint or program I purchased and I followed them to a T This has happened so many times to me so now I’m gun shy. Now if it requires any additional money from a third party after I purchase a program that wasn’t made aware to me when purchasing it I will not do it and then I ask for a refund from the person I bought the blueprint from or program. This just happened to me a few weeks ago. No where did it say I needed to come up with $200 in addition for this program to work before I purchased it. This really upset me because I didn’t have the extra funds to make this work. I was led to believe I didn’t need anything else. This was a hidden cost so I requested a refund. In the past I would have come up with the money but after being burned so many times I do not take any chances. So instead of requesting a refund from you for the other third party transaction I would just suffer my lost like I did so many times before but now I would ask for a refund from you for the program I purchased from you. Just to play it safe because I have been burned so many times I do not buy anything that requires money from a third party in order to make more money. Hope this makes sense.
Hey Eric,
I didn’t have time to read all of the above, but I did read some.
As I see it, you have NO ‘legal’ obligation to this person … unless YOU made a guarantee.
As to the right and moral thing to do … since there were three people involved, at most 1/3 or $448. But that is still wrong.
You had a good experience with this copywriter, Cole, and as is our human nature you wanted to help a fellow human being.
Dragutin should have done his own research, therefore eating his share of the pie. And get the rest from Mr Cole.
But $448 is still high for just being the messenger. I would cut that in half to $224.
Just be thankful that it wasn’t a doctor or surgeon that you recommended to him.
I wonder … Is Mr D related to the lady that sued McDonalds for selling her unlabeled ‘hot’ coffee that spilled in her lap while she was adding cream or sugar to it while she was driving? and won!
Eric
I do not think you are liable for any of his losses. However, as a goodwill gesture - do you know of another copywriter who could help him who may do this as a favour to you - or do any other gurus have in-house copywriters who could help you out and salvage your reputation?
Of course those of us who follow you know how decent you are and I know you will make the right decision. Good Luck.
Maybe I need to start asking my friends for money back when they have recommended I buy a dress - and my bum really does look big in it!!
Referrals are one of the most important means by which goods and services are traded. However, a business (or individual) should still do it’s own due diligence on recommendations, before handing over any money. So no, you are not liable, and unfortunately your reader has learned one of those hard lessons that we have all had to chalk up to experience in our business lives. If they continue in businesses they can be assured of more hard knocks like this in the future. It’s just a case of what you learn, how you deal with it and mitigate the impact, and hopefully how you turn it to your own advantage.
I have a similar problem with another of your recommended suppliers - ForexHitter. The software does not work, and they do not reply on their supposed helpline.I would say that as an affiliate you should regularly check the products. I do not feel that you are liable, but if there is a complaint you should be prepared to talk to the suppier about it.
Hi Eric,
I don’t think you are liable for that since you are not even an affiliate that get paid commission.
As you mentioned, if it is a small amount, out of your leniency, you might just pay to the complainer. This is really out of your leniency…
However, I really don’t think you should be doing this even for a small amount. The person who buy stuff in the internet is responsible to that. If he thinks the products/service is not satisfied, he should get the refund back within the stated period (30 days, 45 days or 60 days).
Cheers,
Ming Jong
I am not a lawyer, but common sense I do have. My opinion is that you did not do one thing wrong. The bottom line here is Buyer Beware. It appears to me that this buyer did not research before he bought the product. You are not responsible and your are nuts if you give a refund.
Eric, you are an honest and morally a good businessman…A good lesson for all of us to know who we are dealing with an affiliate…The bottom line is…The affiliate is responsible…When he/she accepted the monies they also accepted the responsibility to deliver the promise…The customer and his credit card company should go after the copywriter not you to complete the unsatisfied promise…Best to You…
Eric, Don’t even think about paying back for some one else’s act of omission or failure to fulfill a promise. I feel the new FTC code is a bit harsh towards endorsers as an endorser may not be privy to all information about a product which could become common knowledge after the product is used. How is an endorser to know this in advance?
As regards the case in point, it looks like the copywriter just didn’t live to his client’s expectations, besides of course, not delivering on time. He should be the one to pay back, not you the endorser.
Hi Eric,
You are not resposible for this guy not doing his own due diligence and not checking paypal or his credit card terms and conditions in case there was a problem.
You do not owe him anything except your sympathy. How are you to know that a person who did something good for you will do something bad towards another? Based on that scenario, advertising should be disallowed all together because advertising is basically a recommendation. A recommendation is just that, a recommendation based on your experience. It is not a contract saying you going to deliver something. It is simply you stating that your experience with that person was good.
I wish nothing but the best for your customer, but it appears that he is just trying to get something out of someone since he himself thinks he should not have to pay for him getting the bad end of a deal.
Hi , I can see that this guy is really miffed and so he should be, but it looks to me that you have acted in good faith and thats ALL one can do! You said it as you saw it at the time, so it was indeed in good faith. In all cases the supplier should be chased for a refund and this guy forgot the cardinal rule and paid up front, instead of either paying a small deposit and the rest on satisfactory conclusion. Or ONLY on a satisfactory letter being supplied. Like someone said, it would be kind and a nice gesture to maybe give him some help of some kind, but with the proviso of without prejudice, as this is not your fault.
Dear Eric,
I feel very sorry for Dragutin and would like to see justice in his case. The ramifications of a refund run much deeper. Can we now sue every celebrity endorsing a soda, vitamin water, or travel website if services are not delivered as promised? I’d hope not. That would be the end of the advertising business. I’d suggest not refunding Dragutin, but helping him bring an end to deceptive businesses that make us all look bad. Blessings, Jean
“Can we now sue every celebrity endorsing a soda, vitamin water, or travel website if services are not delivered as promised?”
In America, yes you can
Certainly not your fault, Eric, and you are under no obligation to provide a refund.Your recommendation was made in good faith and upon your knowledge at the time. On the other hand he made a bad decision in paying in full prior to getting and reviewing the product and then failed to follow PayPal rules within the allotted time.The mistakes were made by him and you should not pay.
I think I should try to add a little more to what I wrote in the above post. I would think that all remedies had been exhausted in the attempt to have the unreliable copywriter to make the customer whole. And that all attempts, including a small court claim, proved unsuccessful. That being said, you seem to have some type of liability independent of the failure of the unreliable copywriter because your recommendation is part of your doing business. But I would suggest that the customer should do his part in trying to obtain restitution first from the unreliable copywriter. So far I would say his attempt to recover has been incomplete. Only after he had completed his part of attempting recovery would I say a compromise with you will be appropriate.
the buyer should claim refund from the copywriter. you are 100% not responsible.
Shallon from uganda.
Hi Eric, Firstly I agree with the majority of people who have responded. You are not responsible for Dragutins loss. Unfortunately it is an expensive lesson to learn, but it was a lot of money to pay upfront. The simple fact that you have asked for outside opinion and you are willing to assist if your subscribers feel that you are at fault, shows that you are a man of good character. I can see that you feel some obligation as you made a recommendation, but your recommentation was made in good faith and based on a positive experience. The good thing that I think we can all learn from this is, yes we can use recommendations as a guide, but we should take responsibility to also do your own research. Best regards
Jim
I dont think you are responsible. I wouldn’t have paid the copywriter in full until I got something for my money. To many scams out there
Eric,
I do not think that you are at fault, this person made a hasty and bad business
decision. Your recommendation yes, their do diligence no. Everything is not always someone else’s fault, but neither do I think that it is a guns fault when someone is shot,or the bartenders fault when someone drinks to much.
Let me say I would like to be the first to purchase a copy of your new (Recommendations Disclaimer) which I’m sure is coming.
Yes Eric I’m afraid I fully agree with Dragutin and you should refund him the full amount of $1344 USD. He acted on your recommendation to choose services of Nicholas Cole as you described him trustworthy and reliable. You were obviously making money out of promoting this low life Cole. It is your duty to investigate people like Cole before promoting their services. Eric I have written to you many times in desperation but not once have you answered any of my emails. All I get from you is auto responses and of course more of your mail shots. Being successful in internet marketing is a closely guarded secret and although you make some nice suggestions you don’t actually give away any secrets. As already stated in my emails to you, I suffer with chronic back pain and find it difficult to sit for many hours. As a result of my back pain I’m currently out of work and finding it difficult to make ends meet. Thanks to people like you I have been a scam victim many times and I haven’t made one sale. I just wanted to sell a few ebooks, I’m not a greedy pig who wants to be the god of the internet. I can’t believe that you didn’t even reply to any of my emails, even if it was only to say that I’m way out of my depth and to forget it. Make sure that you pay this gentleman every penny, it is your duty.
I’ve not ignored any emails from you, I just haven’t seen any. But I do not offer free email consultation anyway. However, I do try to answer questions here on my blog when they are posted in response to relevant lessons.
I’m really sorry about your troubles, but it’s certainly not fair to blame them on “people like me”. I say this with sincerity, I think your victim mentality is holding you back more than any lack of opportunity or help from me.
“although you make some nice suggestions you don’t actually give away any secrets.”
You can believe what you want, but the fact is that I teach the exact methods that I use. You can call them secrets or not.
I like that someone who’s not afraid to let em hear the truth.
I havn’t made a lot of money online! it seems complicated and irksome. It’s Not bloody fare!
I like the Idea of the wealth generating and I can see the route but I’m afraid of the road! Isn’t it wierd? I don’t know it could be one of 3 things I’m afraid of Success, Failure or the work! or all of the above. So I too will sit here and blame you or any one else who makes it as lucky gits who have opportunity kicking their arse with every step.
hmmm wouldn’t it be nice to win for a change……….
Hi Eric,
You are not liable. Your recommendation was honest and you received no compensation for the recommendation. It is up to the buyer to get further background on the business.
Personally your are not responsible for another persons actions but as a standing point I think if this person acted because you recommended the other then that is a grey area. The guy you recommended you said you used once. I would not recommend anyone with just using their service once. I would have to use them 3 to 4 times to actually get a feel for them before I would recommend them.
One way to look at this is does this reader follow you. Follow your tips or anything like this. If he does then the question you would ask is,”would I lose this person as a reader?”. Would I potentially lose revenue from this?, or from this person?
If I were that person my radar would be up on anyone you recommended because one bad experience can mess it all up.
Your not liable for his actions and what he purchases so I wouldn’t give him a refund. But if you think this guy has been a faithful subscriber to you and you want to keep him then refund him the money or partial.
Dear Eric,
The matter is actually very simple. Although you have come across as an honest and decent individual which I sense is not an act (to your credit in this often amoral world of I.M.) you have made public a private business matter between yourself and one who came to you expecting you to treat them with respect and dignity and respond privately.
By exposing this for public review and opinion I’m afraid you have broken a trust barrier my friend.
This is not about small claims court, a rush of refunds or any reader/client repercussions. It really is a question of YOUR integrity.
I firmly believe you should never have made this private matter public. While I believe you are who you portray yourself to be I now have a question as to trust that I didn’t have up till now.
I apologize if this seems harsh. You really seem like a good guy Eric so I hope you don’t mind my straightforwardness.
Regards,
Greg
“you have made public a private business matter between yourself and one who came to you expecting you to treat them with respect and dignity and respond privately.
By exposing this for public review and opinion I’m afraid you have broken a trust barrier my friend.”
He knew I was going to make it public before he provided me with the additional information. He did not have a problem with it.
Otherwise I would have agreed with you.
Was the $1344 for work the copywriter was to complete or for a product? If the former, then the complainer should have a contract and perhaps should learn the lesson of not paying 100% up front. If you were recommending Cole’s work based on what he did for you, then you are not liable for his scam.
We hired a contractor to remodel our house based largely on the recommendation of a friend. Said contractor did work for them on time and on budget. They skipped out halfway through after my husband paid them 100% after hearing a sob story about sick kids. Is our friend liable? While I wish we could collect from them, that’s just silly.
You have to ask yourself honestly if you tested whatever it was you were recommending.
A telling remark is that you were the only ‘recommender” to respond to the guy. So he’ giving it the old college try. Hope you are also learning the lesson.
“Was the $1344 for work the copywriter was to complete or for a product?”
I’m not sure exactly how it would be classified. The end result (Sales letter delivered as HTML document) is a product, but I think it would technically be considered a contracted service.
Hi Eric
I felt that I had to respond on this!
I think it is time that we ALL take responsibility for OUR OWN actions…rather than try and blame someone else.
For example:_ If I use a restaurant recommended by a friend and get a bad meal do I get my money back from my friend??
Or I take my car to a garage highly recommended and they do not do a good job, do I take up this issue with the recommender??
NO NO NO, of couse you could say to the recommender “Hey that restaurant, garage, hairdressers, etc etc was bad” but the issue of complaint has to be taken up directly from the person and the company they dealt with.
We all want great service, products etc and try to research first so not to get caught or scammed but I say Eric, you should not refund on a recommendation, you I know from my trading experiences with you, would refund if you supplied the service and it was bad or I, the customer simply wanted a refund!!
Well thats my pennies worth and I am sure people may or may not disagree but having dealt with Eric he is more than fair and sometimes principle is the issue!
Have a great day all and I am sorry for the person who is out of pocket as we can ALL give stories about bad service etc!!
Mike Kirtley
Hi,
In my opinion you are not responsible. If you recommend someone who wants to sell something, say a car, and the seller does not live up to his duty’s i think you can’t be hold responsible for this, although people will also be angry at you. The seller should have the decency to deliver a good product.
Marja
Eric,
A simple No will do. I’ve read most of the replies pertaining to the legal aspect and the moral. Legally responsible, depends upon what legal counsel is reading it. I give 90% in favor of you not legally having to pay.
But that 10%, you know the ones, The same that can get robbers off for breaking into your home, ramsacking your personal belongings and because they say they broke in only to get out of the cold. Although, its 80 degrees mid May in Florida. In my early days we called lawyers ambulance chasers.
Him paying the copywriter up front, not being satisfied, going beyound the paypal period for redemption, lies totally on him. First thing he should have done was respond to paypal within the allocated time. Had he done just that, Mr. Copywriter may have had his paypal account frozen, being the amount was over $1000. Believe me Mr. Copywriter than would have responded. I did it to someone and whoopie do, Results.
Eric, you being the 3rd party, are under no obligation between him and the copywriter, in my opinion. I base this on an example. If you dont pay a credit card balance and the CC company turns it over to a 3rd party collection, In my opnion you dont have to pay. Why, because you do not have a written agreement with the 3rd party. You do have an agreement with CC company but they can not pass this to a 3rd party collection unless you accept. Unless in fine print its there. They are smarter now than many years ago. A lawyer is not a 3rd party they are the spoke person for the CC company. You got to listen to them.
Eric, moral belongs in business but so does Buyer Beware. I wouldn’t give consideration to the copywriter fees but whatever he paid for the program ( $197) I might consider. That was what you may have received or a portion of. Shall we talk Politically Correct, No not now. Beware of the 10%….
I doubt you are legally liable in any way. So the question is “what is the right thing to do”. I think it comes down to intent. If you intended to make a commission off recommending Mr. Cole (whether the sleezeball ever paid you or not) then I believe the right thing is to give your client the amount of commission you planned to earn on the transaction. The reason you recommended Cole was because of the commission you intended to earn. I realize you got screwed by not receiving your commission, but those are really two different events. In effect, Mr. Cole screwed both you and your client. Hopefully all this attention on Mr. Cole will slam his business for years to come.
Hi Eric,
I’ve only been on your mailing list a short time, so I’m not that familiar with you or how you operate. That said, I think you’ve already gone over the top by making this public. I doubt that there are many others that would have thrown this out to the list and agreed to abide by the consensus. I think one of the telling things is that the “victim” doesn’t have enough money to pay the copywriter which he disclosed after the work was done. One thing I’ve learned in years of business is Don’t Mess With People’s Money! If he couldn’t afford to pay for the sales letter he shouldn’t have hired the writer in the first place. How or why he thinks you’re responsible appears to be a desperate, last hope of finding someone who will refund the money. As far as ethics are concerned, I agree with the others that a recommendation is just that. I had a friend who is an auto mechanic, and the work he did on my cars was first rate. However, after recommending him to a couple close friends who were unhappy, I quit giving his name out. None of the people I dealt with felt that I should be the one to pay their bill!
I feel for him,but why should you give him the refund. RESEARCH,RESEARCH,RESEARCH is a good Motto.
Hi Eric,
Because you did not recieve the $1344 in a transaction between you and Dragutin AND you made the recommendation in good faith, I’d say you are should NOT refund.
Ultimately, the buyer of the service must check out the business themselves and make sure they are legit.
I have been bitten too by two companies that had no bad marks at the BBB.org , yet they completely failed to deliver on a website and
traffic product. There are many stories of these rip offs which tends to make people leary of doing business online. I am about to contact my Attorney General in Massachusetts about what happened to me. Now I’m afraid to hire out because I got burnt.
So these bad deals are happening out there. Would you like to refund me as well??? I lost about $5000!!! ….I chalk it up to being naive and thinking everyone has the same ethical standards that I try to have.
So what should we do as marketers? Make recommendations or not? I think recommendation really help people and I probably will make general recommendations. Giving a list of choices is better. That way it is plain that the buyer must decide who to choose. You can point people in the right direction without really saying one particular choice.
I’m sorry that you have to handle these issues, but I agree with most people here. You are not liable for anything.
Claudia
It seems to me that you would open yourself up to evetyone who doesn’t get their refund. If you refund money to this person, then you will have many people feeling you would do the same for them. I too have been scammed and was not able to get a refund. It is a costly lesson, but let the buyer beware. Good Luck! Karen
Eric,
He should ask his mother for refund, for raising him to be a wind-up, go around and do exactly what everyone else suggest to him idiot robot doll. There is an important lesson here that this guy needs to learn, and that is - before he decides to shell out his hard earned cash; he should do a little legwork and not depend so heavily on one person’s opinion. After reading the e-mail he sent; unlike you I do take offense to his politeness; it comes off as an impudent boldness. This guy don’t need a refund, he needs sympathy for being such a moron.
Dear Eric, Even though you are not legally liable to refund the customer based upon your recommendation. I would try to contact the copywriter and try to get him to settle with the customer. I would also give the customer something you can offer of value. Let the customer know what you have done and willing to do. I think knowing that you tried to do your best in helping me recover my loss would be satisfying to me.
Indeed this is a hard situation but I know you would go out of your way and that itself is some gratification to the situation. My opinion.
I have read the pdf of emails 3 times in chronological order. It seems as though a few emails are missing.
The sales letter was a real mish-mash, and not in the least suited for the vendor’s product.
He received it in plenty of time to demand a refund, and he would have gotten it.
Why did he continue with this copywriter?
Writing sales copy is a service, not an existing product. That is why payment for said is usually termed: Payment for Services Rendered (note that the word ‘rendered’ is in the past tense).
In terms of services, the pre-billing of the full cost of the service TO BE RENDERED is acceptable only with regards to some form of maintenance (yards, lawns, swimming pools, snow removal, etc.).
The copywriter is liable for the full refund but the problem is that Dragutin failed to demand the refund in good time.
This said, it is still possible, if he has been with his credit card company/bank for any period of time, that he could push harder to have them cancel the charge.
His explanation that the reason he did not cancel and demand a refund was due to the copywriter’s procrastination and story-telling does not hold water
Once again, my feeling is that, like the emails, there is a lack of transparency here.
In summation, Dragutin sees the responsibility for his problems as lying with the copywriter or with you…at no point does he appear to accept any responsibility for his decision.
It is clear that you empathize with his situation. This means that you care about him.
If you really do, I believe it is imperative that you refrain from covering any part of his loss. As well, I believe that doing any of the things suggested some of your readers.
You will not be helping him if you do, you will become an enabler, helping him stay in the role of victim.
His product seems to be in good part about the Law of Attraction, and the teachings of Bob Proctor. He also seems to indicate that he believes in the value of his product, therefore the teachings themselves.
From what I know of those teachings, a belief that you are a victim is detrimental to achieving any type of success.
You will help him more by not enabling him than in any other way.
With regard to recommendations of what you should do from this point forward, I would suggest an email showing people/products you no longer recommend, and the reasons for this.
As well, perhaps on your site you could announce that this is something you intend from this point forward to do.
The size of your list alone, and the knowledge that this is what you’ll be doing from now on, will send a clear message to people who sell products/services that clearly do not deliver.
In this way, you would do a far greater service straight across the internet and help many people, by making certain shady characters realize they stand to lose a great deal if they continue doing business in this manner.
“I would suggest an email showing people/products you no longer recommend, and the reasons for this.”
Hmmm… maybe I should start Eric’s Blacklist? Haha, that would instill fear in a few marketers.
Hi Eric,
Important considerations.
Legal issues are always best left to professionals, but the moral and ethical ones are really the crux here.
Sometimes it makes sense to imagine a comparable situation in another area.
For example, if you recommend a movie you honestly liked to a friend, who then sees it and hates it, should you pay them for their movie ticket? I believe most people would say no.
How about a restaurant? You had a perfectly good meal there, but what your friend ordered wasn’t satisfactory to them. Are you morally or ethically on the hook for the cost of their meal?
Of course these aren’t the same things as the copywriting situation, but they illustrate one part of the issue nontheless.
The other part of it has to do with the fact that you apparently weren’t compensated at all for the recommendation. You made the recommendation in good faith based on the information available to you. The fact that it didn’t pan out and that ultimately it cost your reader a chunk of money has everything to do with the copywriter’s ethics, morals and legal choices, and nothing to do with yours.
When you knew better, you changed your recommendation.
Some people say we should be our brother’s keeper, but I disagree. In this case it’s a hard lesson for the client, but one he obviously needed to learn.
We live in a world where caveat emptor is increasinly important. I bet the next time this reader secures copywriting services he will do a LOT more due diligence.
All the best.
Bruce
If you only look at the legal and ethical side of the story, no, you are not liable.
But looking at the greater picture it does not seem to be an option doing nothing about this situation. And I am not talking about paying his money back out of your pocket.
This guy is a customer of yours. He followed your advice. He does not seem to have much experience, otherwise he wouldn’t have payed upfront.
So how about you offering him some help in solving this situation? F.e. giving Dragutin some advice how to deal with this situation, making a call/send an e-mail on his behalf to the copywriter, or whatever is possible from your point of view.
This would give your customer the feeling that somebody really cares, that he is not left alone and that he came to the right person, you.
Beside it might also help solving this problem. With your experience and knowledge of the market it might make a difference for the copywriter if you get involved.
Even if Dragutin is complaining about loosing his money and I really feel for him, this problem is not only a monetary issue. It is also about empathy, him trusting you, him asking for any kind of help he can get in this situation.
And if you would be able to offer him some help, any help, it would change the whole picture. For him, for you and for all IMs.
You are still not liable but you would do something for him only a friend would do. You would show that you are much more than an affiliate who only wants your customers money. It would prove that you’re really there to help. No matter that he has done the mistakes with this deal himself.
And it would be a great example for everybody else. Beside the fact that you might feel much better yourself.
Eric,
You are not legally responsible, but morally yes…you are on the hook. You were being your brothers keeper when you made the recommendation of this guy.
You did the right thing by revoking the recommendation, though.
What is the right thing to do here?
I can’t answer that for you, but I will tell you what I would do.
If I had the skills, I would do his sales page for him personally.
What does this do for you? Sure, it takes some time out of your day to craft something up that will likely be far superior to this dead-beat letter.
And…
It let’s yet another person know that you stand by your readers and the recommendations you give.
It is akin to the 90 day money back guarantee thing, but this time it is your word as a man that is at stake, not some product…
Those are my thoughts anyway…mileage may vary with others.
Eric,
I’m not a lawyer. I’m a copywriter and have been for 20+ years. But I know the law — specifically, tort law — enough to comment, here. (But this is not legal advice, of course.)
Legally, you are not liable. Because your endorsement is based on personal experience. It is not an endorsement from someone else you posted or published, in order for you to help sell for you and get an affiliate commission if they chose to go with that copywriter.
Secondly, you do not have a legally binding agreement between this person and yourself. Therefore, it is up to the courts to determine liability. If this person is attempting to get a refund when you have no direct compensation, this is akin to, or may be construed as, extortion. If they tried to sue you, you could easily countersue for this reason.
Liability for endorsers is based on material connections — getting paid is only one of them. If the copywriter said, “I’ll do free work for you if you refer clients to me,” or “I’ll send clients your way if you send some to mine,” that’s a martial connection.
But liability to an affiliate in a material connection is still limited. It does not apply when the endorsement was done in provable good faith. The law is meant to protect consumers who buy from affiliates who willingly scam consumers or acted in bad faith in order to get commissions. Again, it refers to you using illegal/unethical tactics in order to get compensation (see point #1, above).
If you used fake endorsements in order to make a sale, or if you lied, or if you were negligent, then you are liable. But this is not the case, here because you appear to not have received any compensation or used false information to make “the sale.”
Bottom line, for this person to have any grounds to stand on, they must prove, in a court of law, that your actions were part of an intentional or negligent tortious conduct.
Thanks for weighing in Michel!
I would take people at there word that the person or company they support is a good and stable company. I do understand things that company does are not in your control. I think in this case I understand and I would not hold you libable in this case. Of course I did not see or read the work this person did. IN this case make it hard to decide. The work that was completed could be good for me, but your reader does not like it. everybody is different. I say not libable!
Eric,
I’m the proud leader of a company that was founded by my great grandfather in 1924.
Since then the world has changed alot. Wars, crises… My experience is this. Once in
a while “cases” like this show up. When they do, they make your heart beat a bit faster
than usual. Most honest people get frustrated. In this case you don’t owe him one red cent,
but that said: This is a good case for you and for all of us. This case could be turned into
something great. I would personally have taken a phonecall to the guy that has “lost” his money. During that conversation you both will grow. I do believe that call will sort things out. Keep an open mind, an bring the result back to your blog for us to learn.
What ever you do, I’d like to say this: Eric I do really appreciate all the good content that
post, and I do respect you for sharing this case openly with us.
Best regards,
arthur taubo
Eric,
I think you`re pretty safe on this one,eventhough nicholas did an acceptable for you does not mean it will work out with the next customer.
And in all honesty, I think this blog will most certainly affect his doing business with the public in the future.
Deb
Hi Eric, I’m very sorry to hear about this, both parties are in my opinion partly responsible (and it’s only my opinion)as I don’t think points of law really come into it, this would be a point of joint moral liability, firstly the readers fault for not checking out the social proof before hiring a copywriter, and I’m sure just about everyone on this page has been scammed on the internet, there are fare more scammers than genuine people out there, if I were you I would feel a moral obligation, a duty of care if you like to try to help, if you could not contact the copywriter, perhaps you have similar copywriting to his needs that you could give him so he could adapt it to his needs, perhaps you can help him in others ways with his venture, even if it is just help and not just hard cash, I’m sure that your reader would feel at least partially compensated if you gave him a little of your time and personally helped him out, it doesn’t have to cost you much if anything, but it would create viral brownie points for you Eric, you become the hero in the situation, but I do agree that recommendation from one person should not be held up as liability from another, but if you are seen to try to help, you will come out whiter than white. hope this helps - John Robbins
Eric: I guess it’s like a broken record of how many people get ripped off DAILY. In your case YOU are not at fault. You wrote your recommendation on YOUR experience. Maybe all IM should put a statement to the effect that, ” Please check all companies out with BBB before investing in any company. All situations may very.” Then you cover your self. I wish I had of done that before I lost $10,000.00 + in a company that has a “F” rating. I don’t do IM anymore. I can’t afford it. This Nick sounds like someone who should have been checked out by BBB. Who ever has had a problem with him, Please report him to BBB. Lets try and stop these people who take others money knowing they are going to rip off the poor sole that is just trying to make a living the honest way. ” buyer beware”
Hi Eric,
I really feel for Dragutin. It’s very frustrating to lose money when a company does not deliver (even at times a ‘reputable’ company). And this does not just happen in the internet world, so I hope this incident does not deter Dragutin from pursuing his business.
In future, I suggest he submit smaller projects to a new vendor first, until they have an established working relationship. And agreeing to a delivery timeline before paying.
I cannot comment on the legal aspect as I am not a lawyer. I do not believe you should provide a refund to this gentleman. If you do provide him with a refund, I think you’re setting a dangerous precedent for yourself, and for other marketers. If everyone provided a refund for something-gone-bad, no one would make recommendations (compensated or not), and no one would sell. Imagine a car salesman being asked to pay for the cost of a customer’s car if the customer is not satisfied with the car three months later. No one would sell cars. Or if your neighbor recommended a certain model to you because they were happy with it, and you got a ‘lemon’ and you requested your neighbor to pay for your car’s purchase price?
If there is any way you can help Dragutin with getting his money back from this copywriter, I think you should try, and maybe going public will help achieve that.
Certainly, by not delivering an acceptable service and not refunding Dragutin’s money, this copywriter is destroying his credibility and his business.
Eric,
You are not legally responsible, but perhaps ethically and morally indebted to this guy, since you endorsed the service. Maybe you should offer a partial refund?
Hi Eric,
I don’t believe you are responsible for a refund from this unsatisfied customer.
From all the materiel I’ve read, it seems that the customer did not investigate his vendor thoroughly until too late.
The internet is filled with people claiming to be the answer to making money so in the future, for you: investigate your sources BEFORE recommending and for your customer a recommendation is fine so long as you research BEFORE spending money.
Eric -
I see no liability on your part. It’s up to each of us to check-out vendors and take responsibility for what we purchase. It was the copywriter who did not deliver, not you. Posting this item and asking for feedback is above and beyond the call of duty, and a helpful reminder to all of us in your large and loyal community to do our own due diligence before we take the leap and purchase anything. Thanks for your open, honest and valued communication.
Hi Eric
I’ve got to be honest, I totally agree with other people’s sentiments that you are one of the best of the Internet Marketers around! You are very much in the same league as my other favourite, Yaro Starak, who is also one of the most honest and upright operators in this field. Indeed, I recently read a post on his blog where he wrestled with a moral issue himself: outsourcing to places like the Phillipines but paying people only $2 an hour!
I think you are certainly not culpable here. As the others have said, you made the recommendation in good faith, you received no renumeration from the affiliate sale and have since withdrawn your recommendation once a problem became apparent.
I have found your online lessons and guidance to be invaluable and fascinating. You obviously put a lot of personal time and effort into producing them and distribute them for free, when you could well charge for them at the same time! This speaks volumes in itself.
In terms of the customer, yes it is unfortunate but the old saying ‘Caveat Emptor’ wholly applies here. You could, as others have suggested, offer him some compensatory copy-writing material as an act of good faith, but to part with money may well open the flood gates for you. It think this customer needs to learn a valuable lesson when using freelancers. To coin a phrase made by one of my favourite writing and motivational coaches: ‘inspect don’t expect!’
very best regards
As you can see from all the replies here you would be vindicated in refusing to pay any compensations to this person. You wree acting with prior knowledge and satisfaction at his work done for you, but obviously as you have found the copywriter has broken agreements and therefore you were right to say that you no longer endorse his business. I can see no recompense for his actions of paying the amount before he recieved the work… end of!
Eric: you have not contravened any FTC ruling.
You checked the copywriter out first.
It appears the facts are stacked against this
person in his misleading advertising. Any court
would find you not liable for this,rather the
advertiser. Doug
No, you’re not liable, nor should you do it.
It does show your character and integrity Eric for even considering it. One advice that I thought was the best is that you offer the guy the equivalent value (or more!) in services that you offer.
If the guy is sincere in his business to succeed, he’ll take you up on it. If he’s just a whiner, complainer, and a blamer, he won’t and you’ll know what you have.
Good luck and please keep is in the loop!
Eric, if you had good copy write from the copywriter, but this other person said what he got back was not
anything he could use, then you should ask him to send you a copy of his copy write from the copywriter,
with information about what it was for, so you can judge for yourself. Then you should contact the copywriter
yourself to get his story about it, and why he did what he did in writing the copy, this way you would know
the whole story… But as you said the copy write you ordered worked for what you needed, so you did everything in good faith, and you are not at fault here as I see it, and should not have to pay for something that even you did not get a commission for, and ask why you did not get the commission… Was The Fee Paid to the copywriter for his services? You need to get information from each of them…
James
I don’t feel that you should bear responsibility for someone else’s actions even though you recommended the copywriter. This should be between the copywriter and the person with the complaint. I see it like this, if I recommend my mechanic and he doesn’t repair your car satisfactorily would you hold me responsible?
Hi Eric,
I dont think BBB endorsements are any of the more conventional offline benchmarks are relevant here. IM and affiliate marketing operate in a much faster and looser environment.
There is always an element of risk in dealing with a one man show. Even if the person or entity was of sterling character and 100% reliable up to now, what happens if he is in an accident or dies -
5 minutes after you PayPal him the money?
Are you going to go after his heirs?
I dont think you are at all liable for the refund (even though Im sure it wouldnt hurt you financially).
But, if I were you I would consider offering him some sort of booby prize.
One of your courses, some coaching, maybe a back-link or two from a high PR site you may own?
It would reinforce your nice guy image, and prevent the possibility of you having to waste a lot of time and money fighting a rear-guard action of defending your reputation -
for who knows how long?
If you did this, you might want to get him to sign off on no future liability - hold harmless type of statement.
Your credibility would soar, and the cost would be minimal to you.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Oolie
Unfortunately doing business has some problems. It really comes down to how your actions are viewed by consumers and colleagues.
Eric, you are a great writer yourself. Offer your services for the amount in question. Provide this person with some mentoring, after all, he really is not wanting a refund but some expert help.
I think there are MANY good comments above. I do not think you did anything wrong, and you definitely are not liable or obligated to pay the gentleman for his loss.
If, under other circumastances, the AFFILIATE COMMISSION HAD BEEN PAID, the ethical choice would have been to refund it. Since this has not happened, then “Buyer Beware”.
Hi Eric. I feel his pain and yours too. No-one wins here no matter what. Perhaps if you feel so inclined to preserve best customer relations you might offer D one of your own products. Do not give any refund as you could be setting the wrong precedence. Keep up the great work you do.
Well Eric i feel that you do not owe him anything reason being its not your fault the copy writter did do his job properly so in this case he needs to get his money from the copy writer and 2 why would anyone pay for a job before its done .VERY DUMB ON HIS PART!!!
Eric:
While you are not responsible for the failure of the copywriter to produce as contracted, I feel you are morally obligated to make sure this never happens again.
I suggest you use your experience and connections to put this copywriter out of business. Many of us respect you as an honest person.
I believe you have a responsibility to correct the matter. I think the amount represented as lost by the user of your recommendation is high compared to what you paid for your use of the copywriter. I would request a copy of the written piece and evaluate for yourself. If the product is inferior, request that the copywriter redo the piece. Your responsibility is to investigate and see if the person was truly let down by your recommendation. If he was and the copywriter cannot (or will not) correct the matter,Pay the person what he was billed and what he paid for the inferior service. Your future business depends on your word and it is the right thing to do.
Good day sir: There is definately a problem here. The thing in affiliate marketing is all you(I) are doing is giving another parson a place, address to look at and they are supposed to do there own research as to if this is a place or business I want to be envolved with. I see that the only responsiblty you have is that you gave this person a place to look for what he wanted. You advised him to look not to buy. In the few lessons I have obsvered from you and others is to look but CHECK THEM OUT first before you step in with both feet. I have made some of these fool mistakes and learned through foolish greed that this was the one that would make me HA! HA! rich.!!! YEA! NUTS! No such luck.? This guy must do like one of the people said write it off as a business expense,(learning experience). Pick up the marbles and move on to the next experience and hope not to make the same one again.. NO! unfortunatly for the guy you do not owe him one thin dime. He must admit to his mistake and not blame you or any one else for his mistakes. I believe he is just fishing to see what would happen. So I wish you good luck in your decision. Buiness wise this is a double edge sword. Again good luck. ~~Glen
Although you are not legally or maybe even technically responsible, I think the right thing to do is to offer some assistance. In lieu of a refund you could help him by offering a service to help his project get up and running or find him another copywriter at your own expense. Give him some of your products etc. That way you are living up to your reputation but nor really claiming responsibility for someone else’s actions.
It would be an incredibly nice thing for you to refund the money but no you are not liable. There is no telling what happened to the copywriter that made him become unreliable but since you didn’t have anything to do with that, it is not your fault.
The best thing to do is not pay anything until the product is ready. I have been ripped off as well from the opposite point of view. I am an artist and did a portrait for a customer. He paid the deposit quickly and well and in good faith I sent him the painting and he never finished paying for it. Basically as sad as it seems, there is no way to know when people are going to get over. We just have to take as many precautions as possible to try not to get taken advantage of by other people.
Hello…I am not impressed with people who go on recommendations with no due diligence done on their part. Eric …people you sell to …be responsible to them…but not third party decisions someone else makes.
I believe that everyone needs to Be Responsible for their own actions …not to mention…DO NOT give someone that much money until you see the product or at least 50% of the finished job!!!!
Come on people this is not a babysitting service in this business…..you are supposed to check this out no matter what someone else says……quit passing the buck!!!!
Eric-
Kudos to you for even considering this situation and posting it on your blog. It is an interesting case we can all learn from.
I agree with the majority that you absolutely do not have any responsibility to the buyer.
HOWEVER, I personally think you should do something since it is the “right” thing to do, and it would be a huge self-marketing success (especially with your skills). The transparency of your actions and outcome for all your blog readers to see will have fantastic results.
You are an awesome copywriter, so you could work out an arrangement to provide him what he was attempting to purchase from the scammer. That simple action could pay huge dividends later. I would be hesitant to offer a straight refund.
I personally don’t think it would open the flood gates of similar requests, but subsequent disclaimers could prevent that.
You do not owe this guy crap. If you tell me a Volkswagen Tiguan is a great SUV and I go out and buy one. I can not come to you and make you give me the freaking money I put down on it back, when it breaks down. Let’s face it, everyone has been burned in this biz at some point. It is the nature of the beast in this industry. I know where your heart is and you have never been a fly by night scam artist. I am sure I, and your readers who read this, will all agree. You have provided $100’s of thousands of valuable info to us and if anything we freaking owe you money. I would tell this dude that you are sorry. You provided something that you thought at the time was for his or her best interest. But in this case, you are not refunding their money because you can not be responsible for someone else’s negligence. You always try to help people. Whether it is mission trips, or giving peeps knowledge to make money online. I have been burned for way more than that. Try losing in the $250k+ range. Now that is something to bitch about
In my opinion you owe nothing to the unfortunate user of the copy writer. You made the recommendation in good faith, having had a past good experience with him. It is puzzling that the copy writer seems to have turned bad, apparently also for other customers, not just this one. You dont owe him anything, but you might refund some part of the $1344 the copywriter was paid, as a goodwill gesture. You certainly do not want to refund the entire sum as this would discourage the customer from getting satisfaction from the copywriter, either in the form of acceptable copy, or a refund. in the interest of future business one would think that had the copywriter any marbles he would be anxious to satisfy the client, one way or another, in the interest of future business and to avoid adverse publicity.
Ithink you are not responsible at all for things that other people did.
Don’t feel yourself guilty!
You are a really kind, careful and helpful person. Keep your good habits for a long time!
Maria
I think that the rule of: CAVEAT EMPTOR applies here..
First of all (and I have been guilty of it before) paying anybody in full up front is very poor business judgment.
Maybe a payment of 1/3, see some progress, then 1/3 a little more and then the balance on completion..
As far as your liability — I certainly don’t see any culpability on your part.
You are only recommending based on your experience.
In the US you wouldnt be responsible since you received no compensation for referring business to this individual. In the UK it might be different as their government is more a socialist regime.
Also looking at the emails I believe the copywriter feels he provided the copy as agreed and now the person changed what he wanted and wants him to redo the work without compensation. Builders call that a change order and in the US again the client is responsible for the costs. Here again you are not responsible for the guys miscommunications with the copywriter.
Hi Eric,
No I do not think that you are responsible for the refund. Because you did not guaranty that this copywriter would complete the assignment. Also it is not your services that the person paid for.
Just like you said if you pay him then a lot of people will try the same thing because they maybe frustrated with other recommendations of yours.
You definitely do not have to refund this guy for his own stupidity, anyways who pays someone for undone work first.
Sorry to sound crude, but if someone wrote copy for me they would get paid a deposit and the rest on completion, after my final approval of copy.
I am so sick of society’s new blame game. Take responsibility for your own actions and stop pointing fingers at everyone else. It’s called personal responsibility people. Suck it up and move on. Things happen it’s called life. Stop trying to blame others for your bad choices.
As a struggling internet marketer, I read and and listen to all the “experts” advice and recomendations. Sometimes I get burned, sometimes I get lucky. I think in this case you are not liable for someone else’s work ethic. You recommended this copywriter as someone who did a great job for you. However, as someone who gives recommendations and advice on a regulare basis (making your living online) I would think some kind of refund should be made either monetary or product wise.
Just a few words
Due Diligence!!!
Don’t be lazy!!
Eric, you’re not responsible. It would be the same as if you recommened a plumber, kitchen remodeler, supermarket, mechanic, etc., etc., on down the line to a neighbor or friend and they had a bad experience. Would they come back and ask/sue you for the money lost or bad experience they had because you recommended that business or service?. I think not.
I also feel for your reader and the position he’s in and my recomendation/comment to him is “Take the copywriter to Small Claims Court and sue him for Non Conformance” and leave you alone.
I recommend going back and watching lessons #1 through #17. As I’ve taught, internet business is NOT for everyone. You may need to re-evaluate whether this is really for you. And if it is, you will be reminded of what ingredients are required for success in this business.
I would like to know if there are more ET readers who have been ripped off by him…
Same story - I only hired him at your recommendation. Typically I write my copy myself. He sent me some completely unrelated things at first, and then the communication just died. I paid him $1800+ for a bunch of things together. Again, typically I would have tested him out with a smaller project first, but that’s the danger of acting on trusted recommendations!
Unfortunately as IMers with large lists, we end up being in a position where every recommendation of ours, even one in passing, can become a big issue. After the episode for Cage, I’ve actually been sending out a lot more product and scam warnings…it’s a horrible feeling to act on a trusted recommendation and find yourself in a place where you begin considering yourself stupid/naive…
Even so - I do not believe in this case that you could be held liable. However, I have in the past out of compassion ended up compensating and looking back that was simply not a good solution! Not only do you open yourself up to potential scammers who seek to take advantage of you, but also end up enabling the person involved to continue taking risks without evaluating everything themselves first!
I’m sorry to hear it. Did he deliver any finished work to you though?
Nothing particularly usable…it was all generic stuff that I couldn’t use. I had him write a few autoresponder messages (actually a lot of them) and a sales letter.
The way they were written though read more like a PLR collection than solid content.
Just realized I wasn’t super-clear :
He sent me some work - which was not up to par - I asked him to edit some things and send them back, which never happened - so no, I didn’t in effect receive anything.
A benchmark is not a bad idea
Not sure I want to abandon many years of product reviews that I’ve already done though… hmmm..
I feel bad for the person who lost the money from someone who apparently failed to provide the service as promised. You made a recommendation in good faith based on your experience with the service provider; you did not guarantee that someone else’s experience would be the same. The reader can’t possibly hold you liable for a good faith recommendation based on your personal experience; every transaction and business relationship has inherent risks
Here in the UK we have an expression that is regularly applied to an assortment of circumstances.
The expression is “In The Good Old Days”
Not sure if that expression is valid across the pond in the USA but what it means is this: At some mythical time in the past, usually at about the time of your own (or your parents) childhood, “When Roses grew around every doorway; the sun shined every day; geese laid golden eggs and everything was wonderful”
This was a time, when every body always told the truth; all adverts were gospels and everyone was your best friend or trustworthy uncle. Unpleasant things sometimes happened but when they did, it was “an accident”
During the good old days, the watchword of any business transaction was, “let the buyer beware”
Now, instead of “the good old days,” we live in a “Nanny State.” This is the time where Nanny knows best.
When something unpleasant occurs, it cannot be an accident, it must be someone’s fault.
The buyer no longer has to beware, because consumer law protects us at every transaction we ever make. When something goes wrong, we are entitled to compensation.
If we can’t get that compensation from the guy who took our money, then we ought to get it from the newspaper that ran the advert or we have to get it from the government; somebody, anyone?
Eric, I love your turn of phrase:
Although I am someone who believes in absolute truth and a clear distinction between right and wrong… the realm of ethics can still be grey at times.
I’ve tried to put myself in the customer’s shoes.
I’ve been a victim of scams in the past, so I’m familiar with what he is feeling. It’s one of the worst feelings that the pallet of human emotions can paint. Anger, frustration, regret, self-loathing… all rolled into one. The only way out of it is to go through the grief cycle, and reach a point of acceptance.
You summed it up perfectly
The only way out of it is to go through the grief cycle, and reach a point of acceptance.
Eric, you are not liable legally, ethically or morally.
This Guy should learn something from this encounter and emerge all the stronger for the experience.
Dear Eric,
I am sympathy with you on what you are facing now. Just be wise to this case. Sometimes ordinary people before investing/buying/spending/hiring something from someone
especially if it is costly, they are looking for smart and experienced person who know with to get his opinion or recommendation before they made decision. In this case the people assumed that you are the right and trusted person that people believe the man you recommended is what they expected. However, they did not get it. Of course, they are
really disappointed with both of you and the man you recommended. So, it is understandable if they claimed with him. However, because he could not give refund from them then they shoot you. Although you have rights to refuse the responsibility of causing their loss. But morally, you are also responsible for it directly or indirectly. Well, doing
business always meet risks. It can be you or somebody else, depends on the judgment. So, it is up to you to follow it up or ignore it, I just suggest to make win win solution to
this matter to keep your name and reputation.
Best regards,
Edy
One thing you could have done is not to publicize this in the first place. You could have tried to contact the copywriter and ask him to explain himself (since you were promoting him I think this gives you a little leverage). Next, you could compromise with your client on a refund (doing this quietly would prevent any runaway refund attempts from other clients). The reason I suggest the refund route is because: In this day of rampant information and considering your knowledge and talents, I am having a hard time
accepting the fact that the copywriter wrote for you (did he know who you were?) and you thought it was good and then you stopped… no real research on this guy? I’m being nice here when I say to you: Aren’t you the guy who ‘bailed’ on the hype scene about a year ago and decided to play it close to home with your Lessons, Eric? Playing it safe, in my opinion, would be to teach about but not to endorse a particular copywriter…
Yes, I agree, buyer beware.
Small Claims Court exists for this guy and his copywriter.
If you have followed the FTC requirements (I would like to hear more about that from you) then you should have no legal concerns.
But, the rest is between you and YOU…
Peace
btw, Eric, keep those lessons coming!
It’s not your fault because :
1) You made a recommendation based on your positive experience with that copywriter.
2) You did not receive commission from that copywriter so why should you be liable for the refund request?
When engaging a freelancer, never pay them in full until he delivers the final product so the buyer should have made some sort of agreement with the copywriter regarding the payment for works-in-progress. So it’s the buyer fault if he chose to pay upfront. As always if a freelancer refuse a works-in-progress payment scheme then don’t engage him.
This is a complicated issue as you mentioned.
I think it addresses one reason I have not so far pursued affiliate marketing although I do have an interest in it. I have though as a teacher, run into similar problems, where I have recommended a product that was either not what I thought or did not work for someone else. So much money is not usually involved but I still felt terrible if I caused someone to buy something they can’t use. I really think an affiliate marketer has the moral responsibility to have enough history with a product that they can make a really honest recommendation. I don’t think anyone can recommend a product if they haven’t used it for years or in this case a person that you were recommending. However people change and so do products and so something that you felt was worthy of your recommendation might no longer be so. I would recommend always give a caution on your recommendation like I used this or this person and was happy with it or their work but I can’t guarantee that you will be. Why not look into it and make your own decision. As far as this person goes this could open up a can of worms if others hear that you have reimbursed someone. People fail for many reasons and they would love to get some of their money back at your expense. This could lead to many suits. I would probably want to do so too but if you do this for one there will be many more calling.
Linda Julian
It rarely hurts to ask, and like I said… I would have done the same.
Eric,
Liability is one thing, but your reputation and character follows you where ever you go.While I don’t think you’re liable for this, it seems re-imbursing him is the right thing to do.
I’ve been in IM now for only two years and have already been screwed over by several of the gurus. I’ll never have anything to do with them again and if anybody ever asks me, I’ll trash them. So the dollar amount involved isn’t worth creating enemies in the business–not that you’re wrong in not feeling obligated to pay him. It’s just not worth it, and you’ll be able to hold your head high!
Regards,
Tom O’Boyle
What would Amazon.com do?
I bought a $1200 Plasma TV through Amazon recently. It came on time and the whole process went very smoothly. I am also absolutely satisfied with the quality of the product.
Maybe, just maybe, I will set up an affiliate link for that product and market it to my list so they can watch the DVR recording of the final episode of LOST in the vivid color that I now enjoy.
However, I wonder what would happen if someone, from my list, got a defective TV from one of the other vendors on their website and that vendor was not cooperating with them. No refund, no exchange.
In looking at their Limited Liability statement on their website, I am sure that I nor Amazon would have to worry about being held accountable.
But, what would they actually do? We all know that their customer service is top notch.
Maybe, just maybe, they will offer the customer a discount on their TV (same one or of equal value). Full refund?….I highly doubt it.
You, Eric, are surely not liable. (except up to that $100 that you state in your liability statement…I guess a lawyer told you to put that in…but, i don’t know why you would have to offer even that)
However, now that you brought up a good question, why not set an excellent example for the internet community. Show us that IM businesses are real businesses…ones with customer service departments (at least in mindset).
You may not aspire to become the next Amazon. However, there might be something you can do for the guy. Such as, find him another copywriter that will follow through and negotiate a discount for what might have been your referral fee. Or, since you happen to be a very good copywriter (in my opinion), do it for him.
Just a thought, not a sermon.
I know those are dangerous grounds. Others might abuse it. However, the PR and reputation benefit might far out way the risk.
Then again….Maybe Amazon would not do a single thing about it, since they technically don’t have to.
If I recommended a service without having used the service and received satisfactory results, I might feel partially owing although in no way obligated to satisfy any complaint. It would be the responsibility of the person who failed to provide the service who is liable. The complaintant should have not paid for any service prior to receiving the service in question. I make it a point receive before I pay. I like to see what I’m paying for, then the decision is mine. If I told you to jump off a bridge… covers the situation. I’m not responsible if your stupid enough to jump without weighing the consequence. Although unfortunate you are involved… BUYER BEWARE
We all make mistakes. Chaulk it up to experience.
Legally I don’t think you can be held responsible for a non-compensated recommendation, especially when you had a previous good transaction with the person you recommended. Morally I think the complainer is way in the wrong by coming back at you for trying to help with free information. He is obviously a newbie and made two mistakes he should try to learn from: 1) No escrow account, cash upfront ugh!. The copywriter is also wrong for not having an escrow setup. 2) Newbie should have supplied the copywriter with a good descriptive layout out for his marketing strategy and products at the very first. Then he may have had a better experience. I’m newbie myself (age 74 and supposed to be retired) and I’ve personally received tons of good free info from you and others. But, I’ve also had my share of ripoffs, and this time I’m determined to get it right on the first shot. I’ve been the last 8 months learning everything I possibly can. My plan is just about complete and I intend to submit to several people for comment before going live. In your place right now I wouldn’t want to set any kind of a “standard” that had the potential to make things even more difficult for everyone doing business on the web or offline. Don’t pay this guy. If you still want to make him feel good: first give him some advice on how to get copyright done, then “maybe” give him something he can possibly use, but not money. Hope this helps. Russ
Eric,
I really appreciate your transparency and posting this on your site. It goes a long way, especially in todays IM world. In this case, you do not owe him a refund. And with you posting this I think it will do more for your reputation than not paying him would hurt it. Keep up the great work!
Escrow is good… I like rentacoder’s system. But if dealing outside a freelancer site, I would at least recommend breaking up the payment 50/50. Yeah you could lose the first 50%, but it’s more likely that the contractor will be motivated to finish the job so they can get the 2nd 50%.
Hi Eric,
I feel for both you and the customer here. However recommending a product is a little different than recommending a service. A service should not be paid for 100% up front. It is human nature to loose interest in a job once you have all the money for it. Progress payments or the Escrow would be good.
It is always our responsibility to check out whom we hire for a job.
I do think recommending a service is risky though! and I would look at the guidelines you use for this. A service unlike a product is not complete on recommendation, I would not sell it as an affiliate.
Robbie [I have yet to make my first dollar but that would be my responsibility wouldn’t it.]
I really made it more of a PR issue by publicizing it. Now there’s a bunch of people waiting to see what I’m gonna do!
I think he’s getting at least that much.
I am attempting to get in touch with him, thanks.
I agree with everyone here that you are not legally liable to this individual based on your recommendation.
However, I think this illustrates the importance of really knowing a product or service before we put out name behind it. It also has vital implications for the affiliate marketing industry. If people can not trust our recommendations, than we will lose credibility. Too much of this and people will be reluctant to buy anything online. So perhaps we need to find a way as an industry to address this issue. Our future livelihood could be at stake.
You’re right. I’m not sure if he’s in the US though, and if he is… it would not be 50%; it would depend on his tax bracket.
Hi Eric,
I wrote you a longer reply last night from my iphone, however when I clicked on sign up for a gravatar I misinterpreted it and lost my info, so now I’m just going to say pray on it.
Paul
Corrected the date, thanks!
“True compassion is to act with integrity and not with charity.”
That’s an interesting thought, I’ll have to let that one roll around in my mind awhile.
Thanks Paul - hey my Avast is giving me a virus warning when I tried to visit your blog.
I do not think that’s the case in this situation, but you certainly bring up a good point. And the thought did cross my mind. There is no limit to what con artists will do to get your money. It would actually be a fairly simple scam if Dragutin were in on it. OR better yet… what if he and the copywriter were the same person? Like I said, I really don’t think that’s the case here. But you definitely need to take those things into consideration before reacting when something like this is presented to you.
No I did not make any guarantees. The writer did offer a money back guarantee on his site. However, it appears Dragutin and the writer made the deal via email outside of the website.
Hi Eric,
I dont believe you are liable for this simply because you knew he WAS a good copywriter at one point and now he has failed… why should you be liable for HIS failure, now you know he is NOT a good copywriter and you did the right thing by not recommending him.
Now, if you want to do the right thing! make him an offer to do the copy writing yourself this way to get it off your conscience and it can only help you in the long run due to how you handled the situation. Just my opinion
Thanks, I did not make any commissions on this sale though.
Eric,
Though I feel this incident was born not of any of your faults, the law might put forward a question - “Was there an INTENT of making a Profit out of this Recommendation?”
Given that this recommendation was made on an affiliate link, the law might decide that such an intent really was there. I think you should really talk this out with your lawyer, especially if you foresee a possibility of being sued. However, I feel there are a lot of strong points in your favour, with you having -
- tried the product before having recommended it
- removed the copywriter from your list of recommended professionals once you became aware of his scammy ways
Refund or not? Well, I have an alternate thought. (It might sound silly, but still let me suggest it). You too have written copy in the past, and as you have often said, you still do sometimes. Well, in that case, why don’t you find out from the customer if you writing his copy will help in alleviating his problem ? (However, that might not be a refund in money, but will surely look like a refund by service. And not to mention of the crafty ones out there who might be looking out to take advantage of the situation. Whatever you do - please be careful.)
Those were my two cents. Hope they were of some help!
Thanks,
Reed.
To be honest I don’t think you could be held responsible on either count but I would ask that you take into consideration the following facts.
1. The copywriter was hired because this person trusted your views Eric so he obviously holds you in quite high regard and considers you honest and trustworthy. I think this is a big thing in this type of business.
2. You could say maybe the buyer was a little naive but so are we all at some point in our lives.
3. I’m not saying it’s your fault at all Eric but a little compassion would be good. What about meeting him halfway and refund half or whatever amount you think to be reasonable.
4. If you paid the guy an amount although this was not your fault I think it would say a lot for your strength of character.
5. This guy maybe like some of us and have very little money available but intent on living the dream. Sure you have been there Eric.
By the way really love your tips have really learnt so much from them. Many thanks for that. Hope my comment helps.
You are right, I do feel some obligation otherwise I wouldn’t have written the blog post…
I do not thing you are responsible
to pay this man anything. The
copywriter should pay him back,
because if he doesn’t his
copywriting days are over, after
everyone reads this.
Hi Eric,
This guy must be dreaming. If I have a problem with say Aweber or Hostgator, I wouldn’t Hold you responsible for any of it, just because you recommended it to me. I feel sorry he’s not happy with the work but you didn’t do the work. Anyhow there is a big difference between $197 and $1344.
Hi Eric,
It’s a heck of a dilemma, but I think you are correct in NOT REFUNDING the emailer.
I had a builder referred to me, got a quote, they seemed fine - and they then did a really rubbish job, using sub-standard materials & it cost me more to correct.
I would never ask the person who referred them to me for my money back - it’s not reasonable. I took responsibility for myself, as I had neglected to check whether they were part of the Master Builders association here in the UK.
So in my opinion : you keep your money, sad as that is for the guy who lost out…
cheers
Tracey
Not a bad idea. I normally charge $10k+ for sales letters, but it is something I could consider bringing to the table.
Raise the bar… I like it.
Raising the bar is a good idea.
Nicholas Cole however, needs someone to lower the boom on him.
From what I can see you recommended the person because you have had positive results from him yourself which was honest.
I don’t believe you are liable to give a refund
because your customer took it upon himself to make the decision to buy and not you.
I do however understand your feelings about this situation and your customer.
I can only say that if I was in this position I think that I wouldn’t give the refund but I would do everything I could to help my customer get his money back from the guy who ripped him off.
Plus if I had received commission on the sale I would contemplate refunding him that amount but I believe this is not so in your case because you didn’t get paid either.
To put it bluntly, it looks to me like you both got screwed here.
I also think it’s great that you published this because it may open a few eyes especially with newbies and help people to avoid this sort of situation in the future.
Hey I still love ya man lol.
Have a great day
Ian Wilson
Interesting you say that, because I’ve found paypal to be pretty friendly to the buyer. With a few clicks the buyer can file a complaint with Paypal, and the seller must prove delivery of the product or else refund it. Typically has to be within 45 days though.
Appreciate your opinion as always.
A good heart is always susceptible to abuse. All the good advice you give out for free could benefit you financially but you choose to share it. It is obvious that you are not in this business just to make money. However, there are those who are just “in it to win it” and will cheat you “by any means necessary”. A scam can be a team effort and anyone who tells you to pay for someone else’s mistake because you have a good reputation could be a part of the plot. Anyone with good, adult sense would not tell you to do that. The fact that you are troubled by this man’s loss and asked for help in resolving it is a sign that you want to help. This tells me you are not out to dupe anyone. What I’d like to know is, did you try to get in touch with the copy writer to get the other side of the story or did you see the copy that the buyer was not happy with? You might just find that the problem has more to it than you know. I suggest that you get all the facts from all sides before you even consider throwing money at the problem. What if you find that there is no problem at all? What if someone is just cunning and greedy? What if there is an easy fix that doesn’t cost you money? I’m just saying……… what if? It’s just smarter to do the math before giving the answer. Mel
I don’t feel you should be held responsible for the copywriter’s actions. You had no way of knowing he would act in this manner. Unfortunately for the person that lost the money, it’s an unfortunate loss. From reading the corresponding emails between them, Dragutin asked for too much from the copywriter.
I don’t think you should pay him money for services someone else was supposed to provide. While you did recommend him to your readers based on your good experience with his services, you made no guarentee to your readers about the quality of his work.
The copywriter did create a “sales letter” for Dragutin, however it wasn’t to his satisfaction. Nowhere in their correspondence you have posted was the original contract between the two parties, so there is no way to know if revisions are part of the original contract. I feel sorry for Dragutin in that he feels he “got scammed” by this copywriter, however that being said…it’s not your fault.
It’s sad and I hate that it happened because it makes people not want to trust us IMers because they lump us all together in the same boat of cheats and liars. Some people will definately fit that mold but the vast majority of us are just trying to provide a good living to take care of our families.
My sugestion for Dragutin is if he really just wants his $1344 back then he needs to hire a lawyer who specializes in internet law and go after the proper person(the copywriter).
Eric, I have been on your list for over 2 years and have bought several of the products you have recommended to help me make money online. While none of them have made me rich, I don’t think it is your fault and I would never even fathom asking you for a refund on a product or service that wasn’t yours.
As an affiliate marketer I always try to do my due diligence before I promote or recommend someone else’s product. I feel if you refund this person’s money it will set a precidence that we as affiliates can never come back from.
Dragutin needs to accept responsibily for his actions or seek legal restitution from the copywriter not you. It’s not like you made him spend that much money on a copywriter when he could have just as easily gone to elance.com and got someone to do it for next to nothing…
I’m just sayin’
I agree with Karen. I thought of another way to “meet him halfway”. He wanted the copywriter to help him with his Internet business. Perhaps you can give him access to another program that you know has top-notch info. It would be less money out of your own pocket, and still help him along in his Internet business.
I would offer him something free that you produce to show you are dealing with him/her in good faith. However, the onus on the product purchased is on the copywriter.
Eric,
In my opinion, you’re not responsible. Although when you make recommendations from now on, you may want to suggest that the person or entity you’re recommending be checked out through the BBB or websites that post scam complaints. I’ve been scammed in the past and am very cautious about taking anyone’s recommendations. I always check the BBB before committing my money to anything.
Of course you are not responsible .I think it was irresponsible to give him the money up front.read my blog world economics 101 http://bit.ly/df56KX
It would be easy to side with your customer However,the old saying of caviate emptor comes to mind regardless of what it is you are purchasing. Due Diligence is all important. Your subscriber did not do his due diligence and check out the copy writer further by using Google or whatever means to double check what you were telling him was still the truth. Unfortunately people change for whatever reason good or bad, and in this case it was bad.The only other thing I can suggest is make sure his name is advertised all over the net as someone never to use.
Hi Eric
I’m new to this and have come unstuck a couple of times myself. What is a recommendation? I believe that if you have used a service and received a certain standard of work equal to or better than expected, then a recommendation is in order. If that provider were to enter into a written or verbal contract with another person and that person receives an inferior product then his right to redress is between is between them. As the source of recommendation, you may feel feel a little uneasy but at the end of the day, you acted on your own experience and that is all a recommendation is, or can ever be. There is no possible way that you can monitor every piece of work that provider churns out.
Rick (mindfocus)
It sounds like ‘Dragutin’ made a mistake in judgment. He needs to take his own advice:
“Education is not expensive, ignorance is.”
He needs to learn that:
1. A recommendation is just that, and nothing more. It is not providing a product or a service; if I have a good experience , then I will make a recommendation. If I take someone’s recommendation, then I need to use common sense.
I would start with a small investment, so as not to risk a large loss in the event it doesn’t work out. If I’m satisfied with the value I receive for that small investment, then I may risk a larger investment. I do my research; I read, and I seek counsel.
As always, I have to take into consideration about the possibility of losing that investment and whether I’m willing to live with that. If I am, I make the investment. If I’m not, I don’t make the investment. It’s as simple as that.
2. Life is all about taking risks, some small, some great. But that’s the beauty of individual liberty. We are all free to take such risks. However, the flip side of that is individual responsibility. We cannot have the freedom to take risks without also taking responsibility for them. If people refuse to take responsibility and always want to hand it over to someone else , or the government, then loss of liberty results as well.
Two sides of a coin. Dragutin took a big risk in spending that large amount on an unseen product. He therefore, needs to take responsibility for that decision. Learn from it, chalk it up on his taxes as a bad debt, and manage his risks better in the future.
Having said that, Eric, because your conscience is weighing on you, God obviously wants you to do something. Since you have no legal obligation, under FTC rules, to give him a refund of a service from another provider, this action will be purely based on ethical grounds.
As Christians, we’re called on to “go above and beyond the call of duty”. Jesus said, when someone strikes you on one cheek, offer him the other. He tells us to “not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but to be transformed with the renewing of our mind.”
Which means, that we are to do opposite of what the world would do. This is what differentiates us.
No one can tell you what to do. However, we can help steer you in the right direction. And we can tell you, what we ourselves would do.
If it were me, I would give him “a peace offering” of half the amount, not the full amount because he needs to take some personal responsibility for his misguided decision.
And I would make it clear that this offering is not an admission of guilt , but merely to offer ‘mercy’ as a fellow marketer. But, before I even sent that off, I would clear it with a lawyer to make sure that this cheque would not, in the law’s eyes, actually make me a guilty party. I may want to be merciful, but I must also use my own common sense to protect my business and reputation.
Second, to go above and beyond, I may offer to just write him a sales letter for his product. It seems like he wants to market this as an affiliate, but wants to differentiate himself from others by a unique sales letter. If I’m a good copywriter, it shouldn’t take me more than an hour to write it.
Again, I would make it clear, that this is a “donation” and I am not obligated to correct it according to his wishes, should he not like my sales letter. But, that I am doing this out of the goodness of my heart and to the best of my ability.
Third, I would make it clear on my webpage that when I endorse a product or a service, it’s simply because I had a good experience with it, and that if my readers take my recommendation, then that is their individual choice as part of a free society, so if it doesn’t work out, to not expect me to be responsible for what is their choice alone.
People and circumstances change. What may be a good recommendation today may not be so good tomorrow. That is the nature of change. And so, risk is part of life and it is part of a free society.
I would ask them if they would rather be free to take a risk, or not. As for me, give me liberty.
Remember, you’ll know you’ve made the right decision when you’re not anxious about your decision, when your gut tells you it’s right, according to Phil. 4:7.
God Bless,
Yvonne Amos
Actually, by law you are right you are not liable to refund this customer. Besides, it would be inapproiate to refund him as he may take this copywriter to court and he may get a refund twice, but even if he dosen’t you made your recommendation in good faith since as a affiliate you got no commision the customer has no grounds to so you. I personally like you web site and will comtinue to support your services and advice. However, this does feed into some negatives comments about your services and recommendations when customers are taking your word on services you have recommended. Morally, you could refund this customer but you don’t have too. The real question is about your reputation. Is this a problem that will an adverse effect on your own reputation.
I believe you are NOT responsible for the customers refund, you acted in good faith in recommending the copywriter in respect to your good experience and can not be held responsible for that persons actions after the fact. I understand the customers frustrations at losing a hefty sum of money but ultimately he/she should have had sense enough to not have paid fully upfront. I’m sorry fellow customer but these things happen and we can’t just pointer the finger of blame at someone for our own mistakes.
From what I have read, you do are not responsible to make a refund.
Eric, Over the past couple of years of trying to make it in this business, I have been sold, promised, hyped and lied too so many time I can’t count them all. So, what I started doing is my homework FIRST, before purchasing any product or service, I don’t care who recommended it. All Dragutin had to do was do a search on Google or IM Report card first. IM Report card has nothing on the copywriter, but Google on the other hand has a good deal of information. Some of this information would cause you to check this person out a bit further. If he did that and then made the decision to move forward, it’s on him. Unfortunately he did neither and moved on his own. I don’t have a problem with that, he relied on your one experience with the copywriter. Again I have no problem with him proceeding in this manner. Now here is where all common sense goes in the “crapper”, why on earth would you hire someone to do work and pay for the whole thing UP FRONT! I have always been told that there are two things in life that you cannot fight; ignorance and stupidity. In this case, I believe you are fighting with both.
Do you feel bad for Dragutin that this happened to him based on a referral from you? Yes of course you do. Do you owe him a refund for the work of some one else? No. If you feel like you would like to help him in some way, maybe you could assist him with his sales copy. This may be opening another can of worms altogether because I’m not sure he will ever be happy.
There is my take, for whatever it is worth. If you want to help him out in some way to make YOU feel better, then go ahead, otherwise; Dragutin, from now on take care of business in a business like manner
Kens Tips (Lesson 1)
Apologies for plagiarism!!!
This could be under discussion forever and a day. Let your concsience be your guide.examine it closely and I think that you will find that there is no case to answer
Carry on the good work
Kenneth
I’ve been following Eric’s site for some time now. The information provided in his posts are very helpful and to say the least, It helped me to take the plunge into a new venture. I have even purchased products through Eric that will hopefully assist in my streamlining activities.
So if I fail at what I’m doing, should I blame Eric ? I don’t think so, and I sure wouldn’t ask for my money back on the products I purchased from him if this venture does fail, which it won’t.
Now technically this is not exactly the answer to, forgive me, “The question” in question. Let me try to relate in another way.
Lets say my completely fictitious friend, we’ll call him Bob, refers me to a car lot to purchase a vehicle because he got a fantastic deal on a car and he loves it. I go to the same car lot to purchase a vehicle and decide to make a purchase, but then later find out that the car is not what I expected or even worse, a complete lemon.
Am I to blame my friend for sending me to the car lot ? I would say no.
If I had to take out a grievance it would more than likely be towards the car lot owner.
So my point is this:
People follow other people’s recommendations all the time, it’s a fact of life.
Whether or not you choose to act on those recommendations is a personal choice of yours and no one else.
In this specific situation I would have to say that Eric should not be held liable for the transaction because he acted in good faith without having knowledge beforehand of any suspected illegitimate activity.
P.S.- The website link isn’t finished yet, it’s still in progress!
Unfortunately your position of respect in the internet marketing community will have had considerable influence on his decision to use the copy writer. However it would be unfair for you to be held responsible for someone elses fradulent actions. All I would say is that if you profited in any way from the recommendation then the honourable thing to do would be give up that amount probably not as a refund but as a charitable donation.
Hi Eric, You have nearly 600 responses on this issue in 2 days, as of now — WOW. That’s a lot of negative publicity for the copywriter — he’ll have to redeem his reputation, and quickly — he can pay back the entire amount or part of it, after negotiations. But his name is mud, anyway, after this blog post. Nothing he writes will be accepted by this client, perhaps. The client’s name needed to be disclosed too — is it Umberto Eco, according to your pdf file, or Dragutin?
If you were ‘going to’ receive an affiliate commission (even though you didn’t actually receive it) then, as a goodwill gesture, you could refund that amount to the reader who accepted your recommendation.
Otherwise, you are absolutely not liable to pay anything, for all the reasons already listed by other readers of your blog. Also, it is not your business/responsibility to arbitrate between the parties, or judge whether the client gave appropriate information in the first place — may be the pdf file you linked doesn’t have all the details. The letter Nick produced is very much a re-hash of scores of sales letters we’ve read, which have often inflated the perceived value of the product - but it would still have pulled in a lot of orders from newbies after it was appropriately completed with money-back guarantee etc. The DVDs that are sought to be sold (no disrespect intended to the motivational speakers) are not described too well either. So what would a copywriter have done? This mess reveals, if anything, a copywriter’s responsibility to understand the product and the mind/intention of his client better, and the client’s responsility for ‘due diligence’, and an affiliate’s responsibility to endorse carefully and disclose ‘material connections’ — a lesson for us all, as affiliates or if we engage a freelancer to do something for us.
In this case, the client can pursue his case before the appropriate authorities, or at least write off this ‘bad debt’ or ‘business loss’ in his tax returns, as suggested by another reader.
Zed Arya
You are not responsible, legally or morally. Paying this guy could expose you legally to other similar claims from other dissidents. If you do decide to pay him anyway, do so with the help of a lawyer who can draw up a gag order, stating that if this guy ever reveals to ANYBODY that you settled or paid him a dime, that he will be subject to immediate liability for $100,000 or more… and don’t you reveal to anyone if you paid him or not either. If you choose to buy into the ‘moral responsibility’ guilt trip, there certainly isn’t anything that says you have to reveal that fact to anybody else. These type of gag orders/clauses are routinely used when individuals or companies settle these kinds of disputes outside the courts.
Eric,
We are all talking about amounts of money (even you said that if it had been $197 you would have probably paid or more likely you would not even have had the the request in the first place.
OK so $1300ish dollars is a lot more and you are feeling (possibly) a bit guilty after all it was your recommendation. And whilst that is a large amount, to say me or the guy complaining to a self proclaimed internet millionaire I guess it is not a lot.
So am I saying you should pay ?…..No
Lets move this recommendation stuff up a notch.
Suppose you have a baby sitter who looks after your children and is from your point of view good at what they are doing. So you recommend that person to someone else, who hires the baby sitter. However, the baby sitter (for whatever reason)kills the child they are looking after. Are you feeling guilty? hell yes! Are you guilty of the murder, should you be held responsible for the death of that child? No.
(and believe me I know about feeling guilty check out MatthewFulham.org ..and all I did was take my family on holiday)
Whilst your personal feeling of guilt may make you feel that you are responsible in some way, you didn’t do anything other than make an honest recommendation. Lets face it we all have 20:20 vision with hindsight!
However, would obviously be different if you knew previously that the person was or was likely to commit murder.
So if you know in your heart that it was an honest recommendation, you know it’s not your fault. I feel sorry for the the guy who got scammed.
Iv’e been there with payment processor SWReg who wouldn’t repay on a 60 day guarantee even though it was an hour after the purchase. When I realised that that what they sold me was not what the sales letter made it out to be. Even paypal wouldn’t back me up.
So now I use ‘Buyer Beware’ and before purchasing anything check out the seller as far as I can. Needless to say that after the above I found lots of scam complaints about the person/company concerned. But I should have done my due diligence before hand.
So I don’t believe you are liable or that you should pay him anything.
Wow, most people gave restaurant analogies. I had not considered the babysitter-murder scenario!
Eric, I firmly believe you are NOT responsible for the actions of Dragutin or any other person who tries to make you their scapegoat. The onus lies on everyone to substantiate the honesty & integrity of any supplier of a product before purchasing it - you can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. It was his own choice to use Nicholas Cole - you didn’t force him to even though you personally had received good service from NC. I’m wondering if Dragutin or any of the other complaints you’ve received, studied the Terms & Conditions on NC’s website before placing an order. It appears that Dragutin did not read your TERMS & CONDITIONS on your website either, before engaging the service of the copywriter in question. (I copied & pasted the following from your website):
*****************
TERMS & CONDITIONS:
7. DISCLAIMERS AND LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY.
….Information on our website should not necessarily be relied upon and should not to be construed to be professional advice from us. We do not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any of the information provided, and are not responsible for any loss resulting from your reliance on such information.
10. INDEMNIFICATION.
You understand and agree that you will indemnify, defend and hold us and our affiliates harmless from any liability, loss, claim and expense, including reasonable attorney’s fees, arising from your use of our website or your violation of these terms and conditions.
*******************
I also believe that by making a ‘good faith’ reimbursement, ‘meeting him halfway’ or any other way, would indeed set a precident, & not a good one either.
That solves it all right there.
Your terms protected you, and if you do any type of refund, in goods, cash, or kind, you would be setting a dangerous precedent. I agree with Anita 100%.
hi Eric, Anita has said what i was thinking - that perhaps you should (and all affiliates should) put a disclaimer clause in, even in letters and emails to that effect - it is a recommendation from good personal experience only but the buyer should do their own research and buy at their own risk.
I don’t think you are liable. As a Christian, I know this issue is obviously hard for you. I live in England, and am a Christian. I would personally reply to the guy outlining the above clauses on your website, but as a gesture, perhaps you could give him a little free help to either recover fees from this person or to help him do research in future. Big companies usually sweeten a complaint with a little “I hope this hasn’t put you off our product and we enclose a £5 voucher or whatever…” UK rules may be slightly different to the USA ones but I wish you well and know you will do the right thing, as you are that kind of nice person, one who people can easily take advantage of. I love your free email course and advice. This shows a generous spirit of giving as well. Blessings. Kim
In my opinion, you are not legally liable in this matter, however, I do think you have a responsibility to help this person get his money back.
Your internet background and experience will hold considerably more weight than a newbie trying to get the powers that be to listen to him/her.
I’ll be interested in learning how this comes out.
Hi Eric - WOW You constantly amaze me about your openess.
No you are no legally obligated, but you would feel better - as a person - in the long run to reimburse him.
You stated yours and his case very eloquently.
Please HOWEVER make it very clear that this is a one time DEAL and would not repeated again in similar situations.
It was because you were able to “converse” that this warranted review and comment.
Thanks - Whatever your decision may be.
Eric,
Had you vouched for this scammer in a manner implying a “guarantee” of his product, you most probably would be liable, at least on a moral basis. Appeasing your conscience by paying-up could have significant future consequences …. probably none of which are to your benefit. What happens next time??
Perhaps you should consider adding a disclaimer on your website regarding the use or acquisition of third party goods or services.
I assume that you are sincere in wanting to solve your problem in the most equitable manner possible. I respect that and wish you well.
Hi Eric,
Although Dragutin action was a result of a recommendation made by you, you do not owe him financially. As you stated, your dealing with this copywriter was satisfactory.Dragutin may have seen you as an authority figure on this issue, but it was still his responsibility to do due diligence before hiring Cole. I have purchased products from you that offered bonuses from other internet marketers that required me to purchase from one who I would have possibly considered purchasing from, but from my own investigation I found more negative comments on that marketer than positive and decided that I would not purchase from that marketer. However,I think it is a great idea that internet marketers use/test the products they push and refuse to promote those products they know are garbage. It can only help the credibility of the internet marketing industry and possibly increase sales.The idea is that people will know that you only promote quality products and not just any product just to make a buck from affiliates. However, in this particular situation, I do not think your actions warrant you to refund dragutin,especially since you did not benefit financially from his actions, although I understand why he is frustrated.I think this is an issue for him and Cole to resolve.
Robert selby said it best!
I think refunding his money could set a dangerous precedent. If I recommend a movie to a friend and he doesn’t like it do I give him the money back or the theater? The harm done was by the copywriter and not you. You acted in good faith based on your own experience. He took a chance and lost his Paypal protection by waiting too long. A lesson for us all to do our own research and to be sure we have an enforceable agreement in place. Now if the letters were acceptable but he didn’t get the sales he wanted would he still hold you liable? I feel sorry for the guy but this stuff happens to us all. It is NOT your responsibility. He needs to settle with the writer.
I agree with Tim Ackley, i feel for the guy but you are not respondsible. It is a hard lesson to learn about people and how we cannot trust everybody in this world. I too am a newbie and have been scamed! and i have asked for a refund and i have recieved my money back. As for freezing his account i don’t know that, but i would have a serious conversation about his ethic’s and invite him to read all of these comments.
Eric: I have read a number of these comments and it’s very interesting what is being said. However, interesting sells papers but it does not settle what an emotional person feels should be done. You paid someone and had a good experience. We all have paid someone(s) and have had good experiences and we have paid someone(s) and had bad experiences. From an ethical stand point and you being responsible to the Creator, He will let you know what is right and what is wrong and I know you know that. When someone comes up with the idea that you should be liable for the experience he had in a situation like this - give me a break! Also why didn’t he spend time doing some more work investigating this person? Why didn’t he check out what paypals and his banks policies were? Why does … well the real question here maybe “who is this” asking a third party who put on his website that he obtained services, paid for them, and was satisfied - and now you are to pay him back for his own experience? If he only got one testimonial about an experience (yours) - does that say anything? You’re a stand-up guy and we live in a world of cut-throats and cheats as money rules and you see it every day in your email - “My best friend, this is a great product, you got to have this” - in a word please most of them haven’t even looked at them - The “Word” says - you want wisdom - “ask” - many don’t have the relationship to do that so they self justifying their own thinking searching for others who would agree with them - pretty much the world’s answer since time began!! It’s a good lesson - thanks for sharing - but if you pay this guy - can the rest of us get some also??
What does your attorney say?
When you say this person wrote the sales letter for you, where were you in your marketing ventures? Was your reputation established? It sounds like the person who paid $1300 for nothing was just stared in his and was taken advantage of.
Anyway, my feeling is you made a goodfaith recommendation even though you only used this writer one time. Are you responsible? I dont think so. Without a contract, their no winners. The writer will perhaps loose his business and reputation if he had one, and the client is out his money.
Everyone should use this action as a learning experience.
Geez… I think I see a new video for ya.
Take care,
Mark
I agree with most of the answers that you are not liable. The buyer used poor judgment in paying up front the total price, especially since it was his first dealing with him.
You aren’t ethically obligated to reimburse him either. This person should look at this as an expensive lesson learned.
Thanks for your training and openness with your writings.Keep it up.
Its such a shame eric. you give away so much quality information that people will follow your recommendations and your videos are brilliant. i can clearly imagine the guy who got stung choosing on your recommendation. i would.
i think you both got stung by a cheat. if i had the money to give this guy i would split the difference.
whatever you decide to do eric i’m still behind you, but you asked for my opinion.
Eric,
I have always been more than appreciative of your honesty, openness, helpful tips and information—quite a legacy and reputation in this business.
I was ripped off seriously ($13,800) by a coaching company that was highly referred by an IM’er I had been following. I was such a newbie, but let’s face it, all I had to do was Google this company’s name and do my own cursory investigation and I would have been put on notice that the price was way, way over the top and the “coaching” was a joke. I never got anything back from the “coaching” company but I never thought to go back to the IM’er who Definitely got an affiliate commission because of my purchase.
I think the copyguy owes the refund without question. His copy is nothing but goop and I recognized it as being copied from yet another guru’s sales page. No attempt was made to match the customer’s need. We should all flag this guy as a sham and a crook.
However, all that being said, your referrals mean something. You got notice that copyguy’s work had deteriorated, yet I’m not clear when that happened in the timeline with your customer. If you had put something out to your list that your recommendation no longer is valid for X,Y,Z, Etc., that could save a customer some $ if they take action. You show your moral compass in all the ethical work and timely information you do and give to help us fellow marketers. I would protect that reputation above your pocketbook and above all else. Almost everything life is fleeting (fame, wealth, popularity); but your character and your integrity remains. I would give him something that helps him learn the business a little better. It makes you both a winner in this unfortunate situation and since this information would be helpful to many others, you end up with an ebook that further establishes your value and credibility in IM.
Your ebook becomes a case study and copyguy may get a perspective and a loss to his income only we as customers can deliver.
I understand his feelings also, as I have been scammed before. I believe that you gave the endorsement in good faith as you seem to have others interest in mind. maybe someone will read this story and help him out. GOD works in mysterious ways. I do not think that you should be held responsible for another persons actions. If only people did what they promised to do, and that’s a topic for another day.
Eric: I belive that you are not responsible for
this, you give a huge value with your lessons and tip’s , worth more than this $1344.-
I feel sorry for this man, but this is life
and the copywriter put away his pen for good I hope!
Hello Eric,
You are not responsible to pay out of your own pocket. Your opinion to me is justified; but you can offer him a money making product of their choice that you offer …just because he’s your customer…and out of the kindness of your heart you appreciate any future business from them and (don’t have any control over other’s actions; but being a valued customer?? Is he?…this is the benefit for this one. May he re-coups what he lost with that and move forward. In life you win & lose..who you stay connected with, listen to, and follow is what matter’s most and determines your condition afterwards..of the type of person you become: bitter or forgiving, successful or failure. Last statement: Many circumstances can be used as a platform to wittness with HIS wisdom and by HIS Love…may we Christians be sensitive to HIS Spirit’s leading.
Hi Eric - you are not responsible for information you passed in good faith. We are all responsible for our own actions and it is up to the individual to check with whom they do the business and the agreement they enter into. The guy who wrote to you seems a nice chap from the tone of his letter and if you explain to him he would probably be understanding than not. Good Luck
Hi Eric:
This is an unfortunate situation and I am of the opinion that you are in no way responsible. You gave a recommendation based on the work this writer did for you in the past, but I don’t think you PAID him prior to his completion of the job. An that was where he went wrong.
This situation will result in you creating a DISCLAIMER whenever recommendations are sought. His dissatisfaction lie with the writer. However, $1400.00 to loose in the present economy,is a great loss, so if you do the “gentleman’s agreement”, you could give him the refund, and trust me, because of what you did, he could be your one man “traffic go-getter”
The decision is all yours, and whatever it is, I will respect it.
Beverlie
Your not liable and monetary compensation would set an undesirable precedent.You could perhaps offer to write some copy as a good will gesture
No..you are not liable
We all have to accept responsiblity for our own actions and decisons. Your reco was a well meaning guideline nothing more…that you have since seen prudent to retracted.
We have all (? the ones that are Doers amongst us anyway) been caught out over paying or getting ripped off… Sadly the internet is totally awash with businesses that underdeliver…..particularly in the aera of support
It is good to be concerned (it is right and proper and the christian way) you maybe able to “help and “Support” Dragutin in some way..But Liable …No Way
After a careful reading of your description of what took place with regard to the writer you recommended, in my opinion the series of circumstances with respect to timing was unfortunate. That was not your fault. I agree with most of the others who replied to your request that you are not responsible legally or morally for what happened. I think that David, the first respondent , said it best.
Eric, I agree with the vast majority — you’re not liable and the offended party should be directed to appropriate legal channels. But perhaps making some kind of peace-offering, such as allowing him to choose one of your products, will placate the fellow and satisfy your wish to make things right.
I do not believe that you are responsible, nor should you feel morally culpable.
A simple solution, for outsourcing services such as this would be to require that they use something like Guru.com’s escrow service (it protects both parties).
Further, it may interest some of your readers to know that I sought and obtained a full refund of an expensive software application I bought from a foreign company late last fall. The Vendor had refused to allow a refund, and Plimus sent a number of fully-automated emails to both me and the vendor, but obviously didn’t want to get in the middle of it. Eventually Visa (credit card provider) issued the refund (within 45 days of their involvement). I approached Visa through my issuing bank, with whom I have a solid relationship, and I assume that they may have applied pressure on Visa to issue the refund.
NOT HIRED ANYONE OF LATE. GOING TO GET MY GIRLFRIEND TO HELP. I;VE GOT SOME PEOPLE I;LL BE COTACTING IN THE NEXT COUPLE DAYS. I LOVE THIS PROGRAM. WILL HANG IN THERE NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES. NEED TO COME UP WITH AN URL FIRST THANKS DANN
Eric,
I agree with the general feeling that you are not responsible for this man’s business decisions. You should not pay him. Further more, I think that if any of us were to cross his path, we should be very cautious in doing business with him.
Eric,
With a statement made of, “recommendation of this affiliates product or service being made in good faith, that you are NOT responsible for any affiliate”, needs to be in writing on your website. Anywhere you mention an affiliates name there should be a statement made. Saying something like, “If you choose to go with an affiliate company then you are leaving Eric’s Tips and if there is any negligence on the affiliates behalf then my company is not responsible for the actions of the affiliate company”.
You need to have an on line contract with each affiliate. (Consult all of this with your attorney before you make any move) If you have such a clause in your affiliate agreement then I believe you would not be responsible.
But, if you did not have in writing on your website something to protect you against any fraud by an affiliate to their client, then I feel you are responsible. Your word is your word and whatever you say, you should always go with what you know is right in your heart.
Being compassionate is also a great consideration. Now, for your clients lack of research and you not having any protection statements between you and the affiliate, I feel it’s a wash. Who followed through? Who didn’t follow through? You do right by whom you serve and let the client be responsible for his own negligence.
I hope all this helps you make your decision more clearer.
Aloha,
Kealoha
Hi Eric,
This is a dilemma that can affect everyone who creates a business online or even in the normal course of everyday business dealings. I think that very often we endorse another based on our personal experience with that individual or company and on other testimonials we may have received from others too. Think of all the investors who have lost money in investment companies that have gone belly-up, are those who advertised and recommended them liable? However, ultimately we are not responsible should that experience not be the same for all others. I believe that each one of us is responsible for our own research if we want to employ another person and the buck stops with us should that deal go sour. It is a personal contract between the two parties and no others should be held liable for any negative outcome.
As Christians we invariably struggle over issues like this as we do not want to see others suffering and perhaps more so if we know we may have had even a small part to play in it but still, the real issue is between the two main players.
The fact, too, that you made the necessary amendments to your website as soon as the new FTC guidelines came out says a lot in that you are keeping your site up to date and meeting the legal obligations of your government.
In short, I do not believe that you are liable for the reimbursement of Dragutin and he has to bear the cost himself and I trust that he will be the wiser for it.
PS. Really loving your video series, great stuff.
You definitely are not responsible. A recommendiation does not make you responsible for someone elses work,it is up to the buyer to research if this person is reliable. As an automobile mechanic for thirty years I have not been able to please 100% of the people 100% of the time. Dragutin should have checked this person out first before giving ANY money.
Kiwi thoughts! I have been the victim of several scams one for as much as $7000. I have found that by being inventive and persistent I have managed to have some money returned.
I understand Eric’s quandry, however there is more to this than right & wrong, if it was purely a legal matter it would be clear, as Im sure Eric understands. Eric needs to be principled but at the same time fair. He was an affiate & expected money a return on his investment, although none was paid. He recommended this guy and Erics recommendation is his bond. Its clear that the responsibility for the return of Erics clients money is the clients, however, he rightly & legally claims from the writer & Eric.
Personally, when I purchased from Eric, what convinced me to buy was not just the claims on the particular deal, but was the overall confidendence I felt by doing due dilligence on a number of Erics claims. Recommendations and affiliates were part of my overall confidence to buy from Eric.
So therefore in my opinion, Eric should pay, because he claims & proves that he earns huge money on his affilates, he cannot when it suits say I didnt earn enough one or that one. After paying his client Eric still has the right to persue the writer if he wishes, he could pay his client half with an agreement between his client & himself to pursue the writer over time, this would make his client a client for life & give us all the extra confidence you are a very principled man. So, Eric pay up & help your client!! *smile*
I agree with most of the comments about not being legally or morally obliged to pay Dragutin. However you obviously feel bad about the whole situation, which is a credit to you. I also agree with one suggestion in doing some copywriting for him. I do not know how much or what copywriting Dragutin wanted done, but you are a good copywriter and how long would it take to do what he paid for? I guess that is the question and do you want to spend that time. I would not refund in money, as that sets a precedent for other less than honest people to try and get refunds through third parties. If you do decide to do copywriting you need not tell us, so as not to set another precedent.
Eric: You are not responsible.
1) You’re only responsible is u were a mediator or doing the work in his behave and you did not.
2)You only gave free and honest recommendation base on the experience you had.
3)These gentlemen was his decision to use this recommendation or not. He should have done his home work before making any decision.
4)The money, paying him first was a mistake you do not pay until the service was render.
(A paid Musician never will play good!)
He should go after the person to whom he gave the job too.
We all make mistake and we learn from it and we keep looking up to our success.
Eric: You could not control the terms of the agreement between those two parties.
Why should you be responsible because he decided to overpay or pay up front.
Eric,
I appreciate your dilemma. As a realtor, I have been taught to be very careful about recommending home inspectors, contractors, lawyers, etc. to my prospects or clients. If any of the recommendations backfire, I would open myself up to dissatisfaction, anger and perhaps even lawsuits from my clients. But I want to be helpful, so sometimes I do make recommendations. I think the best way is just to be careful in how you make the recommendation, and do it with appropriate disclaimers, e.g. “my previous clients have been satisfied with this contractor and I believe him to be honest, but I cannot guarantee his future performance.”
As to whether you’re responsible for your reader’s loss, absolutely not. Your reader made a business decision based on limited information, took a loss, and should learn from it and move on.
In case you are running a “Yes, Pay Him” and “No, Dont Pay Him” reader poll, put this post in the “No” column but I would agree to “gift” him sales letter/s of equal “value”. Eric you are very noble to entertain the moral issue and solicit the opinions of us all, and by the looks of it you have already spent time replying to many posts already…take the rest of the time to repay him with your craft. That way he can get on with what he set out to do in the first place…a chance to get his online business going..giving him back the money will only set him back to where started.. and with a bad taste for in his mouth. Keep us posted with your decision!!
I don’t think you are responsible..though I can understand feeling bad that the recommended person didn’t work out for the party that bought it. I have read the rules from the FTC and in there it clearly states that you are not responsible..example I could get great service at a mechanics shop and tell everyone and someone else goes there and doesn’t like the service and complains..I am not responsible for the kind of service they received..Now if I truly received a commission from that and all services that I sent there..then Yes..I would feel obligated to pay the amount I received and then I would not recommend that service again unless it seems to be an isolated case..I think I would also start stating that I am not responsible for the service of other entities and that the consumer is responsible in all risks that are associated with any or all other business ventures that they choose to make.
I believe we are all adults and no matter what we do, we can’t possibly blame anyone else. I have experienced the same. Of all the JV offers during the CBPredators hype, James of ihonestlythink.com offered the most convincing review. His fantastic bonuses even included a website where I can get free domain and hosting for one year. Well, my credit card got charged for one year and worse, the host server is not even compatible with CBPredators system. As a result I can not use CBPredators and hosting together. CBP Support could not even send any kind of reply. So what did I do? I wrote a very polite email to ihonestlythink.com about what happened so that he can stop endorsing the free domain and hosting to other customers. What else can I do except pray…
I believe that under any jurisdiction in the world, you are not liable. However as your heart/conscience tells you that you have a moral responsibility you should probably offer the victim some goods or services which can help him but minimize your physical cost. It will make you both feel better, and that is both constructive and positive and will benefit both under the Law of Attraction.
Certainly I know how he feels, having spent thousands and earned zip! But it really is a case of Caveat Emptor - Buyer Beware.
A company that sets up websites was recomended to me by a well known person in the IM business a website of poor quality and a high price resulted, They stopped replying to my emails and would not consider any reimbursment to me.
Although I notified the recommender of my loss there was no expectation of any compensation from him as it was my responsibility in the first place to check their product.
This is the problem with AMERICA today, nobody wants to be responsible. You do not owe this guy a thing. If he didn’t check out the person you recommended and went on your blind recommendation, then he got what he researched, nothing.
Good lord - look at all the comments.
One of my clients asked me my opinion on this post. So, I gave it to her.
Basically, like I told her - I’m not a lawyer. So, take it with a grain of salt, but I can’t imagine that you’re liable…
I know what I would’ve done though.
I would contact the copywriter and try to convince him to give a refund. I mean, look at the incredibly bad press he’s getting out of this otherwise. Other than that - you really don’t want complaints mounting with the FTC, PayPal, & the BBB.
Harris
what’s up Harris. Yeah there’s a few comments here.
This is a hard one to write about. On the other hand to my knowledge Eric is a very good copy writer. Maybe Eric would consider to write what the other copy writer did not write. That is what I would do. Without a sales letter there is no promotion to make money. I believe Eric will do right at the end of the day.
I would think Nicholas Cole would want to refund the $1344 just to get rid of this page. Anyway, I don’t think Eric should be on the hook for reimbursing the unhappy customer. In the future, I assume that any business suggestions should be clearly labeled, “Use at your own risk.” I know after reading this post, I will certainly make sure I include such a warning on my sites. (And for the record, I wouldn’t put much weight on whether a company is listed with the BBB or not…I have personal experience with observing how their process works and companies can advertise themselves in good standing after some really uncool behavior).
A refund for what?? I have given & received so many “opinions” in my life, a bunch of us would “shuffle” money around on a consitant basis.
Yes, I am one of the folks who “got taken,” not by you, Eric! I have saved all of your GOOD opinions, Eric..but I’ll never “get it!!” Can’t find anyone to show me. Our Son was a Computer “Geek” but we lost him to cancer 3 years ago. That is why I paid, in the hope to learn, to keep my mind busy.I never got a response from any of the people..thieves?
No, Eric, it is not your fault.
Best Regards…
Eric
You are not responsible for another persons actions. I am some what like you in that it is my intent to do the next right thing I grew up this way and have been doing so for 57 years. I also believe in the golden rule do unto others as you would have them do unto them. If I were to spend that amount of money on anything I would first check into the reliability of product. It is my opinion That the person he has been doing business with should be the bearer to make the next right thing to do RIGHT
Hi Eric: I think I understand why this guy is asking you for a refund and has not or at least appears he has not gone to the copyrighter for resolution. He feels that since you recommended this person, you should be held lible because as his coach, you are taking on the role as advisor and mentor. Was there any form of contract signed between you and the copyrighter or you and the victim for a lack of a better word? Did the victim sign a contract with the copyrighter? Most businesses on the web, unfortunately are fly-by-night and really have no intention to do what they promised, or are paid to do. Where you used the same copyrighter and you advised this person to use this same copyrighter, then this is where it gets grey. You say you had success with this copyrighter and that is what you based your advise to the complainant on. So, are lible? My opinion is yes you could be held accountable possibly in a court of law. However, we are not in a court of law and there is no governing body on the web. It is too large. However, you did not mention anything about fairness to this person. It is not fair that you as an advisor and mentor of this person, that you advise him to use this copyrighter and not consider yourself at least half responsible for his loss. Sorry Eric, but you did ask for my opinion. Good luck to you both.
Kindest regards as always: Jim Booker
I think you have done a splendid job and has strived to be as accurate and complete as possible in preparing the Eric’s Tip. Readers should be aware the fact that the information provided and recommendations made are not always accurate due to the rapidly changing nature of the internet. They must rely on their own judgement about their individual circumstances to act accordingly. A reader who encounters loss should seek the services of a competent professional in legal, business, accounting and finance field. Don’t fault the teacher.
You are not responsible . Anyone that makes a purchase on the internet today with one recomendation with out doing their own research just does not understand “buyer beware”!
Let me put this in a more simple setting.
If Eric had bought a beautifull TV at some store and he is thrilled by the picture and recomended the same tv to the reader ,but the reader his TV broke the first day .
Where would the reader go ?? off course @ the store . SO I think that everybody has a mind of its own . When you buy, its your money at stake, not the person who recommended the product. I think that the reader has to accept this and SEE THIS AS A LESSON (A $1344 worth lesson). Every business has it’s price ……
Just accept it and move on ….
I think i made it clear that a Eric cannot be held responsible by the reader’s action and cannot refund his money .
sorry adding my website
I’d say you have three things you must consider in this situation. You have the legality issue, the moral aspect and the effect on your credibility. Legally I don’t feel you are responsible. Morally, I feel you recommended the copywriter because you really felt he would be an asset to your readers, so it wasn’t done with malice. So morally I don’t feel you are responsible. The only thing it may effect is your credibility, but only time can tell how much. In my business I have people ask me to recommend people or companies quite often and have learned to never recommend just one. I always recommend no less then three and always add, what may work for some may not for others, so always check out each so you can choose who you think is the best fit for you.
So the other thing that has to be taken into consideration is his responsibility to check out the copywriter.
Even though I feel sorry for this guy and would like to see you and him met halfway, I don’t feel you owe him a refund.
Dajeno
I do not believe you are responsible. And I do not think you should give him the money because it sends him the wrong message. But, it is very kind of you to consider giving him the money anyway. I feel badly about what he went thru with this guy, but when the day is over, it is not your fault.
Not liable, not obligated, BUT: helping Dragutin rewrite the Nicholas Cole text in the spirit and style of those e-marketers he admires: wouldn’t be wrong, if you know what I mean. Lend him a hand, before you consider lending him a handout. And if this feels like the law of the bandito, gimme your money, you must just say no, Eric.
I vote no liability. Yes to teaching us how to avoid such a situation.You stated your experience and it was used on the site. This was not a guarantee of future results.
I do think it is a warning to us to be very careful as to who we choose to promote.
Congratulations, Eric, in getting so many responses. You have a lot of friends.
Would love to be controversial, but I would have reached the exact same conclusions.
Thanks for your transparency, and the dialogue this creates for our community.
Howard
Hey Eric,
I agree with the fact that IF you had of received a commission, it would only be right to refund that to the person you referred. Since you never did get paid, you are pretty much in the same boat. There is nothing more demeaning and demoralizing than to put your name and integrity on the line for someone only to get stabbed in the back.
Affiliate marketing is not for the weak of heart (or will, as far as that goes). You above many people already know that and even tell people that watch your videos. It takes a special type of person to be an affiliate (and be good at it).
Scam artists are everywhere and the Internet has just given them one more method of fleecing unsuspecting people out of their hard earned cash.
I would probably try to help the person if I could, to get what they were wanting and maybe even work out a special deal with the copywriter (The NEW one, not Nicholas) to provide some copy as part of a package (Buy 6 get one free type of thing) because we know you usually have more than one product online at any one time
Anyway, if it were me in your shoes, that is what I would do. Hope that helps some, but with all the comments, might take a week or so to filter through them all and make a sound decision.
Best Wishes in your choice,
Mark ‘MKWeb’ Hultgren
http://www.mkw-ind.com
http://www.2getsales.com
Hi Eric, I’m a bit confused here, what are those 9/10 pages of salesletter in the pdf? Is that not the finished article or is it a draft or what?
I do agree with the majority of replies that say don’t refund the victim, it is not your problem. But a few say do, with another few saying compensate him with a product.
If you feel obliged to compensate him, do as Scott said and I was thinking on the same lines, “you have copywriting experience, offer to do the job for him”. At least that way you will have shown compassion and a willingness to help him without admitting liability. As you said if you were in his shoes you too would be asking for a refund.
You know bad news travels faster than good news, especially around the internet.
Whatever way you handle it, I know you will have given it alot of thought before the final decision and I for one will still respect you for it, whatever the outcome.
My understanding is that it is the finished sales letter delivered by the writer. But the customer is claiming that the letter is not relevant to the product. I’d be happy to hear the copywriter’s side of the story, and I’ve asked him but have yet to receive a response.
Maybe my perspective is a bit different. If the consumer purchased your emails and program (as I did) and you endorsed the copywriter through your program, then I believe you bear some responsibility. Perhaps you can help the consumer find another copywriter and provide a partial refund to help compensate for their losses. I bet the consumer would appreciate the help as much as the money and you can maintain your integrity without setting a bad precedence.
Hello Eric, my stance on this is very clear. You have done everything right I would not be repaying him a cent. Cheers Toni
Hello:
I feel that you are not responsible to have to repay this person, (I do feel bad for him as it has happened to me also) You only recommended the person on your site as your dealings with him went well and you felt he was good. It should be up to this person to refund the money as the work was not done right.
Something to think about for everyone online.The copywriter is the one who should pay .
Have a laugh on you tube http://www.youtube.com/user/WyteGarillaz
It’s really unfortunate things like this happen. It really does not have any benefit to you, the reader, or even the copywriter for him to do what he did. I think the reader is SOL on that on since technically you are not liable in my opinion. It would be a personal choice for you to compensate the reader on that one.
I’m sure you’ll know what to do, good luck Eric.
aBlogger
This is exactly why courts were invented. There is a grey area. My logical mind says it falls on the vendor and client to sort this matter out or take it to court if it cannot be resolved.
From an ethical or moral point the same applies.
For a human being living in a rather dicey world point of view, I would say spread the word about this vendor and paint it exactly as it is. A scam or total incompetence. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a non commerical unbiased review board for all affiliate marketers to leave detailed descriptions of their negative experiences?
I would not think so as you did post that you did not endorse “subject” anymore.I would how- ever seek out my own Business Lawers advice.
To protect yourself as I’m sure that you have already.Some kind of agreement between both partys.Could end the problem should one arise.
I stand behide you,as you are not the complants
party adviser.
Michael
Hi ERIC
I don’t think you should have pay because you have mention a whlie back that we shouldn’t pay all the Money until you see what you are paying for Their is a lot of Junk online . In my 5 years online haven’t found lot of good programs that you can earn from they earn from you with very little in return. Eric keep up your good Writing
Willie
Hi Eric,
I am very impressed at both your sincere ethical pause and transparency of this situation. I am not a lawyer not an expert on affiliate obligations but what I get from this situation is the negative energy that exists between you and him.
Negative energy is often at the root of money fights but under it is usually something else. What I get from Dragutin is a slight desperation of a guy who just wants to succeed.
So help him.
You are a man of many gifts and talents. Leave money out of it but perhaps there is something else you can offer him - not out of guilt or fault - but from humanity.
He says he wants his money but what I really think he wants is a break.
I wonder what he would say if asked “what would really help you right now?’
My two bits from Canada,
Beth
Ethically, and morally, no, I don’t think you are obligated in any way, and I’ll leave the legal to someone in that business.
However, there is a fascinating concept here.
I bought something not too long ago that had a large number of endorsements. It basically didn’t work. Maybe I should ask all those who gave endorsements to give me a refund.
Maybe I could get refunds from several of them and end up making a profit, or not.
Dear Sir,
I personally feel that you may have a moral obligation as we will only buy from another vendor or engage their service because of your recommendation…though, of course…you can denied it but it may compromise your integrity in the future as many will not listen to your recommendation anymore although you acted in good faith. Your fault lies in not doing a proper and thorough investigation into the person that you have recommended…we trust the recommended him, because we trusted you….well the ball is at your feet and many will see how you kick the ball but I will be careful if I am you so as to ensure that you are trustworthy to all concern…especially to those who trust you NOW..!!!!!!!
You are not responsible for his actions and you are not at fault. While it is true that the copywriter did a good deal with you, each and every transaction is a separate deal. The buyer may have had a different request of services than you did. There may be no way of really knowing the full details. So he is grasping at straws in order to not take a financial loss and you are one of the straws.
I had a simular request presented to me last year before the FTC rules. I purchased several system boards from a certain vendor and complimented the vendor for the great service and his products. The vendor posted my comments on his website as a testimonal to his great service. Another person bought a system board like me from “my vendor”. The problem occurred when the vendor emailed the USPS tracking number of my package to the other buyer by pure mistake. Of course, when the other buyer discovered that the package per the confirmation was delivered and signed for by me, he threw a fit at me, wanting me to refund him the money for the product or at least to ship it to him directly at my expense.
I called the vendor and the vendor stated that the corrected USPS delivery confirmation number was sent to the other buyer and that the package was just received by the other buyer per USPS. The other buyer was just trying to get a “free” system board or a reimbursement from me due to a mistake made by the vendor. The buyer refused to give up his pursuit of the delivery. It was only when the vendor and I pointed out to him that he signed and received his system board per the corrected USPS confirmation number, that he finally stopped hounding me for a refund for someone else’s mistake.
I do not believe you are either liable or ethically required to pay for his loss. I do think that when hiring someone online, you ask for a small job, and slowly develop trust. Most of us have “lost money” online, that is the nature of the “Beast”!
I have felt for a long time you are one of the most ethical and helpful people online, and I know you would do what you feel is right.
I believe that whoever receive the money should return the money to the payee. In this case you did not receive the money so you are not at fault and need not return any money.
As a life member of the consumer association of my country we always believe in this principle
I DON’T THINK YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS REFUND. IT HAS ALREADY BEEN SETTLED, NONE OF THE CELEBRITIES THAT ENDORSE PRODUCTS IN COMMERCIALS CAN BE SUED IF A PRODUCT DOESN’T MEET THE CONSUMER’S SATISFACTION. HOWEVER THEY MUST ALSO USETHE PRODUCT THEY ENDORSE.
No! you are not responsible. People must take responsibility for their actions. Gather the facts & make a decision. It is not whether it is a lot or little money. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Legally you are not responsible.
Jim
One’s protection is the PayPal guarantee. It should not have been allowed that that period lapse.
Eric, sounds to me like he is looking for someone to help him in this problem. He has to deal with the sales guy and work it out! It is his business with the sales guy and you are not liable for what the sales guy promises to his customers. I don’t know what his deal is in this matter, maybe he’s burned out on writing, who knows! You are not responsible for his actions. Franklin
Hi Eric,
Before you can even choose which direction to go you need some sort of proof that the person in question has not already received a refund. As well, has he exhausted all avenues to get the refund? Will he still pursue trying to find the copywriter to get a refund from him even though you chose to oblige his request of you? Too many “dark” areas to consider. As so many say, “Buyer beware.”
Eric,
I’ve known you for a while, and you don’t promote rubbish to your readers. It’s not in your interest to promote stuff that’ll put your name into disrepute.
I have two partners and they are BOTH lawyers, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that you do not owe a cent to anyone in this instance. Also, because of your website terms and conditions you’d be highly unwise to offer any kind of refund. You’ve asked people’s opinions here, but at the end of the day opinions are just that… opinions!
I have also been ripped off by Nicholas - there you go - he’s written to me several times and he knows what I can do if I really want, but payback and karma can be a b%^*ch
Eric, wake up and smell the roses - we are all personally responsible in life for our own buying decisions - not from the person who referred us onto the seller!
Would I feel morally belittled because of Nicholas being a wanker and making you feel bad… YES… but would I feel bad that one of your readers spent WAY more than Nicholas’s standard rates to get copy done… NO!
Up to you Eric, but all of your future dealings with your readers, customers and clients will all be hanging on your decision today… you know you don’t owe anything bar an apology in this case!
Nicholas, I know you’ll be reading these comments, so now I know about this, know about the trouble you’ve caused so many people, screwed around with Ryan etc, all I can say is “guard yourself accordingly”!
David Cavanagh
You are not responsable for his refund.I feel for him like everyone we all have been ripped off before.Lesson learnt.
You do not owe him a refund at all. You gave an honest recommendation about your real experience, and you can’t be held financially responsible if the experience for this person turned bad.
Like others have wisely said above if someone recommends a contractor, a mechanic, a restaurant, etc and the experience is bad a refund is not the responsibility of the person that gave the opinion. I don’t even think people would consider this for a short amount of time even.
A refund from you in this situation is like you having to serve prison time for a crime you never committed. Here is an example.
You recommend a bank to someone you meet. That person goes to that bank on your recommendation and while they are there a bank robbery occurs. During the robbery the person you recommended the bank to gets injured. The bank robber later gets caught, but our court system lets him off free.
So now the person you recommended the bank to decides to file charges against you for the injuries occurred because he went to a bank on your recommendation. You get put in prison now and are serving time for something you never committed.
Ok, so I know that sounds ridiculous, but in all seriousness that is what we are dealing with here! The issue that happened in this case with the copywriter just like in my little side story above is 100% out of your control!
I am really surprised that your reader even approached you for a refund! I could understand an email of warning about this guy, but asking for a refund when you weren’t even responsible is amazing. It takes a lot of guts to even do this.
I feel awful for this guy, but really it is all a matter of due diligence. It seems like you only paid this copywriter $197 and this guy paid him $1,344. He paid him almost 7 times more so the service he paid for was probably different than what you paid for. So your customer or reader that took the recommendation should have been more cautious when he signed on for this job.
Eric, you are a great person, but you are not responsible at all!
thanks Paul
That is a very interesting analogy “the bank robbery” Well yup you can’t just ask someone else for a refund just because you are not satisfied. Anyway what he wrote in his letter is not acceptable ,just by asking from you is kinda out of this world ….but he paid $over a thousand dollars… he has got to trust you ALOT!
Hi Eric,
Legally you don’t owe the money. However, as a Christian we want to do right by other folks and have compassion for what they are going through. My suggestion, since you are good at copywriting yourself, would be to do a sales letter for him or have one done, so that he can proceed to progress with his business.
I would also suggest that you post something with your recommendations in the future, stating that this is just a recommendation and you are not responsible for any possible changes (or future reliability) in the one you are recommending and that the customer check them out himself - so that this does not become something others will ask of you.
This person needs a sales letter and it doesn’t seem like he can pay for it again. That would be my compassionate response - to try to help him with his problem, but protect yourself for the future.
FYI -I have appreciated very much all your good advice over the years.
In Christ,
Nancy N.
Eric,
Thank You for bringing this to our collective attention - while this type of refund request does not happen that often, it is something that any serious marketer needs to be aware of. So we need to apply more due diligence before promoting products and also look at our disclosure and disclaimer statements …
Ani
Is that guy does not have brain? He knows for sure to whom he send the money, and why ask for refund from you?
Oh come on! seriously man, who in their right mind would even remotely consider giving a refund for someone elses product/service?
I understand the desire to keep a good relationship with the guy who felt burned, but paying him for his failures is not an acceptable response.
I read your post and if i’m not mistaking, you said you would have done the same if you were in his shoes - Well, I think thats really a low level position to take.
Look, we are all adults, we all know the nature of the net, and ultimately we are all responsible for doing our own due diligence reguarding any purchase.
We do not get paid for making bad choices regardless of how we came to the conclusion of making a purchase.
You already know that from the legal stand point you are 100% in the clear, so what you are really focusing on here is the ethical position, and you are exploiting that position by engaging your readers just as any good marketer would do.
If you do have some sort of brain-drain and decide to give that guy money, I just want you to know that my third cousin once met his step uncle in a bar and the step uncle told my third cousin that he had $2,000 in his car and that my cousin could have it if he gave the step uncle a $200 deposit. Therefor, since there is a connection to this guy, who is also in some way connected to you, and there was no $2,000 in that car, pluse my cousin lost that $200, I think that you should pay me the money lost on that transaction because we are all connected in some way.
Oh wait.. come to think about it, since we are all on the net, why don’t you just cut me a check for every purchase ever made that someone was not happy about - i think that should square everything away perfectly!
Okay, yeah I made light of the situation, but really, come the f%^k on!
I feel that Mr. D should have checked on Mr. C’s reputation and work ethics as well as with the BBB, credit card company and certainly before he paid out that large amount of money before he received his services for which he paid. It’s a Buyer Beware sort of country or world. I’m sure that doesn’t make you feel any better, but I think justice is/or would be served.
I don’t see how you could be responsible. I’d consult with your attorney on this one. You have disclaimers on your site. Everything on the web should be listed as buyer beware. Everyone needs to be responsible for investigating on their own. You had good service from that copyrighter and you spoke of that specific service. I think a lawyer would say you are not responsible. You have compassion and you have done the right thing to discuss it but I’d put an end to it after you discuss with your lawyer.
I think you cannot pay for something that you did not do though if you empathise with him you can assit him.
I have recieved requests like this before as well. It boggles my mind that people get involved with someone else but because the read or heard about them on my (or in this case your) site they feel I am (or you are) somehow respondsible for their decisions and the third parties negligence.
Not only do I not feel you are under no liability or obligation for or to this person, but I feel the person whom wrote this email in some ways is also respondsible for the transaction going the way it did.
Let me explain.
When a transaction involving that kind of money is conducted both parties should have a written agreement that spells out all possible outcomes, including rights if the transaction is not fulfilled as specified and/or not fulfilled up to the quality of standards as are expected.
If a time restraint for a refund is looming, you as the payee do not continue to wait, you instead begin proceedings to protect yourself against the transaction not being fulfilled, and you as the payee clearly state and follow through with this with the outsourced individual kept in the loop and fully made aware you are taking such action.
Then I have to ask myself, Who pays that much money out of pocket without putting it in escrow to make sure they get delivery of the said product? Or does so without a written guarantee of some type?
I have had people buy products from them for as little as $500 dollars and we still had a contract, and other protections in place for both of us. Iterestingly enough when I asked for these verifications and protections the reply I got from the person buying the product (It was a domain name purchase and transfer) was — “The fact you have asked for confirmation, verification and proof of my identifty actually makes me feel better because I now have the confidence you are a business person who acts respondsibly and carefully. It has brought some relief to me to know you asked for verification and a signed contract”
What a pleasure to do business with someone else who understands what contracts and protections are for and can do to strengthen a relationship between a customer and vendor.
I guess my point is buyer beware, know all expectations, and rights, from both sides before entering into any kind of transaction, and excercise any rights you have before those rights are removed due to time restrioctions or other contractural limitations.
i feel for the individual, it’s an expensive lesson to learn, but a contract between two parties is just that. Between the two parties and as such needs to be resolved by or between those two individuals. No one else is obligated legally or morally to become involved.
Of course it’s not your responsibility.
Buyers should always investigate the seller closely before purchase.
Rob
Hi there Eric,
Well, I did feel sorry for the man until I read through the PDF of letters. The incongruency between his actual financial state and the one he is telling everyone in the sales letter he now enjoys due to using the product that HE IS ENDORSING, I think is farcical !!! A case of the pot calling the kettle and this case the kettle (you) is innocent.
My solution: to placate the complainant and satisfy your conscience, I think I would offer him one of your products that you think may help his business for free. This way your outlay is nill to minimum, the complainant is or SHOULD feel satisfied and you will have done more than I think you are required to do.
May God Bless you with the perfect solution.
Robert.
Eric
You are not in the wrong and it’s not your fault, Sure You recommended him, but for work you had done for $197 which you were happy with. He should have checked up on his (the writers) previous work himself to double check and not pay the full amount up front.
Let the buyer beware! This is the rule in England so no you are not responsible. I like probably many online businesses have been “conned” “ripped off” and defrauded to the tune of many thousands of pounds. That was and is my problem and where fraud has happened have sought redress sometimes with success but mostly without. Online business like any other demands that before you invest your money you take precautions to see that you will get value for money. No precautions means lost money.
Hi Eric, So sorry you are dealing with this. I also live by the “Golden Rule” and my conscience always tells me what’s right. I definitely do not believe you are responsible for reimbursing this past customer. Like you said, you had a positive experience with the third party and recommended him in good faith. It was up to this customer to do “due diligence” in researching anyone he chose to do business with. I feel sorry for your customer because he was obviously ripped off, but I believe his proper recourse is to file a small claims suit against the vendor to reclaim his money from him. Hope that helps! Take Care.
you gave rec. because you had good experiance with him but i feel you might help with trying to help get his money back even if its not your fault
Well,it really does not seem to difficult.
By recommending, you are endorcing.
That being said it would perhaps be more productive to offer that person any resources
you may have at your disposal(little or no cost) to help in accomplishing what they were paying to have created.
With such an act,many will belive agin.Belive someone out there is honest and belives in what they say.In the e-world where you can’t
trust many.I know this guy ERIC,you can trust him!
That’s what they’ll be saying!
That’s how I would like everyone 2 view me and my biz.@The KING of VALUE.
In the end,
THE MORE WE HELP OTHERS,THE MORE MONEY WE MAKE
Very eager to know what you dicide.
Do keep us all informed.
Sorry to add this after my first post, but recently (and I get this asked of me almost weekly) to make a recommendation of a IM product.
I replied that I do not make recommendation of a Yes and No nature. Meaning I may give my own personal views of a product, but I always stipulate it is my opinion only and what they do is their own decision.
And when I told him this, I specifical stated I do not say yes do it or don’t do it because I learned a long time ago I do not know what is best or not best for anyone except myself, and I do not want to shoulder the respondsibility that someone may come back to me and say — “But you told me to….”
Being in a position that yeilds power and can sway others is one that I feel should always be taken very seriously, and always from the eyes of the person with whom I am involved and giving information to.
Just wanted to put that out there.
You are not responsible. What I mean by this is there is no legal responsibility. However, I can empathize from both points of view. He feels, If not for your recommendation/direction he would not have pursued this contact. On the other hand, you did provide the contact based on good faith and your own experience and know that customer satisfaction is very important.
Maybe you feel you have a moral responsibility to your customer for his loss! Not so much because you were misleading, likely more so because the customer did not receive the services he was promised.
Ultimately it is the customer who has to provide due diligence regardless of the recommendation.
Unless I misread the PDF it seems unclear just what was agreed upon.
Who sends that kind of money without a clearly written contract for services?
The refund should come from the vendor. Do we really need to have a disclaimer for everything!
As a good faith gesture, why not offer to provide him with the use of your copywriter.
I rely on your recommendations as well but I research other options as well before making a decision.
I agree that the customer should have searched online to find out additional information about the copywriter.
Going by one person’s recommendation, even someone like Eric, should have not been the final decision maker for the customer.
I’ve paid out hundreds of dollars for a product that I haven’t gone through with, so who’s fault is that? Mine. If I didn’t want to spend all that money and not apply it, then I shouldn’t have spent it.
I trying to think of an analogy to apply to this, and the best at this time of the morning I can give is like being introduced to a person (male or female) and finally marrying that person. Subsequently, the relationship deteriorate and they blame the person who introduced them both? How can they do that?
I don’t think Eric is to blame at all in this, from a ethically or morally ground.
Brian
Oprah endorses bunch of products on each and every show. What if some of these products didn’t work for an individual? Should Oprah refund that individual’s money? I don’t think so. So you should not refund that money.
The person’s obvious track is now a lawsuit against the copywriter (not you) as he has exhausted his other options. You are not liable, all you did was recommend someone you did business with who supplied a satisfactory service to you, hence the recommendation. I feel sorry for the person who lost the money but the loss was due to the failure of the person he contracted with, not with you. If you were liable, legally or ethically, nobody could recommend anyone again without having an insurance policy against incidents like this. You didn’t even earn a commission, so you’re not party to the person you recommended in any any way.
scenario: my friend tells me to buy a product because it’s working wonders for her. I trust her and off I go to buy the product. The product is a disaster - it does not do for me what it did for my friend.
I say to my friend: Gee, you’re lucky that product worked for you, but it didn’t work for me. My friend says: Aw gee, I’m sorry it didn’t work for you. I say: Oh well, it’s okay, these things happen.
I go to the product manufacturer though, and complain the product didn’t work, and hope to get a refund. I certainly don’t ask my friend to refund me. If it was a very expensive product, I might not talk to her for a month or two, but I’ll get over it, because it wasn’t her fault it didn’t work for me. If she’s a really good friend, she might come with me to the manufacturer to explain how the product worked for her and not for me, and explain to the manufacturer she’s upset and even embarsassed that she promoted a product of theirs that worked for her, but not for her friend (me).
Eric, you are not responsible for this amount lost by one of your readers.
Hi Eric,
I realy feel that you are not responsible. You made a recomendation to the product but not force him to buy it. Yes i also acted on some adverts, to my regret, but afterall it is me that pushed the button for going ahead to buy the product. I feel that the seller of the product is liable for the refund and not the affiliate. Better would be if the owner of the product could step in and help this guy sorting the problem. This is quite an eye opener!
Christelle
I Eric thanks for your leadership. I don’t know if your reading this. You are not responsible but, I think because of being in the position of leadership and building relationships in this business that you should see if you could help him get what he wanted a sale’s page. I beleive that down the road that good can only come from this because you don’t find people that are willing to help someone if they are not getting something. I think helping people in this way is the next level in this business that no one has tapped. People beleive in you and trust you, I know I do.
Making a buying decision that turns out badly is regretable and costly… I for one have lost money, I could ill afford! We are all grown ups we known “crap” happens! I do not judge an affiliate who acted in good faith,as been to blame… so long as once they are aware of a problem they stop promoting and issue a warning! It is a just a simple fact that the risks offline are with us all online and mistakes are made, and we grow and learn with them!
I made a comment earlier, and want to add one more thing.
The customer has exhausted all of his possibilities for getting their money back and now they want Eric to pick up the “refund” tab. Perhaps they should have looked at what they should do sooner.
Brian
Hi Eric,
what a dilemma.
Its unfortunate that you, who is well known for your high standard of ethics in marketing,
should fall into this.
Recommending someone who turned out to be not so honourable.
I believe you would be liable to give him your commission, but you didnt receive any.
Your customer did not practice due diligence.
I would never pay someone $1300 straight up with no prior history, no matter who recommended them.
He should have started with a small job to test quality etc,
then make arrangement for partial payments on such an amount as this.With at least 50% held till final delivery.
If supplier doesnt do this, there are many freelance services to go to.
Unfortunately I would be seething for blood if I got scammed for that much!
How about posting to forums about this guy,
find out how many people he has adversely affected, and try and put him out of business.
I recently got scammed for $97.00 by a well known 2nd level marketer, who failed to deliver product as specified, I raised a paypal dispute, which vehemently denied, and promised tom make everything right, a quick flurry of positive emails for 2 days, then nothing, no communication.
If this was local business you could at least go and knock on his door and sort it out,
But over the internet, operating in different countries, marketers have to work extra hard to create credibility.
ON the same hand, customers should practise due diligence in doing business with peoiple they dont know well.
In your situation, you have no obligation,
however, as a semi successful ( or completely successful!!)
marketer, if your guy is really hurting financially from this loss, perhaps you could help him set up a little affiliate site and coach himn to make his money back.
Therefore you give some of your time, and possibly your resources, but no out of pocket cash.
Your guy gets to learn more about IM, and makes good his loss.
You can feel good about your ethics and know full well that you have done far more than any
moral stance would dictate.
But really, your guy is to blame for his loss,
as bad as he feels, never pay ourtsurces 100% upfront, unless you know the person and have worked with them on many projects before
Goodluck to the both of you.
And may the scammer read this posts too and burn!
I do not think you should pay him any money at all. If you want to help morally then maybe you
could use your influence to have Cole refund his money or a at least a part of it. From what I read on the pdf file it wasn’t even stated up front what Dragutin even wanted other than a sales letter. Maybe just giving him some education on how to do due diligence would help him. NO MONEY from YOU.
Its not your problem eric,migraines can hit at anytime,any of us can go down in performance for a million reasons.
The copywriter should plead a bad week and offer to do some first class writing to double the value of the guys loss in compensation,obviously he is a capable writer because you found it of an acceptable standard and im sure you are a good critic of copy and we all have our off times, so i think the copywriter deserves a chance to prove how skilled he really is and everybody wins.
Let’s take a real example of the same thing… I’m an internet marketer (run a real-world SEM agency)… I work quite a bit with developers and startups, and as such have alot of opportunity to recommend developers to business owners & vice versa.
I recently had a 6 figure deal go down, where the startup co. felt that deliverables weren’t given etc., forced them to redo the whole thing from scratch, and look for a second round of financing to get the project done.
Luckily, the guy I did the recommendation to had done his own due diligence first, on top of my long experience with the guy.
There’s absolutely no way that I can be held responsible for that. Think about liability issues both legal and ethical, if we had to back each of our opinions and experience up with empirical evidence????
Part of running a business is taking a risk. Sometimes it’s a big risk, getting 3rd party recommendations mitigates some of it, but at the end of the day, you gotta grow up, and eat some of the problems to take responsibility for the other successes….
As much as I feel for the guy I don`t think you are liable. You acted in good faith because you were satisfied with the work this copywrited did for you. The buyer should also be aware. Following someones recommendation without doing your own research is always dangerous. The seller should resolve this if he cares about his business at all. He is getting some really bad press here and the story will spread like wildfire. I do however think that the ethical side of this should make for an interesting discussion. We all know that there are lots of people out there recommending any product. I always find these review sites interesting. A lot of them seem to make recommendations on the size of the commisssion and not necessarily the product itself. Is that an honest approach?
as much as I hate losing money ( and as someone trying to make money online I have lost some) It’s everyone’s responsibility to check things out even if someone your trust has recommended the service. And anyone who pays that kind of money up front without first requiring at least a portion of the finished work is just plain naive. I realize that it goes both ways. Vendors providing their services and getting burned by consumers who don’t pay up, but still if my neighbor recommends a contractor who did a good job on their home & I hire them & they don’t do the same quality work on my house I don’t hold my neighbor responsible. As much as we all feel for this man and his lost $1344 that’s just one of the risks we all take doing any kind of business and if you can’t get a refund and it costs too much to pursue legally, you just have to write it off as a business loss.
Eric, I agree with you that you are not responsible for Dragutin’s dilemma. I am really surprised that he paid that sum of money up front (didn’t pass the smell test). If he contacts the police in the area where the copywriter lives, he likely could file a complaint for theft by fraud, or if the communication was by E-mail, wire fraud. Those are felonies and may serve as leverage to get him some restitution.
Do I think that you legally owe Dragutin anything for relying on your recommendation? No way. If you feel at all that you want to soothe his misery, perhaps you might send him one of your E-books or programs gratis as a token of sympathy for his situation, not as an admittance of any wrong-doing on your part.
Hi Eric,
In your own debate with yourself you have clearly established no guilt on either legal or moral grounds, you are left with the grounds for compassion. He still has his problem: a good salesletter. You are not obliged to provide this but with your expertise it would not be a huge task for you to fill this need or if not yourself you could pull in a favour from one of your army of wellwishers and associates. The result of such an action should be,
1) You would be totally vindicated in everyones eyes,
2) You would also feel good about it,
3) The guy would get his money value restored, 4) Hopefully he will make extra money as a result of the excellent copy,
5) He should become a lifelong raving fan of yours
6)We will all smile.
With Best Wishes to you for all your good work
Don
There is only one logical conclusion: FILE A FORMAL COMPLAINT WITH THE POLICE
If he took your money and did not deliver the product, it is clear fraud. File a complaint with the police if possible.
People on the internet think they can get away with anything. I don’t know if there’s much the police may be able to do. But considering that he has a paypal account - he is very trackable and getting behind the bars will teach him a lesson.
I too am a freelancer and as it happens freelancers often get behind on projects or not even be able to finish. But in that case you cannot keep the money and run with it. Esp for a high amount over $1500.
————–
I once got cheated of a large sum when buying a proxy website too. The guy had artificially inflated the traffic from cheap-paid-traffic and the traffic stopped almost immediately after I bought it.
I complained to paypal but nothing happend. In fact he knew that there was nothing paypal would do - and as soon as he received the complaint - he himself escalated the issue to a dispute and was instantly resolved off the matter.
I now wish I would have filed a complaint against him. If I were in the US, I would have FOR SURE. No doubt about it. It made me mad for days that he got away with it and there’s absolutely nothing I could do.
Well the legal standpoint is clear = Not Liable
The compassion standpoint = You don’t have to …but you could.
Though this would be bad business practice for sure if you did.
Question = Would it hurt you financially to pay this guy and who would know if you did?
Well you’d would just lose one subscriber or listener if you didn’t, is this an issue for you?
Conclusion
Thanks Eric For bringing this problem to our attention. I really didn’t consider that it could happen, as I only recommend stuff that I have tried myself as well. If I used product X and it worked for me, but it didn’t work for my customer. I wouldn’t feel obliged to make a refund either, but if I could I might.
Its a conscience thing Eric and only you can make the call.
Addendum (and useless comment):
Not that it really matters, but you have prolly lost him either way I think.
Eric you are not legally responsible for the actions of a merchant as an affiliate. But yes the victim feels betrayed by your recommendations. A situation of peace and good morals can only be created by you refunding the amount. If i was in your shoes and have the money requested i would carry the burden of scam and bury it in my past by forwarding the amount to the victim.
Hi Eric,
I am grateful for your honesty, transparency and the efforts you have made to raise this matter in the open.
After all I very much appreciate the comments from many people whose life path crossed with yours and to some extent mine too.
Opinions will vary but one thing is in common:
It resonates the magnitude of respect for you as a person and a professional.
There are only few people out there who are willing to help,listen,express gratitude,educate and leave the legacy.You are definitely one of them.
Eric you are not liable for my misfortunes.The onus is on Nicholas Cole and his consciousness.
I leave you all with a proverb:”Be humble for you are made of earth. Be noble for you are made of stars”
Wishing you all abundance in health and prosperity.
Kind regards
Dragutin
Eric,
What a dilemma you have here. In my opinion I feel from a legal standpoint you owe this person nothing as you promoted their product in good faith and had no control of the outcome in the bargaining of these third parties. However as being an ethical marketer I would suggest this from a justice side of the argument paying him anything from your pocket justice would not be served. From the ethical and compassionate area it’s a whole new ball game. If I were in your shoes I think I would offer this person 50% of his losses. The reason why is you actually did endorse this person. I think morally and ethically you will feel you have done the right thing. If he can somehow recover the other 50% from this person he was scammed by perhaps with even some help from you. I feel justice would be served as well. If nothing else I feel you would have offered the very best possible solution to your readers nightmare…
Like most people we have all been scammed and that is very sad. However, when it comes to purchasing services it would be wise for us to request the service provider to do a free or $10 sample in order that we may evaluate whether or not we engage them. Test out three providers as least by giving them a small job to do of say 400 words each (setting out the parameters, etc.)and then make a decision as to who will be doing the work. If they are not prepared to do a free or $10 sample copy for you, then do not engage them. It may be long winded, however a safeguard is better than tears, and we have all had the experience of tears.
Regarding Paypal - I have had excellent interactions with paypal who have just refunded without question on fraulent behaviour, and very quickly indeed, for this I have been most grateful. Yes, it was within the given time scale, although I did not know that timescales existed, etc. at that moment.
Now on to Eric’s situation, even though Eric feels obligated to an extent with regards the recommending of the copywriter he is not responsible for the agreement or actions between the two parties. However, a free ebook or something would ease the way a little for the purchaser and knotched up as a lesson learnt for us all, prayerfully.
I do feel sorry for purchaser - however, he is going to make much more money than this if he persistes and should put the loss down to sleep and move on.
Stella
I too have been ripped off by the copy writer.. I hired him as I am not a very good copywriter my self but the sales letter I got was aweful, would he rewrite it.. of course not.. luckily for me I got annoyed quickly and got on the phone with my credit card company explained what had happened and they issued a charge back.
Its not your fault the the copy writer does good work for big names in the industry then rips off the rest of us.. NOT your fault at all.
I say do not offer any money but offer to get all your readers in the same boat together and file a class action suit against the copy writer. Include yourself for pain and suffering.
Pat
Eric,
As an addition to some cash compensation maybe you could write some copy for him. This may be just what the Doctor ordered and perhaps better than what any cash compensation could provide. I think all would be settled satisfactorily. You could feel good about helping someone out. This reader would be happy because he would have what he really wanted in the first place. The e marketing world would not have to go through another rules change from all the alphabet agencies and all would be well…
Bringing in justice and morals and ethics obscure the fact that the reader is, I assume, an adult who is responsible for his/her choices. That the recommendation comes from you is not a release from responsibility and the consequences of his/her decisions. You can commiserate but under no circumstances are you obliged to compensate.
Tom
Eric, i shall share a real case that actually happened in singapore a few years ago. It was a sad case that resulted in the death of a woman and serious illness of a few others. The death resulted after the woman had consumed some weight loss pills that had severelly damaged her liver. Another woman survive after a successful liver transplant. To cut the long story short. The court verdict - manufacturer was found guilty of the product quality, the imported (distributor) was liable because it was determined that due diligence and prudency were absent. He was evetually slappned with a fine by the court and sued by the injured and deceased family
Hi Eric,
I see the majority of the people are on your side.It wasn’t your fault that the writer did
a bad job for Dragutin.
It is also morally wrong for you to make the refund out of your own pocket either.
What you can do is meet the writer you recommended
and try to settle the matter peacefully.
This poor guy Dragutin really needs your help
now.
Good luck,
Wong
it’s not your fault Eric. You just recommended the person because he did a good job for you, if he fails to deliver to other person you’re responsible for it.
IMO if you didn’t recieve compensation, you’re not liablity… technically. In this case it’s more about you, rather than him. It’s an opportunity to change your business model that may just take you to the next level. When I build a business system I build in my own set of financial punishments/incentives into the system so it becomes self-policing. For example, if possible I will stay at the Hilton Hotel chains because their policy is to “refund your money if they did ANYTHING wrong.” When you come to make a claim at checkout they will try to negotiate but if you stick to your guns you will get a full, relatively cheerful refund.
If you feel you dropped the ball even slightly, then decide how much you should lose to teach you a lesson to be more vigilant. If Hilton’s model will bankrupt you, then you have some questions to ask yourself.
Eric,
In my opinion, opening this situation up for discussion with your List is a lesson in Marketing in and of itself.
Personally, I have gained more from watching and studying your actual methodology and practice than any recommendation you have ever made. In my humble opinion, any recommendation which is offered with compensation requires vetting by the person who decides to purchase a product or service. Especially a Service because it is open for subjective human error and unreasonable expectations from both parties in question which offers only disappointment and disagreement. A Product is less likely to backfire on an Affiliate because it is more of a cut and dry transaction.
Legally, Morally or even Ethically you are in the clear… and with as much value as You offer us (Your List) on a Daily basis, simply through the execution of your business model and method, I think a refund is a silly notion. There is no quick and easy, lemon squeeze solution, product or spiel that beats sweat equity and elbow grease.
Thanks for another great lesson in Marketing 101.
Eric, You are not responsible for that. But I Agree with Lawton Howell said, While no legal liability may exist, your character and reputation could be impacted way beyond this incident. So Instead of discussion who’s right or wrong, I suggest you give this guy not a “fish” ($1344 is a big chunk) but give him the way how to recoup his “$1344 lost money”. I believe it can help him feeling better.
Dear Eric,
From a business point of view Eric, I do not see a need to compensate him but, since you recommended him and this man has abdicated the need for his own checking, and depended on you known Christian integrity and decency, I would consider paying him , perhaps not the full amount but an amount you could happily agree upon. If a man asks you to walk a mile , walk two. Better for you to have a loss than for there to be any slur against your excellent Christian name Eric. I think the Lord would rapidly make it up to you somehow. May be this man is going thru a very tight time and has been burnt one to many times before. Blessed are the mercifull for they shall see God, from memory seems to be coming to mind. Remember also the incidence when Peter defended his master and said to the tax collector, words to the effect, Sure my master pays the tax- he’s a good guy!, when in fact Jesus had walked straight past the tax table. When Peter arrived at the house Jesus prevented Peter from entering and asked him a question.Peter quickly replied that the aliens pay the tax, and Jesus added, “Then the children of the kingdom are free, but lest they be offended, since you’ve put your foot in it, go and cast in your line and the first fish will supply you the coin with which to pay for both, the important thing with the Lord was lest they be offended. Jesus knew the tax was not His obligation but His consideration was for the offended tax collector whom Peter had given erronious information to, - a bit like you don’t you feel? I wonder what is going on with this unreliable copywriter???? Ask the Lord. Is he deliberately causing mischief for you? Best wishes Eric.
I also think that the customer should have searched online to find out additional information about the copywriter - even if there was a smaller amount of money implied! And also I think you have to consider ALWAYS the date where the recommendation was made - it is a service and not a product(which remain always the same product). A service quality could change in time. So - my opinion is that you are not at all responsible for the lost money of this person.
I like very much what you are doing - and also this topic you bring here I think is very valuable for all that are implied in internet business. Thank you.
Hi Eric, On reading both stories, I want to say this. Your recommendations were honest based on the work done for you on your satisfaction. However, that is just it, recommandations, the judgement is on the person taking or rejecting it. I had a similiar incident on the repair of my car for a secondhand part replacement, where the mac did inform me that there is no garaunteed although did recommand the part.The part however did not work properly. Although I accepted his recommendation the risk was soley mine. The same situation applies here although you made a recommandation on good faith, you cannot see the workmanship made to others by same person. Therefore it is not your fault and payment should not be paid.
Recommending service offered by a person can only hold water as of that time. As anything can happen to person socially or economically as the character of a human being is not constant but has potential for both good and evil. However, a customer making a decision is their sole responsibility and they should understand business i.e. any business not just internet biz has potential risks or profits. If they lose after exhausting all avenues then they should place it on the balance sheet next to bad and doubtful debts.
In as much as we use social media, one should know internet marketing is a business like any other and is not personal.
If I pay a consultant to help design a road map for my business (online or offline) if it fails should the consultant (person/firm) bear the burden of my losses? Of course not.
If the customer who was swindled is looking to raise some more capital for his business let him/ her probably with the help of Eric create a fundraising page where we can contribute to get him back on his feet.
Any monetary help to the customer should be compassion based and not out of obligation
just a thought
Dear Eric,
Based on your explanations above, I do believe you acted/decided correctly based on several standpoints, legal, moral/ethics, compassion/understanding, etc. I did see your earlier recommendation on the copywriter based on your good experience with him at the time then the warning not to go with it anymore because the copywriter didn’t live up to his promise with the others as he did with you, so came your warning. What was the circumstances the copywriter was into why he didn’t live up to the expectation? But whatever it is, there should be no excuse of not delivering, more especially if the product/service is already being endorsed by respected IMers like you. Anyone can’t afford to under-deliver. I do believe that successful long-lasting internet marketing is based on honesty and truth like what you’re doing.
Eric, you’re not responsible to pay for the product in question. However, I think there is a moral obligation to pursue the matter with the copywriter, whom I consider him “dead in his business” if he doesn’t come out and redeem himself from this.
Of course you’re not responsible! At the end of the day it was the readers choice to take your recommendation without researching it thoroughly for himself. You cannot be held responsible for someone elses laziness in my opinion, you are not out to run your readers businesses for them. No offence intended to the reader, but if we all acted on everything which was recommended to us without taking the time to research whether it is the right way to go for us personally we would all be £1000s out of pocket.
Similarly to what other readers have written, if, for example, I recommended a restaurant to a friend because I had had an amazing experience there, but she went and got food poisoning, I would not expect her to come banging on my door to be compensated for her meal and medical costs!
If you recommended him in full knowledge that he was going to act unprofessionally then that would be a different story. However you acted in good faith and if you refrained from recommending people or products you found worked well, just in case they didnt work for someone else, we may all be missing out on opportunities!
We all need to take responsibility for the decisions we make. I am sure said reader would feel differently if things were the other way around!
Hi Eric.
I don’t think you are legally nor moraly responsible to refund this person.
Your reccomendation was NOT to him alone. If everyone that saw your reccomendation want some form of refund from you, you will be bankcrupt in a few minutes if you decide to refund those people.
Now, since I followed your lessons for a long time now, you have become a trusted person in my eyes. However even by endorsements you cannot be held liable for those people’s actions to others.
If you still feel in some way responsible, you may think about giving him only a percentage of the amount he is asking from you. The percentage I will leave up yo you.
I do hope this will help you in you decision making.
Have a super day to you and your family.
You are not responsible. You’re only responsibility is for transactions between you and another person. You have no responsibility for the actions of another person in a transaction to which you are not a party. Your recommendation was honest, even if other people might disagree. You could not control the terms of the agreement between those two parties. Why should you be responsible because he decided to overpay or pay up front.
Hi Eric, you used the copywriter and were satisfied with his service and you passed on your thoughts with all good intention. The fact that the copywriter failed to give good service to somebody else is unfortunate, but not your fault. You have absolutely no obligation to provide recompense for somebody elses’ shortcomings. Best regards Alfred.
While you may feel morally responsible I cannot see any reason why you should be the one compensating a person for dealing with somebody else.
If this were the case, all recommendations of any kind, by anybody, could be disastrous financially. Movie critics, restaurant critics, tons of review websites, and much more.
“Word of mouth” is known as the best advertising a person or business could have. Becoming responsible, financially, for that “word of mouth”, would be a free world disaster.
No, you are not responsible. $1344 paid up front! No way would I ever pay that to an unknown (recommendation or not) … trust is a 2 way street. A person is responsible for their own business transactions. Anybody who has been in this business for any decent length of time has experienced some disappointment along the way.
I’ve been in the IM business for 20 years and have had my fair share of disappointments - such is the nature of dealing with the unknown, the digital entity, the decision to trust that the stranger I am dealing with is what they say they are and can do what they say they can do; but I did not blame somebody else for my lack of action to ensure a satisfactory transaction.
Live and learn. Let him licks his wounds and move forward with an new entrepreneurial experience.
Eric..
This has more layers to it than meets the eye. I hope you don’t mind if I lift the curtain a little bit here as I see it.
1. You obviously are pretty miffed at Mr. C., that you have been put in this position, and while you don’t think you are responsible for the refund (correct), you are trying to help the customer and future potential customers out .. with this thread, as a warning despite….
2. You may or may not realize that you’ve opened yourself up potentially to Mr. C. who could claim you are casting aspersions on him publicly. This was bold of you, admirable that you took that risk on behalf of your readership.
3. You are stimulating excellent, productive discussion, creating stronger bonds with your
“Eric’s Tips” readers.
Good stuff
Todd
Lol Eric
I typed out a massive reply to you and previewed it did some edits went to save and then seemed internet crashed
Oh well - cut a long story short
I think you are not resposible ethically morally etc.
I was impressed that you went to all this trouble and in my eyes it adds immensely to your credibility.
Having said that if you are in a position to and maybe want to go the extra mile (I know its a pain)
You could offer maybe something up to the sum of… (maybe even some one to one tuition?) _ I only mention that because if I was in his position if that was done for me I know I’d be really happy!
Anyway keep doing what you are doing for the rest of us please!
PS If you are still not sure - try this - decide on two outcomes - flip a coin - if the outcome is one you are totally happy with and at peace about then go with that if not you know the other!!
Hope this helps
Kind regards
Ken
Eric,
Two years ago I paid $400 to a guy who never wrote the report he was supposed to. Bad souvenir.
The guy had a testimonial from a very respectable IM guru on his site. When I got back to this guru with my story he said : “oh you know, I wrote this testimonial long ago…”
I think you are not responsible but at the same time, you have a responsability when you make a recommendation to your readers and your clients.
I can remember how frustrated I was and how alone I felt when this thing happened. Maybe you should do something for your reader. You should not ignore him and let him alone with his problem
I think that you should not pay the refund but it would play on my mind so I would offer to get the work done for him as you will have many contacts in your internet marketing world and it would not hurt your pocket to much to resolve it.
Eric,
If I understand your comments the FTC modified the rules after your event. So in my opinion you have the old rules to follow. In addition not all companies belong the the BBB and that does not mean they have a problem but maybe a shortage of money. Unless I missed it you did not indicate in your disclosure that you are not liable for actions of affiliates acting on your belief of good performance. Receiving no payment for your recommendation show honest advice. It is my believe that you are not liable even though you may feel a moral obligation.
Walter
Hi Eric,
I am sorry that an honest person yourself have found yourself in this position but at the same time, I think its high time marketers who endorse other marketers start learning lessons from this. I once paid for a software that was meant to generate money on autopilot but was so disappointed with it that within 3 days of buying it I asked for a refund, and you guessed it, there was no support and were not willing to refund my money although he had promised 60 days money back guaranteed, so I contacted the marketer who forwarded this scum to me and asked them to contact them for me for refund, and immediately they did that, I got my refund back.
My question is, are you able to contact this person and let him know what position he has put you through and that you are being asked to refund money that you had no dealings with?
I am just hoping he might respond to you rather the person asking for refund to keep his dignity if he has any to keep.
What everyone should learn from this never endorse a product unless you have actually used yourself and it is exactly as it says in the box otherwise you will find yourself in this same position again. These days I delete any marketer who is selling to me because I very well know they have not actually tried the product, the fact that I am on their list, they just bombard me with other people’s offers and that is disgusting. The funny thing is, you can receive offers of one product from several of the so called gurus and that’s when you run and not look back. I should stress although, always do your own research of the product before buying.
I put a page on all my blogs that states I have affiliate relationships that offer various products and services. If I can I try and evaluate those products and services before recommending them but I still believe that the responsibility for anything offered lies with the supplier. Different people have different expectations so whether they will be satisfied with what they get is down to their personal perspective. On that basis if you make a recommendation that they follow then it is up to them to ensure they get what they want and if they don’t they need to take that up with the supplier not the reviewer. Amazon put reviews on many of their products but never heard of anyone going to the reviewer asking for their money back.
Bottom line is they are responsible for their own actions and purchases.
Point 1. The answer is NO full stop …and you are not liable for any transactions involving a recommended and or promoted 3rd Party, as harsh as this may seem.
Point 2. Is that the individual concerned should continue to pursue the vendor for some form of mutual compensation - which can be agreed upon, if at all possible?
By the way Eric, on a happier note your lessons are GREAT! We may have much to discuss in the near future upon completion of your lessons.
In addition, I have NO problems whatsoever, recommending your lessons in the future and beyond…
All the very best
Jonathan
If a friend was looking for a new (fill in the blank here) - I’ll say a curling iron, and you said “Hey I got one last week at Target, and I love it. Heats up really fast!” and they go buy one, but the one they pick up is defective - how could that be your fault? The sizing is wrong (big conglomerate, small item) but the principle is the same. You did nothing wrong.
But since you seem to want to help the guy out, maybe there is something you could do rather than give him the money. Maybe you know of another copywriter that maybe owes you a favor? Maybe you know of a lawyer who just might like to take on something like this for free or for cheap? Maybe there is an indirect way you could help that would ease your conscience without setting a precedence for other IMers who make a recommendation.
Eric,
I agree with the consensus, and I don’t think you’re responsible to refund the money this person spent. I think we all have to take personal responsibility for the choices we make and the people we work with, regardless of the recommendation source.
With that said, I love the idea of offering to help by personally providing a portion of the sales letter work he’s looking for, with clear boundaries around revision(s).
You seem to have a great heart and you’re definitely a “good dubie” among IMers.
Thanks for the high value you provide, all the time.
Best,
Kate
(P.S. I have a policy of paying only 50% up front with a clearly written scope of what’s to be delivered. The remaining upon delivery.)
Hi Eric,
You were not a party to the transaction and therefore in my opinion, you are not liable and should not give this man the money. Before he forked over the money he should have had a signed agreement stating what each party would be responsible for, including deadlines, and how much would be paid for such services.
Hope this helps.
Debi Konnerth
Are you liable? I would say NO. What is the ethical thing to do? Do you have morals or principals by which you Eric, live by in life? If you don’t tell the guy to go screw himself, and all of the rest of us, your faithful, will probably jump on his bandwagon. YOU promoted it Eric, PONY up, pay the guy the bucks. It’s not like you can’t afford it. YOU….go after the copywriter….YOU….make sure he never works again…..YOU….see to it he starves to death….if you have MORALS and PRINCIPALS, something you may want to teach your kids. I always thought it was BS the way you “guru’s” promote everyone else’s crap just to get your own shit on their website. And then when it backfires it’s “do you, my readers, think I’m liable”? You won’t pay him Eric, you know why? Your a “guru WEASEL” out to make every buck you can, no matter who gets stepped on. Have a Wonderful life!!
Let me first state that only legal action resulting in a decision by a court should be the ultimate decisive factor. However, all of us give referrals/recommendations for services and/or products that we have had a good experience, either with a person, a product, a particular company. Ex. Carpet cleaner, restaurant, copy writer, plumber, fence company, dog sitter, etc. as the list is endless. It’s impossible to think everyone will have the great experience I had with whomever or whatever. I simply say I have used, eaten at, etc. and was pleased with the results. I do not give raving testimonials as I know things can happen or be experienced differently by someone else. Doctor’s refer you to a specialist everyday as an example. I do not believe anyone should be liable for referring/recommending unless they go way overboard to essentially give a personal guarantee of satisfaction, which of course would be a very ignorant and foolish action to take. If you recommended someone based on you satisfactory experience with no extravert guarantee there is NO WAY YOU ARE LIABLE in my opinion. If you are then we all are liable for any referral/recommendation we give to anyone which occurs often, probably millions of times per hour on this planet. You are a caring and compassionate person and I can understand your feelings, but Eric your just another person who had a good experience and made a referral. God Bless you for your concern.
Eric, You are not legally or “morally” or “ethically” liable to refund the money to the claimant.
There’s big difference between a pure recommendation (which is really nothing more than a testimonial) and a recommendation which is actually an inducement or misrepresentation made carelessly or with intent to induce someone to do something which leads to a loss that could have been (or was) foreseen.
Regards, Stephen Strydom
In my opinion the most important intervening element between your recommendation & the purchase was the point at which the buyer actually made an independent decision to buy from this fool. No matter what “s..t happens”
Personally, if I were going to be spending that kind of money, I would have researched a few different copywriters before deciding who to give the work to. I currently write distance learning Accounts and Payroll courses for various colleges and do some copywriting of brochures, articles, advertisements etc. I never invoice a client until the work is done and signed off to the client’s satisfaction, I never take up-front fees unless there is a specific expense attached to the work (such as publishers fees or similar).
It’s like any other business transaction, you may have to pay a retainer fee or a small percentage of upfront royalties, but in most cases you will not pay the full amount due, if anything at all, until the work is completed to your satisfaction.
Having studied UK business and contract law, where there is a recommendation or endorsement of another party this relationship is only recognised where commissions or some other form of benefit exchanges hands, in the form of finders fees or similar.
Where a recommendation is made ‘in good faith’ but no benefits for such arise from it, then the party making the recommendation has no liability for the standards of work of the recommendee.
Perhaps US contract law is different from UK law, but for the most part; it’s common sense really.
If my neighbour told me I should hire a specific plumber to fix my bath tap and it turned out that the plumber didn’t know a bath tap from a stop-cock, I wouldn’t be able to recoup my money from neighbour because she recommended him. I might have a slight chance of getting some of my money back if she’d taken a back-hander from the plumber to recommend him but the most likely scenario would be that I would have to keep pursuing the plumber himself and I’d no longer trust my neighbour’s recommendations.
I don’t know how contract law works in the US but, while I feel sorry for the reader in question; it isn’t just or right to pursue someone who has not benefitted in any way from your transactions with a third party.
When you are endorsing someone’s work, you are saying that the person did a good job for you and you were happy to part with your cash for the job done. That’s all you are saying, you are not vouching for all of that person’s standard of work and ethics.
Before parting with any large sum of money, you need to be sure you are getting the best for your cash.
When it comes to copywriters, you should ask to see some of their published work and you should always retain some of the fee at least until the final piece of work is what you want (assuming you have been asked for an upfront fee, but this should be negotiated before the work is commissioned).
It is no fun losing money under any circumstances but you cannot hold someone else liable just because they made a recommendation ‘in good faith’; this is trying to take the easy option because you are having trouble getting recompense from the offending party; that is not justice, it’s ‘passing the buck’.
My thinking on the matter is as follows:
Firstly, from a legal and moral point of view,
you are not responsible(as all agree).
Secondly,if you decided to accede to the request for payment from a Christian and compassionate stand point,it would have been wiser to do this privately to avoid others cashing in on your generosity.
At any rate, if you paid the$1344(is there proof?), it would appear like the acknowledgement of guilt on your part. This cannot be as we are not responsible for the choices of others, being free moral agents.
Eric you are not liable for this loss. We all should do our own due diligence before we purchase any product or service and not buy just on a referral. We need to remember: what one persons finds as acceptable may not be acceptable to another person.
Your reader should use other means to obtain a refund… not from you. You are not liable.
Eric, you can’t be responsible for the effort or lack of by another IMer. I understand your position I would also feel badly. I suggest you contact the IMer and tell him your feelings on this subject, that you have taken away your recommendation of him, and you feel that he should make good.
The buyer should not have paid his entire fee in advance of receiving the end product. have you seen the product? Is it bad? There are always two sides to every story.
Nan
Eric: The fact that you have spent this amount of time on this (in my opinion) unfounded claim speaks well of your sense of fairness and your business ethics.
However, if you were to pay him, out of a sense of empathy, you are not doing him or any other affiliate any favors. By paying him, you are enabling his desire to throw this off on someone else, and not take personal responsibility; and if you paid, you are potentially setting a legal precedent that affects all affiliates across the internet.
Sometimes we get “taken”, and from that we learn lessons. This is a lesson for all of us on both sides of this issue. Over $1,300 is a big lesson for this guy - and for most people, but it’s not your responsibility. It’s between him and the copywriter.
The legal issue is what was in the original contract between the two of them. And, I doubt, if there was one, that it included the fact that the affiliate was responsible for the inactions of the parties. That is the other lesson: have a clear contract up front. And for affiliates, it might be necessary to have a written “disclaimer” of sorts attached to the affiliate recommendations that says you are recommending based on your previous experience and you are not responsible for the future actions of the parties. Sounds COLD, but in this case, it could stop this kind of action toward you as an affiliate.
We strive to live in a business world of trust and compassion and sometimes the business world hasn’t caught up with our evolution!
We must all continue to strive for that goal in spite of these interferences. Good luck to you.
pls ia m not geting any thing writh pls can you help me out.okekejoshua@rocketmail.com
pls mail me so i can get a rite imformation.
thanks
mr joshua
eric, the value of what you’ve shared for us will speak of what were your true intentions,
newbie like me, keep coming back here for to gained knowledge inside & outside. though, I feel the same way on him since I have been
scammed too. Now, the more I fall on my knees, the more courageous I get up and move forward.
I believe that, chair is never been made inside the courtroom for you to be judge…coz the truth is your are not responsible for this.
Eric, i think your customer is barking up the wrong tree. Your recommendation was based on your experience with the copy writer and was offered free of charge. If he did not receive the same level of satisfaction from the man in question surely his objection should be with him not you. i drive a Ford, if in speaking to a friend or even a customer i should say that i think Fords are great cars and he should try one and then he does and thinks they stink, i doubt i would reimburse him for his purchase! I think in this case it would have to be an instance of personal choice to follow an opinion or advice, your customer didn’t have to go for help to that particular person, he chose to, it wasn’t part of some package you sold him.
It seems to me that people are too quick to blame and not take responsibility for their own choices. Did you arrange or mediate the arrangement your customer made with the third party? No it was his choice to part with the money without first verifying he was getting value. i do not think that in any legal or moral sense you owe him. But then Eric you have so far proven to be a nice guy and the mere fact that you are asking our opinions and are taking all this time to consider your course of action speaks well of you.
regards
Max
Legally, you do not appear to be responsible. The recommendation seems to have been made in good faith and was based upon your personal experience. Furthermore, you mentioned you did not receive anything of value in exchange for the referral.
From a perspective or responsibility, however, I understand how you feel. It is commendable that you are questioning the ethics of this unfortunate occurrence. What I believe I would do in this case, is make every effort to assist the buyer in getting the copywriter to take responsibility for his actions. He knows what he did is incorrect and should make amends. The FINANCIAL responsibility is his.
For your part, I would also include a statement in future recommendations clarifying that while your experience with a vendor has been positive, the buyer (caveat emptor!) should perform his own due diligence.
Best of luck to you in resolving this in the best interest of all parties.
You are not liable! First of all, it was just a recommendation. Secondly, it was based on a positive experience with the recommended party. Finally, recommendation translated is it worked for me so it might work for you. We have seen the quality of Toyota take a big hit as of late. How many Toyota drivers have recommended that make? Should they be liable? Eric, it’s not your fault this guy didn’t perform do diligence. My recommendation is a big heaping helping of tough love. He is probably already a better IMer because of this situation. I’m willing to bet this won’t happen to him again.
I do not believe that you should pay any refund.
I agree completely with your careful and well thought out analysis of the legal and ethical issues involved.
I agree that if you had been paid a commission, you would be ethically, but probably not legally, responsible to refund the commission actually received.
In the absence of being paid a commission, your endorsement was by no means a guarantee. We are normally not in a position to guarantee the work of independent businesses.
Therefore, unless we explicitly state a guarantee, our only potential liability would stem from failure to disclose the fact that we are being compensated for the referral.
If the deal had taken place before the new FTC guidelines went into effect, you would still be ethically responsible if you had failed to disclose your financial interest as an affiliate, but not otherwise.
If you refer someone now that the new FTC guidelines are in effect, and you follow the guidelines, you would still not be legally or ethically responsible for the customer’s loss.
If I understood the situation correctly, this customer contracted for the work based on a previous recommendation that you had already retracted at the time. Here, the issue gets a little fuzzy.
On the one hand, it’s not reasonable to assume that someone reads every issue of your newsletter, so customer cannot be considered responsible for his failure to discover that you no longer recommend the copywriter.
That said, your 2009 recommendation never rose to the level of a guarantee, so you are still not responsible for the customer’s loss.
The take-home message is that it is necessary to reveal any potential compensation for a recommendation.
Hi Eric,
First of all THANK YOU for All Your Eric’s Tips.
Regarding your Moral Dilemma:
1) Your Endorsement was Based on your Success with a $197 interchange not a $1344 transaction.
2) Personally if I felt compelled to rectify this situation by compensation. I would limit my my compensation to $197 Plus any Advice to Help the individual get the balance back from the Copywriter who didn’t keep his part of the bargain.
Thanks Again,
Bernie D
Hi Eric,
Here’s something a little different from what most are saying.
Whilst on voluntary missionary service in a third-world country for several years it was recommended that I use an experienced property investor and accountant to oversee our modest house as a rental. The overseeing was done at no cost to us, and we appreciated that.
Both the recommender, and the expert did very well from their own portfolios while we were overseas - but various circumstances that we were unaware of led to the loss of our house whilst in the ‘care’ of the expert.
Should we have sought reparation or compensation from the expert? What about the person who recommended the expert?
No, I can only blame myself for not being more diligent - even whilst on mission service overseas.
However, and here’s my point) if that expert - or the one who recommended him - had helped us out, with even a modest gift (or loan) at the critical time we would be twenty years ahead of where we are now. We would be forever in his debt, not financially, but in our gratitude. (Plus we could have easily paid him back eventually.)
I don’t think you are liable in a legal sense, but what if Dragutin felt that the $1400 was an acceptable risk, based ENTIRELY on your reputation and your recommendation? (In hindsight that would have been foolish, but your reputation IS that you’re a man of integrity! So one should presume that your recommendations were sound too.)
The money may be relatively little to you (perhaps) but could be relatively large to Dragutin (who knows?).
But regardless, there are some principles I try to live by, that I think you also subscribe to, such as:
“Always treat others as you would like them to treat you.”
“Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.”
“And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.”
If you were to gift the amount to Dragutin… well the ‘real’ outcome might be much more significant than you could ever predict.
Worth considering maybe…
Hi Eric,
You are one of the very, very few persons on the Internet, that I truly respect, admire and trust, for your high moral standard, business ethics and your compassion. And I am for ever one of your subscribers.
I will give two different occasions here, where I’ve personally acted upon your recommendations:
1. I bought one of your OWN products, which is a first class product, but being a newbie, this was way too advanced for my level of understanding IM. I realized that I had made a mistake ordering this.
After explaining my situation to you, a refund was paid promptly and with courtesy. Thank You for that!
2. A business opportunity you recommended, in one of your emails, turned out to be both expensive and a great disappointment.
When I, too late, looked up this company at Warrior.com I found several complains stated there.
And I realized, I should have checked BEFORE ordering and paying the product, (which had to be in advance) The company/vendor did not have a customer refund security agreement with Paypal, but after several emails, and threatening to file official complaints, I did get a full refund.
It never ever crossed my mind, to ask you for a refund for an unsatisfactory product, even if it was on your recommendation, that I trusted and acted upon. It is my responsibility, to be aware of what I am buying, no one else’s. A great lesson learned on my part.
My conclusion:
You are in NO way responsible for this incident, not legally nor morally. You have acted in good faith, recommended upon your personal experience. But you should let Cole know, that his behaviour reflects back to you and that is NOT acceptable. The rest is between Cole and Dragutin.
If you choose to help Dragutin, it should be with some advice, NOT money out of your own pocket.
But having a compassionate spirit in a harsh world, as you truly have, Eric, let your heart decide.
God Bless!
Helen
Eric,
I been following your series for sometime now. I love most of what you have to say. I find your lessons very useful.
I do however realize your recommendations involve many factors when deciding who/wait to recommended and who/what not to reccomend. When I bought the e-book cover program you reccomended, I spent 3 days looking at what others had to say about it. I realize it was a small investment but I had felt better knowing what product would and would not do.
He is a copywriter but not the only 1. The reader is responsible for hiring him. You didn’t hire him. You are not responible.
He could have been checked out better. A simple google search on his name revealed so much about the guy.
If you want to do something for the reader, offer to write $1384 of sales copy but do not refund the money, as I feel that will lead to more requests for refunds of other things you recommended it. You told us how they have worked for you and how you have used them. However, we are the one respoible for how we spend our money! It is my fault if I get burned.
God Bless,
Nic.
Eric, my first thought was that his lack of due diligence is not your issue. While I might recommend someone for a job, I can’t guarantee they’ll do the job correctly. People change, their priorities change.
I’d hold you responsible for the product you sold but would only follow specific provider recommendations IF I could verify their credibility. Their questionable credibility may cause me to question your judgment but it’s the individuals decision whom they finally hire.
Not doing one’s due diligence can become an expensive lesson of ‘The Cost Of Doing Business’.
On a side note, would he have paid you a thank you bonus had this panned out for him and took off beyond his expectations? Some how I’m doubting it.
I had to take a day to absorb this blog because it is one of those sad examples of buyer beware. Here’s the thing, as web bloggers/domain owners we all post the names and/or businesses that help us. Sometimes for a discount, other times just because we are impressed and we know everyone needs all the publicity they can get. We provide these references of a job well done, the same as we would do if someone did a great job repairing our home.
Trust needs to be earned. We are all careful shoppers, and satisfaction comes from being a careful consumer, even if recommended by a friend (and no offense, but you are not a friend - you are a guy I have never met who gives decent advice and perspectives). At the same time, who pays a contractor so much upfront. Common sense needs to take a step here and you need to negotiate and offer percentage payments as the job progresses. These percentages should be based on how much has been done and how much it would cost you to continue the work elsewhere. Never trust a contractor who charges you for all parts before the job is started, unless the parts and receipt will be sitting in your home.
Let’s assume that I say I love my new pc from x company and you decide to buy 10 for your business or invest money in the stock of x company. Next month it is announced that the pc processor blows up on hot days and costs a fortune to replace. You knew as much as I did at the time but you could have also done a bit more research or diversified your spending until you were satisfied with your own testing experience.
In the end, the Customer IS always right if you want continued business from them, but you were not the vendor here and you really have no integrity to lose. I am not being rude. The fact is you are a blogger, and like so many thousand people out there, you have an opinion. If the doctor said to me “Rudy, you are going to die in a week”, I’d get a second opinion. If I wrote a term paper and only used a reference from Wiki that said “Meteor showers are the major cause of Global Warming.”, people would think I was an idiot. It is the job of a consumer (including a consumer of information) to fully investigate and test, before making a decision.
At best, you could reach out to the vendor and copy the requestor of your effort in doing so. Additionally everyone impacted should reach out to the BBB (Better Business Bureau). Hopefully this could be resolved, but don’t feel responsible if it is not.
To the victim, I offer my sympathy, but I would recommend you go to the police with proof of your transactions. In some states anything over $1000 may be considered Grand Larceny if certain requirements are met. Unfortunately, as hard a lesson as this is, it happens more often than not. Be more careful in the future. I hope you get your money back.
Since you made it clear on your website that I you no longer recommend that copywriter, so it seems to be unfair demand from that guy Dragutin.
You are not responsible and I don’t know why the person in place makes his complaint to you. I believe that everything you do in what kind of business it me be, it’s totally your own responsibility. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Although I know how it feels when someone is cheating you. I’ve been there too. But that doesn’t mean that somebody else has to pay.
I think that your listening to this guy was the only thing you could do.
While I agree with some of your other readers comments that you are not responsible for this copywriter’s performance, you probably should have initiated a warning that you are not responsible for the copywriter’s work, opinion and/or performance. Also, unless you have had recent communication with the copywriter, I would try to convince him to maybe give back some money. If you cannot reach the copywriter, then I would post a negative comment on your website and/or the bbb.org website.
Dear Eric, After reading the whole blog, and the first couple of comments, I rather agree with Dave, that legally you have no responsibility to this woebegone man, who really should have checked with the BBB.com before paying for the services of someone he didn’t know, no matter who suggested he gave good or timely service for his pay. I would feel just a bad for this person as you obviousely do. He was treated very unfairly all around by everyone BUT, YOU! You are very correct about setting a bad precedent for others if you pay him back anything. As hard as it may sound, we all have to take some personal responsibility for each of our decisions, and actions. Sometimes it may feel better to point a finger at someone else and say it’s all their fault! But, we both know that just isn’t always so! Sometimes the “Buck has to Stop Here, with ourselves” Several of our Presidents said this , but only one actually meant it. In this age of personal responsibility, that is how we all must think of our own decisions, The Buck Stops with Us! That is the predicament that man unfortunately finds himself in. He sees himself as being between a rock and two hard places. so you look like the easiest one to get something out of. I’m very sorry for the man and the predicament he finds himself in. But, you do not owe him anything. You’ve certainly done all you could to be honest and ethical. Don’t blame yourself for what he did to himself.
hi eric
i believe your endorsement of the copywriter was correct because you used his services and received a fair product for the money. it is unfortunate that this person got scammed from the copy writer,however, it falls on his shoulders if he fully prepaid before delivery of the product. i do not believe you are the responsible party for this transaction gone bad it is a problem between the copywriter and the customer. i would definately pull my endorsement immediately from said copywriter if that is how he is going to run his business. caveat emptor- let the buyer beware. if i were the person who got scammed i would not expect a refund from a party that endorsed them,but i would immediately contact the endorser and let him/her know about the problems encountered. if i were the endorser i would try to help out the person scammed but i do not believe that i should refund out of my own pocket,especially since there was no commission involved. it is a very bad situation to be in, we have all probably been there at least once in our life. you just have to pick up the pieces and go on with life.
Looks like you have your answer. We all get ripped off from time to time and we can’t blame anyone but the party directly involved. I for one wish that more marketers had the transparence that you are showing.
Eric,
Your reader should have done his own due diligence before hiring the copyrighter. Your recommendation should have only served as the impetus for him to begin investigating the copyrighter. That was his failure, and you can not be held accountable for that.
As for the ethical thing to do - you are right in your assessment; had you received a commission, it would be ethical to return that commission to the customer. In addition, you have already done the right thing and removed your endorsement of this copyrighter.
If you still feel somehow responsible for this, you could attempt to call in a favor and ask another copyrighter friend of yours to do the work pro bono - but that’s a big favor, and in my opinion, not necessary.
From reading the emails, this entire project was handled in a very unprofessional manner - even from the customer’s side. There were plenty of chances for the customer to stop this… and I would NEVER pay that sort of money up front. There are plenty of escrow services to utilize for that.
Bottom line - you’re in the clear in my book!
Hi Eric,
Of course, you aren’t liable for this Dragotin’s unhappy situation.You mustn’t refund him for someone else’s product.
You aren’t part of their transaction (Dragotin and Nicolas Cole).You only made a recommendation on a product that you have suiccessfully used before.You don’t know the transaction between the two guys.Just because you recommended something you should not be held liable.
In conclusion,you are not legally liable to refund Dragotin or another your suibscriber if they didn’t purchased any yours product.
Also you are not morally bound to pay.
Dragotin have to complain to his copyriter.
Now I’m afraid you’ll delay or abandon your lessons to us.
For example I already created and uploaded my first squeeze page and I want to get traffic to my squeeze page.Therefore I do am waiting your lessons about getting traffic.
So sorry you are dealing with this
Now I know why I just use my credit card. There are risks there with letting out that info but they have always refunded me when the product supplier did not give me what I paid for. Lesson learned!
Split it with him you win and he wins good public relations
This is a very touchy situation. Hows this one. My brother-in-law is a car dealer and a very good one. I have bought used cars from him a couple times for me and my daughters. However I usually stay away from recommending him because he is family. But my best friend was looking for a car asked if I new an honest car dealer. Reluctantly after numerous requests I recommended my brother-in-laws dealership. Well you can guess what happened. After a few months the used car he bought ( he didn’t buy an extended warranty) started to have real expensive problems. The heat and ridicule I received from him & my brother-in-law was to much. I would suggest that recommending anyone is really a dangerous thing. But in your case I don’t think your at fault or liable he should have checked him out before paying that kind of money up front. He’s not much of a businessman to make that business 101 mistake.
Not liable. Don’t pay.
Eric you are not responsible to refund the money. But if you have some in the attic, send it my way. Your testimonial was based on your personal experience.
Eric, you are not liable because the endorsement was given based on the quality of the services you had received from the copywriter…which at the time of your relationship were ok by all commercial standards. Moreover you were not receiving any commision as a result of the endorsement…you were only going the extra mile giving guidance to somebody who could benefit from your experience on outsourcing those tasks at which we are not experts…In spite all the compassion and understanding That one can have for the situation of the customer there is not justice if you pay for something that at the end is his responsability and he should learn that some risk are inherent to making money as internet marketers…The sooner we learn the lesson the better…
Eric, you are not responsible. You have not promoted this copywriter blindly but instead with your first hand experience where you received a good value for the money you paid. You have made the recommendation in good faith that the copywriter would provide similar value for other customers. However, no one have control of what service this copywriter or any other affiliate will provide to others costumers. Therefore, before using any services the idea is to do our own DD before and try negotiate to pay in instalments as the job is progressing. I fill sorry for the person in loss because I have been victim in many scams online and off line in the past and I know what is like. There is no one to blem not even our self we learn the lesson and need to move forward with life with the knowledge not to do the same mistake again.
Eric, I have folowed your blogs because of your stated faith and beliefs. I believe you to be honest in what you say and do. You did not make a recomendation based on present or future financial gain and everyone knows that. Both of these individals are at fault, one for bad business practice, the other for failure to communcate and deliver the product as expected by the customer.
Bill Richardson wrote “From reading the emails, this entire project was handled in a very unprofessional manner - even from the customer’s side. There were plenty of chances for the customer to stop this… and I would NEVER pay that sort of money up front. There are plenty of escrow services to utilize for that.”
All of us have made decisions that effected our lives in various ways. We must learn from them, correct the problem, and then move on.
Do you need our opinion on this, NO. You have already done the right ting.
Eric,
In my opinion You are not legally or morally responsible to that person to refund his money. You had a good experience with the copywriter and gave a recommendation based on your experience.
The reader should have done some research and sought out additional recommendations and reviews by others about the services offered, before making a decision to contact the service provider and making a contract for services.
Eric, I’m not even going to bother to read your ‘defense’ or the other comments in this post. You owe the customer nothing. We are all ultimately responsible for your actions and need to carry out due dilligence. There are so many resources on the internet to vet a company or individuals its not funny. When Oprah recommends a book, its up to you to decide on whether or not you take her up on the recommendation. Remember James Frey? Did Oprah refund all those people who bought his book which turned out to be a lie??
(I apologize if someone may have mentioned this already). Dude, your conscience should be clear. You do a great job!
Eric, I’m not even going to bother to read your ‘defense’ or the other comments in this post. You owe the customer nothing. We are all ultimately responsible for OUR actions and need to carry out due dilligence. There are so many resources on the internet to vet a company or individuals its not funny. When Oprah recommends a book, its up to you to decide on whether or not you take her up on the recommendation. Remember James Frey? Did Oprah refund all those people who bought his book which turned out to be a lie??
(I apologize if someone may have mentioned this already). Dude, your conscience should be clear. You do a great job!
That’s also what I wanted to say to Eric, but I couldn’t do it as concisely and clearly as Chris just did. Thanks Chris for helping out.
If I am going to pay that amount of money, I will consult more than one person for references. You gave your opinion from your experience. That should not have been enough. If at least 3 people said the same thing, then maybe. I like to think that I would do more research. In the end, it would be my choice, not yours.
No, I don’t think you are responsible for his problems.
Eric, I agree with most of your subscribers. You do not owe anyone anything when you recommend anything. You are not responsible for that supplier or clients morals and business conduct.
You do a great job and very honest and up front about your business and who you are.
Keep up the great work.
Hi Eric.
It was not your false. I believe you didn’t push your reader to buy the product so I think it’s not your responsible to refund but if you do that, you do such a good thing & your readers will trust you more & happy to have business with you. Only few good people willing to do that and you are one of them.
God bless you and yours.
Thanks
thanks
Eric,
Law can be a funny thing, good or bad, but I think you should have checked out the guy further before recommending him, because you sent me an email about a product you claimed worked for you and I bought into into it for $497. you know the traffic business one, well anyway many complaints on it and I will never do business with brett ever again, and I have filed a complaint with the crime complaint center on these people, and I was disapointed in the site with testimonies that are not mine and all generated by the developers.needless to say, I don’t think you should be responsible for the refund, he needs to turn it over to the crime complaint center.
I don’t believe marketers anymore, I check them out thouroughly now because I have been ripped off where I hired a guy to so a website years ago and he took half the payment and I never got the site or my money back, and paypal could not get my money back, even though they agreed he ripped me off.
Good luck in this situation, and go by what you heart tells you.
Can you make an effort to help him to earn that amount?
No in my opinion you are not liable. In good faith (is intangible commodity). Also, you were satisfied with his writeup. No 2 people’s perspective are the same.What I mean here is that you liked his work, and the gentleman in question was not happy with his work..that’s all
Eric,
I have been studying internet marketing now for about two years. I have found that most internet marketers are basic honest about what they say to customers. But their are some that would just about do or say anything to get your money. It is truly reprehensible what some of these marketers do to others. But I believe that you have been honest in your recommending this person, but the person does not take the same moral ground that you do, therefore, I really do not think that you own the person anything. I really feel bad for this person, because I have been were he is, lucky, not for as much, but been there and done that. But it takes courage to be honest with people and let your customers decide that if you pay or not. I can say that I have great respect for what you are doing. Take care and enjoy and be prosperous…
Eric,
Mr. Dragutin (and all of your subscribers) have received far more than $1344.00 value for all that you have taught and made available through this series.
It is a shame that he is out of pocket now - quite an expensive lesson to learn, yet still something that he may claim as a business loss so he may recoup part of it.
If his business had increased 20% as a result of him using a service/tool recommended by you would he then feel obligated to pass part of that increase on to you?
Your dilemma, as I see it is that if you pay the money to him out of your empathy for his setback you fear setting a precedent that will open yourself and many others to a flood of similar ‘frivolous’ requests. Yet we must,all of us, take our lives on a case by case basis. What you decide to do here may or may not impact my business in the future, but that will be my choice to make at the time.
What options are available to you to create a win/win situation here? What will feel right in your heart? No matter what any of us think or say it is your face reflected back from your mirror. Your own honor is what matters most.
Perhaps you could cover this in a future lesson — ways that we might check out a potential resource before investing and perhaps guidelines about how much to invest and professional procedures (Is is standard to pay so much up front? What is considered timely delivery? etc)
True most of your subscribers are new to Internet Marketing and most of us take your recommendations without question — this can be a wake up call for us!
My (spiritual) guru tells me “check everything out to your own satisfaction — even what I tell you. If it works for you use it, if it doesn’t work have the wit to let go of it and find something else.”
So far any of your recommendations I have followed have paid off exactly as advertised but I still will not invest money I cannot afford to lose.
God Bless you in resolving this dilemma.
Karen Elizabeth
If Eric pays this person then the next person that has a problem is he suppose to pay them as well? I mean come on now! Why did this person wait 45 days anyway before saying anything? If was paying that much money for something I sure wouldn’t be wait 45 days to complain….. Also, how do you know this person isn’t just pulling a fast one????
I agree with Tony. First off you are not legally or ethically obligated to pay him ANY refund. You cannot control how he does business with anyone. And, like Tony said, this could open a huge flood gate….pandora’s box.
You acted ethically and professionally. But I like that you brought this out for discussion. interesting stuff…
Dear Eric,
Legally you are not responsible, however many will no longer accept any product or person you recommend as a solid source. They will see all training that pushes a product as a means to get affiliate commissions. If they decide to purchase a product they will go around the affiliate link or purchase a competing product. Once a product is mentioned a google search will identify a home page and many marketers are now producing their own products to get around that. You promised this a guy a product and instead of refunding him the money complete the transaction, give him a finished product hopefully at a lower cost than the refund and leave it at that.
Eric,
First of all, I would like to explain that I love your videos. I have l earned a lot from you. I am a big fan of yours. You have a lot of visible and seem to be very knowledgeable and know what you are doing. I also am aware and I think most of your subscribers might be aware that you are a Christian which in my opinion gives you even more credibility. So when someone reads a recommendation from you about someone being reliable, we take it to heart. From what I understood, he hired this copywriter before the retraction was made, so in my opinion I really think it would only fair for you to give him his money back because he hired him solely on your recommendation before the retraction was made so he did this before he had any knowledge of his not being reliable. I think it was not intentional on your part and it was an honest mistake but e is still out the money on your recommendation.
Hi Eric,
I say that in no way are you responsible to pay a refund. It is up to each person to do their own due diligence. He should not have paid the money up front - maybe a percentage - but not that much without receiving value for money. Logic says you start off with a small project and see if the work meets your standards. Everyone is different, so what suited you may not have suited this person. You are not responsible for another person’s poor business practice…nor for a change in the conduct of the copywriter.
Hi Eric,
I agree 100% with what Hilary says.
At least one of your other readers suggested that he can write off the expense against tax.
I suggest that he write off the experience as a life experience and move on.
I suggest that he write a formal postal registered letter to this copywriter as well.
I suggest that he write a postal formal letter to his credit card company and another postal formal letter to Paypal. No need for them to know that the other organisation is also getting a letter. They may do something.
Each of the letters needs to say clearly what will resolve the issue for him using as few words as possible.
I would suggest that after the letters are posted, that he move on to his next project.
I recall that in one of your early lessons, you advise people not to spend money until a few things are ironed out.
Kind Regards,
David
Eric,
There may be room for a win win situation here. You offer copywriting services? Can’t you create or get access to someone who can create a sales letter for this guy? And if not, find someone willing to do it and use it as a great sales tool. As you’ve mentioned, you don’t owe money and it wouldn’t solve the problem. But I would imagine you could help the guy create a great sales letter. It would cost you some time, but not cash out of your pocket. That way, you’re a super ethical compassionate hero, which is great marketing for you and your businesses, and the guy who was wronged becomes an ally, raving about how honest and ethical you are, and how you took care of him, which wouldn’t just be hype, but truth, the best type of marketing there is.
I wish the internet service business would allow for “try before you buy”, but that is not always the case.
As with most of us, we have used vendors at someone’s recommendation that did not turn out very well. Bue there is some requirement for personal responsibility, not everyone perceives information the same.
You should always find out if there is some sort of quarantee given on their site before you buy. If there isn’t one, no matter who made the recommendation, it is “let the buyer beware”
Eric, I don’t wish to blast Dragutin, but he made a foolish mistake. I in the past have come across dishonest people on the web (surprised!). I have waited till day 58 and then disputed a charge from a dishonest marketer. I hope Dragutin has learned something from this unfortunate event. If Dragutin was unhappy with the service he received he should have stopped the payment as soon as he realized that he was getting scammed.
Let the buyer beware.
Eric,
I do not think you are liable to give a refund in this case, because you did not earn any commissions. I am curious…You have been in business for awhile…is this the first time someone has complained and asked you for compensation? If so, then you should look at this as an unfortunate situation…you recommended in good faith. It is a tuff one though, that I can see is emotional for you. I used to sell on ebay, & no matter how many full disclosures I listed, inevitable I would find that 1 person who would complain…and yes, that would bother me and I felt obligated for some type of compensation. I think this is a good learning experience for all of us & am glad that you have presented it to us. I look forward to your emails & think a lot of people have benefited from you advice!
I guess bottom line though, only you can decide what ultimately to do and hope all ends well.
Kathleen
Eric,
First of all, I am a fan of yours. With that said,you paid him $197.00 to write a sales letter? Red flag!!!
Anyone who would write a sales letter that cheaply must be crazy and should be avoided.
I’m a copywriter and blogger. Story time. You knew it was coming
After doing the AWAI thing (google it folks) I hired a copywriting coach on the recommendation of another copywriter who had taken his course. This coach is highly recommended and has testamonials from some heavy IM’s and master copywriters.
I wonder if they know he is a liar and scammer? After paying him more than $6,000 for the course, he finished it up and then disappeared. During the course, he answered emails when he felt like it. He did not live up to three parts of the contract. For example, he was unware that I kept in close contact with another student. When that student asked for our recordings of all the calls, he told him that all the recordings were sent out directly after the call and it was his fault if he didn’t recieve them due to a faulty computer/email system. Total B.S. Not one call was ever sent out and we never got the 10 plus calls that we did.
He had asked me just prior to the end of the course, to do a testamonial for him. After I called him on not living up to the contract and ignoring a number of emails, he kept the testamonial and changed my last name.
That is why I tell clients that testamonials are not your best source of determining a good copywriter or IM. Look at the actual work they have done. In the beginning when I thought testamonials were necessary, I would ask a client and they would tell me to write it myself and sign their name. I no longer use testamonials. I am willing to bet that a lot of the testamonials on my former coachs site are written by him.
I am an affiliate and when I promote products, I tell people, make sure you can get a refund and I either use the product myself or have knowledge that it is good. However this does not mean it is going to work for everyone. Buyer beware.
You do not owe him anything. You acted in good faith and he is out some money. He hired the copywriter and should have a contract which he can follow up with Paypal, the BBB and/or small claims court. Personally if I was him, I would just bury it and move on.
Regards,
James
p.s. Please no emails about spelling/grammer, I hammered this out of the top of my head and no I did not spellcheck it.:)
Hi Eric,
I haven’t read all of the comments only first few (5 or so) But I don’t think you are responible, to me you made the recomendation in good faith, you thought he was as good as his word but something happened.
Hugh
Dear Eric,
I had to admit I did not read all those comments/opinion made by our colleague. Reading all those comment just distort my thinking of GOOD & BAD. I mean before I read those messages coming from our friends out there, I had already this thing in my mind. Yes, I do agree if this is only a small amount of money, I would surely pay that guy but… but doing this things will only make others to be Fault Finder rather than Solution Finder. Your Fault is Not My Fault, so does Her Fault is Not their Fault. Take a look at this instances Eric. Sometimes during our eating session we sometimes bite our lips. Question is who is to blame for this matter? The person doing the eating? Or the teeth that do the biting? I am not well versed in English but I know somehow you get my point. We can only be held liable if we know from our heart that the person we recommend to others to do his/her job is not capable or fake. My Mistake is Not Eric Mistake or Fault nor my mistake is the readers mistake also. Anyway this kind of situation gives us more lesson to learned. We need to be more careful the next time we deal with people because real people are more harder to please than a fake one. Good day to all of our friends out there.
Joselito U. Mendoza
Cauayan City, Philippines
Hi Eric,
Thank you Eric, this email has now alerted me to this copywriter. Unfortunately, your posting on your website, as you mentioned in your situation with this unhappy member, would not have alerted me, as I do not go to it very often. I communicate with your business via your lessons. I will not be taking the risk of using this copywriter. Thanks for the heads up!
While I appreciate you using this business blog to hold an open forum, as it is the current, social marketing trend, I wonder, is it truly the best way to solve your problem?
I am having difficulty understanding the true situation, it’s underlying causes, and the compelling reasons of each party in this dispute.
Can you help me understand, so that I can try to help you Eric, as you have helped me so much. Is this really the best place to solve this problem?
You’re a smart guy Eric. You have chosen to use this brillant, business model and I assume you are making a lot of money from educating your audience and endorsing products and services,that help them, and hopefully make you a lot of money(as you should as you provide value) while building trust with your customers(as they travel down the marketing funnel)right? There are risks involved with this approach (the cost of doing business)rightly or wrongly.
Doesn’t it really boil down to your relationship with your member in question,who wants a refund, on a service provider you endorsed by mistake?
We all make mistakes,and people change, don’t beat yourself up about that.
This is a complex situation. There is NO EASY ANSWER where BOTH people in this negotiation EASILY win.
BUT BOTH PEOPLE CAN WIN, if you both work collaboratively, to get to a solution, to a problem, you both now have.
What do you have that he would want, that will truly help him with his business, and help you regain trust with him, and some of your audience,as you have exposed other members to this situation and people are watching to see what you decide by opening this situation to us.
Your decision will effect your brand either way. How can you protect and maybe, enhance, your brand while protecting yourself from further problems with him and others in the future? What would help him and not cost you anything?
What are both parties willing to give up and not give up, in this negotiation? How will this positively or negatively effect your brand? Could you both end up somewhere in the middle with a compromise?
Isn’t that where most negotiations that build trusting relationships, end up?
What happens to you if you lose this customer or if you lose customers from it? What is the long-term value of your member, and of your audience you may lose, as some people are clearly upset? Is this really worth your time? Only, you can answer this for sure.
In the end it is your business. You will need to calculate your return on invested time.
The truth may not always be easy, but it is always the right answer, whatever this may be in this case.
Can we truly help you both find that?
I hope I helped you a little.
You will always have my endorsement for what you have done for me regardless of your decision here.
Tom
PS. sorry for the long length is of this comment and any typos, I am having trouble with my keyboard.
Hi Eric, this copy writer needs to be brought to book,Mr Dragutin would be better to spend time doing this as many of us have had to do with bad payers or con men.iTS harsh but a business that has no experience of this is rare,it is a lesson in business for mr Dragutin, you cant blindly trust,you must do your homework, I feel sorry for mr Dragutin but there are always bad apples,we all get caught from time to time.I think you are not the person who should pay,Track him down.
If you made a contractual agreement with the copywriter - you can sue him, but at the same time you are responsible to the buyer. So if you are to be trusted in the future you may want to stipulate your recommendations with that old adage ‘buyer beware’.
I do not think you are responsible. I understand the customer paid a lot of money and no one likes to get ripped off. However, it can happen to the best of us and buyer beware. There could be many factors that you had absolutely no control over. As you say, when you made the recommendation you did so on actual experience and did not get compensated for making such a recommendation.
If I hire a caterer who does a good job for me and I recommend this caterer to a friend who is not happy at all, can she hold me legally or morally responsible? I can apologize and promise to never recommend this person again, but should i pay for her “ruined” dinner?
Short answer: The buyer is responsible.
Wow, there are already over 900 comments to this. I wonder if you have time to read it all? If you do, here is my argument: If people are going into this business to begin with they must take responsibility. Ads are ads, never trust any of it. It’s like a gamble, one should only bet what one is prepared to lose. You were not stating that he was 100% trustworthy, just that your experience was good!
Even if you don’t pay this person, your reputation won’t take a hit, because the way you talk and present your affairs shows integrity.
I see this claim as pure greed on behalf of the person who sent you this email.
If the letter had been great and he had earned a million from it, would he have shared some of that with you?
Of course not, i feel for the guy and 1300 is a huge chunk of cash. But if he has contacted the other people on the sales letter it is clear he didnt buy it on your recommendation alone.
The net is a scary place at times, especially when you are spending large amounts of money.
Maybe some good copywriter will step in and offer to help. But I don’t think you should have to pay the guy for something you made nothing on and had no direct responsibility for.
Eric
I have been in Commercial Real Estate as a Broker and Developer for 26 years and about a year ago I got into internet marketing.
As a Real Estate Broker in Texas we have to follow a strict set of ethics and are tested on the content.
You tested this man’s product and found it OK. On that basis you made an endorsement. I know when I send out an email for a property for sale I have since 1986 put a disclaimer on the email.
In my opinion I don’t think you are liable to refund the money as other posts have said you were not a party to the transaction. Ethically I don’t think you are liable either as you made the recommendation on the basis that you purchased his services and found his services to be adequate.
Hey, Eric,
No, you are not legally responsible for this unfortunate situation.
No, you are not morally responsible for giving anyone a refund because of this unfortunate situation.
Based on what you said (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), you made your recommendation in good faith, based on a good experience. Frankly, I wonder if this Cole person initially approached you because he had some idea of who you were and how many follow your advice–then made it his business to do well by you in the hope of getting exactly the recommendation that you gave. It seems like he may have set this whole scam up, starting with using you. No, that may not be the case; there may be a completely different reason why he seems to have done poorly by so many people…but I do wonder.
That said–and though I certainly understand the pain of being ripped off via the internet–you really do not owe it to Dragutin to cover his loss. Nicholas Cole owes him that refund, and no one else. And you owe Nicholas Cole (assuming that’s even his name) the honor of having his name and duplicity spread as far and wide through the IM world as is possible, so that his ability to steal from others is at least curtailed.
Thanks, though, Eric, for your willingness to put this question before your audience. THAT’S what I call dealing in good faith!
Hello Eric!
These kinds of things happen ALL of the time, as you know… You may or may not feel responsible for the actions of the copywriter, but that is part of this whole “Internet Thing.”
You cannot be responsible for the Copywriter’s misdeeds, however, you may have lost a loyal customer, because of this incident.
The customer is extremely angry, right now, and I would be too. Losing over $1000.00 is a BIG deal to some of us, who are trying to make this “Internet Thing” work… The customer should seek redress from someone other than you…
Ethically speaking, you did remove your endorsement of the copywriter, but what can you do? Things like this do happen, which is why I do NOT provide endorsements for anyone whom I don’t know, or for something that I have not personally used, recently…
With all that said, I have a question for you, that I have not had answered, yet. I sent it to you 3 different times, but I got no response… You asked for my opinion/assessment for your situation, now I would like a response to the email I sent you several times…
*******************************
Here’s the email I sent to you.
*******************************
Hello Eric!
I’ve been following your lessons for a while now, and I really think that you’re
one of the few “knowledgeable good-guys” on the Internet, today.
As a matter of fact, I even purchased the “Push Button System” and
the “Ecover Engine Software” programs from you.
The Ecover program is waaaaaaaay Kool, and extremely easy to use. I have created so
many Ecovers, that I can’t count them. I’ve had a ball creating and storing them,
so that they would be available to use them, when I got ready to sell my products.
Well…
I’m running into a little difficulty when I place the Ecovers on the html pages, that I
hope you can help me with.
Here’s the problem:
I create the images on a 400×400 (pxl) square, just as you explain in the Video tutorial,
then I select, make and save the “jpeg” Ecovers. Once I insert the images into an html page or just paste them into a MS Word document, they ALWAYS have a “Black Frame” or “Black Outline” on them.
Could you explain why that’s happening and how I can get rid of that “Black Framed” area?
I would really appreciate your help.
Thanks
Michael
P.S. Your Video Lessons are PRICELESS!!!
Hi Michael
There is not an outline on the jpg file, so it must be in your HTML formatting.
If it’s in a Word doc, you would need to right click the image and go into the image settings and turn the border off. In HTML, make sure there is border=”0″, and make sure there’s not one being set by a CSS file either.
In the future, please use the helpdesk, as I do not personally offer support via email and I have not seen any of your emails. With the helpdesk it is trackable, so you can always make sure we see your ticket and you can always see our response.
Hello Eric,
You pose an interesting situation; I have been a member of Erics Tips since the beginning. The way you approached giving away valuable information put you head and shoulders above the crowd and made you a trustworthy resource in my opinion. Of course I have never met you and have no idea how truly trustworthy you are. However, using my intuition I have purchased many products and services you have recommended. Few have worked out, but that has more to do with me than with you, sometimes the product or service just was not what I thought it was. I feel we each must take responsibility for our own actions, or inaction. I try to do due diligence before spending my money, but there is so much misinformation online that it is next to impossible to know what you’re getting. The bottom line is that I do trust you and what you endorse, but would never consider asking you to solve my problems. You don’t hold a gun to anyone’s head and tell them to “buy or else!”
Someone earlier in the postings suggested that perhaps you could write his copy for him. That may be an answer, but if you are compelled to DO SOMETHING to compensate this customer, might I suggest that you “edit” what has already been written, or if nothing has been written, you could look at Mr. Dragutin’s ideas and consult with him on what will or will not work on his site. How could he ask for more from you?
And of course I do not believe you are liable for the $1400. This whole situation smacks of needing more controls over selling and buying online. Sometimes we must be protected from OURSELVES!
i’m a newbie and a new subscriber, have lost a substantial amount on the internet due to my ignorance, i’ve wised up alot more, in my opinion i don’t believe you are responsible for any refund because of a recommendation.Internet Marketing to me is a world wide web of recommendation for goods and services.One needs to ‘Look before the Leap’.
Dear Eric,
Sorry, but I have to go against the grain on this one. “But for your recommendation” there would have been no business between the copywriter and your customer. Your recommendation was the causal factor, regardless of compensation, or lack thereof. A little background on me is in order here. Months ago I terminated all contact from internet marketers, except you. You are the only one who ever reaches my inbox any more. The simple reason is trust. I have always trusted and respected you and never once have had the feeling that you were trying to put your hand in my pocket. In business that is known as “good will”. Now, through the actions of another, it is your good will on the line. I can’t help but wonder at all these comments that say you should not pay when it was not their loss at your recommendation. Would they all still feel the same way ? I think not. Let your conscience be your guide. Is there a dollar amount affixed to your reputation ? I don’t think there is, I’ve been letting you into my inbox for a long time. It’s not about a legal obligation at this point. It’s about doing the right thing. I trust you will make the right decision, regardless of what your readers think or say. Another option for your consideration is this: ask the copywriter if he would prefer for you to ask all your affiliates, all your subscribers, all your business associates to pass the work about his failure to perform. All I have stated is based on the assumption that there was indeed an exchange of money, and a failure to perform. I have no way to verify either. Again, let your conscience be your guide. But for your recommendation, this would never have happened. I trust you will come to the right conclusion. Simply stated, I trust you.
As a brief addendum: One of your other responders nailed it. This is a PR Goldmine for you, and you may could even name your next product PR Goldmine. Look at how many say they would not pay and you should not pay. Look at the few who say step up and pay regardless of the legal obligation. It reminds me of the disparity in numbers of those who make it in Internet Marketing, and those who don’t. Here’s your chance to separate yourself from the rest of the pack. Reputation goes a long way in this business. Could even you afford to buy the word of mouth advertising this would bring you ? My thought is that it would be priceless. To your continued success.
Steve
If you were recommending someone whom you knew for certain was no good, there might be a weak case for vicarious liability/ negligent advice if someone was relying on your advice to such an extent that a court could find a duty of care, but you withdrew endorsement fairly soon after realising for certain that the person was not up to scratch. There was no obligation for you to remove endorsement immediately because you owed the person the benefit of a doubt.
I believe you are not responsible because you acted in good faith. The fact is you were pleased with the material you purchased from this copy writer which means your perception of good may be different from his. Also, I believe it’s better to test the product first before spending that much money.
ERIC
As I think you are not responsible for this , you are honest and trustworthy, It is the mistake of that person, you are giving us very good lessons, all we are benefited by lessons of you, but my request to you to give us a lesson about the scam in the onlineworld, give us valuable lession on that point, we first need to be well educated about the scam in the internet, actually on recommendation of you we all have started to do onlinebusiess, it is time to know deeply about the scam.Sujit
You are not responsible for this customer to refund money that you didn’t receive. He should have did his research & checked the copywriters credentials before he paid him or asked for examples of his work he did for other marketers.
HI Eric,
Life is a risky business is it not. People recommend products to me all the time, some are good and some are lousy. Life is a learning curve with the occasional hardball thrown in the mix, you just have to keep your head up and your eye on the ball. Can you imagine how nervous sales reps would be if everyone sued because of a recommendation…WOW!!! I think the sales industry would collapse, the law suits would total in the millions.
You`ve done noting wrong Eric…try not to lose any sleep over it I have confidence in your Professionalism.
P.S. Thank you for your support and God Bless.
I have to laugh at people who say you can afford it…like it’s the money that is the issue (it’s not) and just because your wealthy means you have some kind of respondsibility or moral obligation to help the guy.
A person whom earns their money has no obligation, just because they can afford it, to pay for something they are not respondsible for.
It’s like saying the wealthy can afford to buy me a new car because I am not wealthy and they are and doing so isn’t a big deal for them… yea they can afford it and a few grand for a car may be nothing to them, but that doesn’t mean I deserve a car or the wealthy have any obligation to provide for me…
such sentiments and statements are pure garbage…. and it’s sad that people have such twisted feeligns for people whom have earned their wealth…
Your right its one of the worst feelings that the pallet of human emotions can paint. Anger, frustration, regret, self-loathing… all rolled into one. The financial loss is the worst issue and the credit card company or paypal should be held responsible for this but paypal wont go beyond the minimum.
You don’t owe anything for recommending someone you thought could be trusted. But if you think you have any pull on the publisher, you might go to bat for the one who was short-changed. And that would only be out of the goodness of your heart, and might even help the dent that may have been put in your credibility. You owe no money to the one who was wronged by another.
Dwayne
hi eric,
the answer is no,you are not responsible and more over you need not pay.but having said that,i really do feel for the person who has lost the money.he has opted something which involves money and agreements based on a recommendation.this job is a tough one.if i were you,i would’ve given a compensation,if not the full amount for the sake of my image.
Hello Eric,
I have been a reader of yours for a long time now and can with all honestly say that you are among the few who really spend your personal time help others succeed in their on-line endeavors.
In my line of work I deal with many people everyday who are in some of the worst situations of their life. They are deep in debt and have either lost their jobs or have had some other problem that has caused them to fall behind on their payments.
Unfortunately a large number of the other debt settlement companies will knowingly tell people that they can help get them out of debt and take what little money they have left and end up leaving them in a worse situation.
They have no remorse for what they do and will continue to mislead people as long as they don’t take any initiative to verify what they are told.
This is why I always tell my clients that no matter what company they are considering to use that they must take the responsibility to do their own due diligence.
Just because you give a recommendation he should of taking more responsibility to double check before he handed over the full payment.
With that being said I am pretty sure that everyone has been in this situation before and it does suck. Eric is there anyway for you to talk with this copywriter? That is if you know him other than the one time you mentioned.
Everything aside I want to thank you for your teachings and best of luck. Hope you have a great Memorial Weekend and am looking forward to your next email.
Eric,
I believe that you should not pay for this gone-wrong copywriting project. Not only do you have no obligation - either legally or morally - but if you did make a payment, even in good faith, you would open up a can of worms that could impact all of internet marketing.
I hired a website designer to build an animated on-line membership site for me which, he said, would take him 6 weeks. I paid a deposit and one progress payment, but now he wants another payment of several thousand dollars to release the website. More than 6 months (and many emails) later, I am just about to sack this website designer as he has cost me half a year’s income. He has already said that he will not reimburse me any of the money I have paid him (he has spent it!)
If Eric were to pay Dragutin when it was Nicholas Cole who received the payment, then I should be able to claim back the money I paid the website designer from the seminar organisers from whose Joint Venture table I picked up his advertising leaflet.
Where would it end?
I did some due diligence when researching the website designer, and I should have listened when alarm bells rang when one of the testimonies apologised for nagging him to get her website completed. Gut feelings are so often the right way to go.
The up side for me from this whole experience is that in the time taken for the website designer to reach this (non) point, I have done so much training that I now know how to do this myself. And the training means that I will never have to pay for the process again. For Dragutin, there are some very very good copywriting programs available for much less than he paid the copywriter so that he could easily produce his own letters. (I should become a AF of my favourite, shouldn’t I?) Thank you, Eric, for the training and tips you have given us. They work!
Dear Eric
I didn’t bother to read your comments about…
Am I legally liable?
What is the right and ethical thing to do?
because you have lost the plot in posting this blog
You have nurtured relationships with people and you have accepted money as part of that relationship
Forget the legalities, may we please have some integrity. I don’t have some loophole guarantee for our work.
Last week a supplier did not perform for me and my client was not happy… I immediately discounted our invoice and fixed the problem… that’s the real world and that’s why internet marketers who do not understand that come and and go… and there are a lot of big names who will not last past the hype because their customer service is crap
I would say that you are not responsible, but there is a thing called LAW, a person can be totally right, and the LAW can come back and bite you in the butt and say wrong.
My opinion is, the LAW to day is not to protect the innocent, it is to protect the crooks and scammers.
Look at gray 1. Can YOU prove that you were not affiliated with him when you recommended him? 2. Another point, can you prove that this is not a scam to make fast money and write an E Book on how to make money doing this? There are a lot of ways that the laws can be used against you, and 3. I would get some legal advice just to be safe. Ether way good luck.
Hi Eric
The following thoughts are based on a situation where the person making the recommendation is NOT a paid affiliate.
I do not believe you have a legal obligation, unequivocally. Okay that part was easy.
A recommendation that is ‘qualified’ in the sense that it states it is “based on my experience …” or something of the sort is a recommendation made in good faith and bears no further obligation.
A recommenation that is blindly made without any real frame of reference (ie. not based on a personal experience) should bear some liability … when you know readers are relying what you say.
Certainly a flippant recommendation (one lacking reasonalbe care) should bear some liability … in cases where the one making it knows others will be making purchases based thereon (whether or not compensated for the recommendation).
Moral is to not make any recommedations without a disclaimer … not necessarily legalese, but one that states “based on my experience at the time” … as things can change (eg. a good copywriter can become a bad copywriter at a later time due to personal problems).
I appreciate you sharing this with us Eric, as we are all at one time or another faced with the decision to recommend or endorse.
NO Eric, you are not responsible. Everyone makes a referral based on his experience or that of another he trusts or values. Your experience was good with this person so you gave a reference. All responsibility ultimately is our own when we make any decision
Dear Eric,
My point of view there is no fault on yourside.
Because you have recommended to your readers in good faith after you satisfied for his work.
As per the rule he should have paid money only after receiving some sample works.i guess he has not done so..i know you since for many months & i have been benifitted from your valuble lessons.you are one such a honest & inteligent internet marketer. that’s why as soon as you received the compalint against that writer you immedietly removed his name and link in your recomentations list.besides you feel sorry for that bitter experience happened to your reader..you are not responsible in any way for other people actions.because you have no control on others actions.so, you can feel for the person but,no need to refund the money..
Hi Eric
Paying the guy = Open flood gates.
Not paying the guy = Feeling Guilty (but not liable).
Only solution = Possible mediation between both parties which would fulfil any obligation that you may feel you owe which = Win Win!
Any cash payment would result in a serious knock on effect. Rick (mindfocus)2nd reply
My experience - You are a very generous and giving person. You are very pursuasive and influential. You gained my trust. I purchased something you recommended. I was not happy. You owe me nothing. But now I do not trust your recommendations & will not purchase more.
Erio,
Of course you are not responsible for the mistakes made by this IM. This forum will have some impact on the Copywriter although he wouldnt be the first writer to use a psuedonym to solicit work. You are a strong and honest presence on the internet, I have enjoyed following your posts. This does however, show that someone wasnt paying attention to your words, pictures and screenshots. Being careful is a consistant message on your posts. This egrieved individual was following a standard path by employing a writer. He failed himself by gettting ahead of the situation and not being prudent. I know, the IM world is exciting and seemingly fast-paced. But any one of the successful marketers will tell you of tedious research, endless testing, and clear visiion. Seeing that you are not without resources in the industry, maybe you could offer to put this person in touch with another reliable group or writers collective the he may then do his due dilligence. Thanks for your transperancey.
Eric,
You will find you are neither the employer nor the employee of the copywriter and as such are not responsible for his actions.
Eric,
Yes, you are completely responsible… for yourself!
Question: you made a recommendation for a service and for this recommendation you are owed a commission by the seller. Since you weren’t paid by the seller, would you write the buyer asking for your affiliate commission?… Of course not!
This is silly and if you pay Dragutin I will lose respect for you! Sorry, but that’s the truth.
Do the right thing. Don’t empower the entitlement philosophy that is ever so prevalent today. It is not compassionate to help the butterfly out of its cocoon, to do so assures the butterfly of a very early death (not that they live so long anyway!).
Now, with all that said, be smart… make a personal rubric for defining what is a good product or service to affiliate yourself with and those not to represent… represent the useful, disregard that which is not…
Hi Eric, an unfortunate incident that the guy had with the copywriter. You are not resonsible, but you recommended him. Its a matter of ethics. Since you have posted this to all your clients and good followers, i would recommend refunding him.
If you are a millionaire, which you probably are, and this guy is broke, trying to set up a business, i think you should refunde him.
It will look very good on yur part to all of your clients and followers, i think you would benifit much more in the long run.
Personally, since you put this out there, i would give him refund if i had lots of cash from my business, its a tax write off anyways.
You should take care of it…….You are christian too aren’t you???
Seeya buddy, love your site and all your hard work.
Brad From toronto.
whoo, being a Christian has little to do with this, as a Christian there comes responsibility,& by giving this man a refund, it will open doors that I am sure Eric does not want opened…too many people
are greedy. Example some tenants think that because I’m a Christian, if they have an issue arise, I should waive their rent till they are back on their feet, sorry can’t do it…It is annoying with people throw Christianity in our face, but we deal with it… In an ideal world it would work just great…I am sure Eric will do the right thing. After all he walks the talk…
Hi Eric,
This is not your responsibility. Anybody who buys anything, whether it was recommended by an Internet marketer or otherwise, should do some research on his own to see what other people are saying about a particular product.
It’s unfortunate that this guy got ripped off, but he should have known better, it involves a lot of money.
Trevor
Hey Eric,
Thank you for your generosity and integrity.
You have already given us much more than any errant referral could cost.
An agent has professional responsibility for the outcome of a client. You are NOT an agent nor have you implied agency.
Your advice may not be perfect, but it’s excellent.
With due respect… the complaint comes from an entitled employee mentality who had no intentions of sharing his success with you.
Nice way to handle an issue.
Ken Ward :^)
Ashland OR
Hey Eric,
As i see it , this guy will not stop at anything to get a refund. You are on here to teach us what to do ,how to make a business work. You may have mention people on here ,but this guy could have gone to others,,you owe him nothing … i feel you have guided me .i am doing just fine .
take care
Frank
Hello Eric,
I believe that you made a recommendation in good faith to the fellow who was burned by the copywriter in question. You used the services of this copywriter and you paid for his services before you gave any recommendation as an affiliate. You did not profit from this transaction.
Therefore, everything that I have read in this post leads me to believe that you have met or exceeded the “standard of reasonable care” of anyone (be they a friend or an internet marketer) who makes an honest recommendation after having freely engaged in an “arms length” transaction and in doing so, gives a recommendation based on a good experience.
Your intent was not to profit by deception. Your intent was to provide value and to offer help for this community.
I have been studying and referring to your lessons closely from the outset and I noted exactly when you pulled your recommendation for the copywriter in question. I had considered using this copywriter’s services based on your recommendation but I never considered paying for any work up front to this person and it was in the process of doing my “due diligence” that I discovered that you had pulled your recommendation and was thankful for your customary high level of honestly and integrity.
If I had not done my due diligence or if I had not noted that you had pulled your recommendation for this copywriter and had been burned by him, I would in no way expect you to compensate me for my mistake. You are not responsible for my actions in ANY way whatsoever.
I have compassion for the fellow that was burned. I too, have been scammed in the past and I think it goes without saying that we all learn from our mistakes. You are a Christian with high values and also have compassion for this fellow, but I do not think that anything is served by making a refund to him. Everything that you have done is above reproach.
I think that you state it well at the beginning of this post when you write:
“Obviously this is not something that needed to be made public, but I am doing so because I think we can have a good constructive conversation. This is an important topic that affects all Internet marketers.”
Once again, I think that you have demonstrated your commitment and dedication to this community by going far and away above the call of duty by bringing this matter to a public light.
This is a serious topic that affects all of us as Internet Marketers and I had to think long and hard about my response for this was perhaps one of the most difficult posts that I have ever made.
I conclude by saying that in my opinion, your Lesson #43 (Legal Compliance) should never be underestimated for its importance as it addresses some of the most important and critical legal issues that our community faces every day. I humbly suggest that we all study and re-study this one on an ongoing basis, closely. Thank you Eric for all of your hard work and for that which is to come.
Hi Eric
No you are not responsible for somebodies business transactions,even if it was on your recommendation.To keep this short I will just hit on a couple of reasons,first,people change over night,I have seen it many times in business,a reliable person,suddenly gets in a divorce,has money,or drug problems,suddenly letting you and everyone else down, and maybe even ripping you off.The person saying you are liable,is a type of scammer,but smart enough to play you as Mr.perfect.Write a nice letter back telling him your only human,and you will still give out recommendations,to be used at your own risk.and forget him. Lindsey
No, Eric, I don’t think you’re liable in any way.
Your dealings with the copywriter were satisfactory enough for you to recommend him to your clients, but you’re not responsible for the later actions of the copywriter. As I see it there was communication with the Dragutin anyway so how can he claim he received “nothing”. Especially as you received nothing by way of commission for the referral, I think you don’t have any obligation to make any refund at all. If the encounter was unsuccessful for Dragutin, then he just puts it down to experience - we’ve all been there! Dragutin, build a bridge and get over it!
This is asinine, & totally shows how ridiculous the, “Everyone else is responsible for my stupid decisions in life.” Just because you make a statement on your site recommending another business that, you had a good result from, that statement in no way relieves the prospective client, reading the recommendation of first “CHECKING OUT SAID BUSINESS BEFORE sending Nicholas $1344 (ie. Checking with BBB, etc). WAaaay to many wannabe adults these days play this crap, & it really ticks me off they can’t take responsibility for their irresponsible behavior with their finances. I’ve had enough trial time to know I’ll eat my shorts if this guy isn’t laughed out of the court-room.. if it were to go that far. Kinda like the New York Civil Judge who tried to sue the poor S Korean dry cleaners for $1,000,000 for losing his $50 pants. I wouldn’t offer this idiot anything except maybe the advise of “Shove it up your rectum!”
And.. once you knew your experience was a fluke with the scam letter writer, you did what you could to let it be known you no longer recommended Nicholas.
My advice is tell Nicholas your recommending me for the letter writing from now on… “$1344″ for writing a letter. Heck yeah, I can write a letter or two.. and I can even finish finish letters! What a putz.. Both Nicholas, & the cry baby!
Absolutely not. Everyone takes risks. Big businesses put out adds that they pay for every single day-some flop some don’t Big businesses start projects that never get finished and hire contracters who never get the job done or done right. I built a house and part of the siding was messed up. The siding contractor was liable to fix “his” error but the builder still got his money.
This unfortunate experience is a risk of being in business. I feel for the guy because that was more than a few hundred bucks but the one responsible for the work is the guy he paid–not you Eric.
By the way Eric, great tips and training you have here. Keep up the awesome blog.
1.) No, you are not liable for making a recommendation. He was not paying you for your recommendation.
You did not guarantee this copywriter’s services.
What this guy needs to learn is that this is business. It’s called a business loss. It happens. Sometimes in our business, we make bad investments. That’s life, get over it.
I too, have made many bad business investments in my lifetime. I lost a commercial building, my home, lots of money and finally went bankrupt. Guess what, I took responsibility for my actions. Yeah, I had bad advice along the way, but ultimately, they were my choices and my decisions.
This guy needs to man up and take his loss like a real businessman and LEARN from his mistakes. That’s IT!
2.) I know you feel bad about recommending this copywriter. However, sh*? happens. You can’t be responsible for others actions.
If you really feel bad about this and it will help your concience, then give this guy his money back. However, ethically you have no responsibility here. You gave the recommendation in good faith and the copywriter let you down. It happens. It has probably happened before and will probably happen again.
I would not give him any money. He didn’t have to take your recommendation. That was his choice. He needs to take responsiblity for his own choices. I would tell him that I was sorry he had a bad experience and whish him well in the future.
These things happen all the time in business, not everything turns out rosy in every business dealing you are going to have. Don’t take it personally. Learn from it and drive on.
This poor guy that is whining about his money shouldn’t have risked it if he didn’t have it to risk in the first place. First of all the BBB doesn’t mean jack. Anybody can be a member of the BBB if you pay them an annual fee. It’s a scam organization. It doesn’t mean much. It was his fault that he let the guy go for 45 days w/o filing a complaint.
Again, it’s a business loss, it happens all the time in business. When it does, you write if off, learn from it and move on.
Nuff said. Let’s move on and get things done.
I have no sympathy for whiners and those who refuse to take responsibility for their actions.
Let me say that I, for one, think that you provide excellent advice, training and I have learned a tremendous amount of valuable info. from you, Eric. I have bought products from you and on your recommendation. Some I have been happy with, some not.
Don’t let this guy worry you. Keep up the good work.
(Now, aren’t you glad you asked for comments? HaHa)
Hi Eric,
I am sorry that this person lost that amount of money. It is also his responsiblity to double check, after all he is promoting his own business.
All businesses take a loss at some point. Many marketers have lost smaller amounts and I understand thousands of dollars on products over a period of time and they take it as a loss and learn from their mistakes .
There is no guarantee that what you do is going to work for you, but it may work for someone else. There should always be a disclaimer to protect your butt.
The way I see it. If you do it for one, the next person will say “That’s not fair!” You could end up paying a lot of greedy people out with unsubstantiated claims.
Cannot comment on the legality of it all. If it were me, I would do three things :-
1) Keep D as a future customer by offering to write his new letter for him, given he acknowledges that I was not the source of his problem. After all, it would simply cost me my (short) time and he gets what he wanted in the first place - and we are back to having a good working relationship.
2) Advise everyone on my list that this is what I decided to do, but only because it felt right to me to do so.
3) Create a video and send it to all on the dangers of concluding that recommendations are always current (at the time I said them) ; that they can and do change, sometimes very quickly and without notice ; that it is the ultimate responsibility of the viewer/reader when choosing to go or not to go with one of my recommendations (problem is, sometimes, that not stating the obvious can cause a few to put forward unjustifiable and unfair claims, whereas stating the obvious can usually stop them in their tracks - this from my own experience).
As an overzealous prosecutor might say, “someone will be held responsible.”
But that someone should be the offending party. Is that you? No.
With that said, there are still some lingering conscience issues that you obviously have to deal with or you would have just laughed and deleted his e-mails. And that being the case, I would suggest you contact the offending party (the bad copywriter) on behalf of your valued customer, (or client) and express your concern in the situation and remind him that it is in his best interest to take care of his reputation. As we can all see and anyone could see if they googled “Nicholas Cole copywriter,” reviews for or against someone is significantly damaging to his reputation.
Here is one such example of how a bad reputation can turn up on the first page of Google. (At #5 position)
[Beware Of Nicholas Cole Of MasteredManuscripts.com
May 7, 2009 … Nicholas Cole, the owner of masteredmanuscripts.com has taken his potential to be a good copywriter and decided to throw his reputation away …
http://www.marketingproductsreview.com/beware-of-nicholas-cole-of-masteredmanuscriptscom - Cached]
It may already be to late for this guy, Nicholas Cole, to save his name in the I.M. world. But it is my humble opinion for you my dear Christian brother, that as Jesus said, if someone compelled you to go with him one mile, go with him two. By that I mean attempt to advocate for your valued customer and be our champion! You never know, maybe Nicholas will see the light and do the right thing.
God bless you Erick!
I personally can’t see how you are responsible for reimbursing the client. You did what you thought was a good move, helping someone get some business by endorsing that person in good faith, and usually it is a good thing to promote someone or something you believe in or feel good about. However, you are not responsible for what a scam artist does (of course, if you were in cahoots with the scammer, that is a whole different thing.).
In my opinion is that all of those that thinks that Internet making money scheme is safe. You all stupid like me. In today society you have to learn to trust no one even your most trustful sources that you think are safe. In my opinion these individuals are all bunch of crooks and scammers, hope this has thought a good lesson to you, your $1344 USD kissing them goodbye, you will never see them again don’t matter what you do, I am speaking from experience I had Myself. Eric might be legit, but I will never trust Him either anyway.
I agree with Nancy go after the writer do ask
for a sample before hand
Hi Eric,
I know that I’m going to sound like my Myna bird, but I agree with the masses Eric…You have no obligation to repay this gentleman anything as I believe that in the final analysis it’s up to YOU to make any final decisions where money is concerned and YOU ALONE. Anyway, there are no guarantees that anything is going to work as expected, especially if your receiving it off of the internet. He should have done all of his checking through whatever means before he made any type of decision…that’s only common sense. So Eric, I think that your in the clear as far as this little problem is concerned. Just keep up the excellent work you do and I think that we can all go on from there. Good luck to us all!
2 points
1.) I would be reluctant to set a public precedent. If you do pay I would settle, privately, in writing with a confidentiality agreement and not for more than 1/2 since all your published material points to a disclaimer. All persons seeking income on the internet are aware of disclaimers and I believe the fact that they exist en masse, they apply whether specific to each situation or not. I think they are implied by the very nature of arms length transactions.
2.)
The higher the profile, you as a marketer enjoy, the more reluctant you should be to recommend anyone, because you and your reputation are inextricably linked in most every ones mind for all time. On this point you bear some responsibility, possible for helping him in some way.
Comment: It is probably time for forming some type of professional organization with public license or sanction ability. A multiple point rating scale could be developed which would indicate the strength or reliability of any endorsement based on a feedback system similar to ebay. Ie 4 points of judgment, on a 1-5 scale.
Interesting topic for discussion
In my opinion since your recommendation was an honest one you should be free from liability. In the future though if you plan to continue doing endorsements I would post a disclaimer to prevent future incidents of this nature.
G’day Eric,
If you made the reccomendation in good faith as you mentioned and there were no kickbacks
whatsoever. I can’t see that the person who lost his money can blame you. I’ve made decisions and lost money also but I hold resposibility for that as this person must.
Let’s not forget (Caveat Emptor) let the buyer beware. We should all keep this in mind when making a purchase of any kind, even if someone reccommends the product. Personally I like to get honest reccommendations so I would like to hear that from you in the future but you may need to declare that anyone will need to do their own due diligence on it and take resposibility for their own actions with regard to any purchase they might make.
David from Oz.
Hi Eric,
I am new to internet marketing,but have been in the building business for several years.In that time I have referred many customers to different trades people that I was happy with.
Not all referrals went as smooth as my experience with these trades.
In all counts of disputes non of my customers ask for compensation from me.
As in your case you are not responsible for the business dealings of these people.
Cheers Brian Mac
Hi Eric
I think you acted in good faith based on your own experience of the service provider. You are not responsible for refunding the customer, no matter how little or how large his investment was. We all make mistakes but we do learn from them and this incident will help all of us to tighten up our disclaimer pages.
Thank you for letting us know about this and for asking for our views.
Take care,
Audrey
If I were in your shoes, after having a good relationship with the copywriter, would get in contact with him, call him on his conduct, remind him of the right thing to do. Maybe there was a reason he failed, how do you know unless you talk. some people fail at something and just have to much pride to face up..just a thought.
Hello Eric! Based upon the info provided, In my most humble opinion YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE. A lot of people would love to receive a refund from a third party, especially when they realize the party they are dealing with is not handling the issue according to there needs. Those of us who are sincerely seeking higher knowledge understand that we have to allow people to live with what they attract. Unfortunately the client was not satisfied with the service received from the affiliate, but you were. For what ever reason, that client attracted that situation to go the way it did. You also attracted your situation to go the way it did. Yours just obviously went better. We never know how, why, or what others attract, but we should all understand we have to allow others to deals with whatever that may be. I hope this helps! Keep up the good work. Malik aka Souljah1
Very interesting read. I am an old guy, trying to get my niche up and running. Unfortunately, I have no young children or grandchildren around to help me with the computer/website stuff, so I have been trying to find out where to obtain the services of a reliable outsource person.
This makes me doubly cautious about who to deal with. I have had enough experience with Eric to know he is totally honest and would only make recommendations if he felt that this person would provide quality results. I have laid out several thousands over the past several years for advice and schemes, which were either beyond my scope of understanding at the time, or were totally useless. I never got a guarantee or a refund at any time.
I am amazed at the content Eric provides to us at very little cost, but which is easy to understand and follow. Eric, stay with your good ethical and moral values, and we will stand with you. Keep up your good work.
Thanks. Joe
Hi Eric, First off I don’t have that kind of money to pay a copywriter. However, I am online a LOT and I trust few internet marketers. YOU happen to be one of them. I have and am considering buying your stuff and have come close many time. I think its a question of PR - If you have the cash I say pay him.
Hi Eric, I felt sorry that you are being embarrased for trying to promote someone, trying to make him rich through his profession. Although, before endorsing this copywriter, you are expected to know his quality, long relationship, despite the fact that human being character changes for good and bad. You are a public figure and not new in this trade, in view of your articles i read. I therefore candidly suggest you mount presure on the writer, to deliver the good, no matter what because this world is a small place.If all effort fails, see how you could pacify the reader.Peace is by wisdom.
When I first started on the internet, I started doing surveys. These companies would tell you you take surveys ranging in price from $25.00-$75.00. The most offered from any of my sites, I did surveys for over 30 companies-percentage rate of finishing them to get paid was 80%-20%. I would usually see $2.00 surveys. I did not go back to thse companies even though I had needed money desperately, that’s why I joined them.
Then, I had about an online job that was endorsed by a regular on Good Morning America,. She highly recommended this online job called Project Payday. It cost me only around $5.00 to join. I had to accept offer that usually comes across your screen as a pop-up for a product to buy. I had to finish the buying procedure to join. That should have given me a huge red light. Anyway, I read all info & directed to first page of offers. I did exactly what I was suppossed to do and if my offers did 100% I would get paid. One company, that was worth 50 pts. stalled and stalled. I contacted them, asking why, they said they did to Project Payday. To make the story short, I never got paid, plus had the hassle of canceling them & the products-(which I would have never bought) I had to send them back through UPS. I was out the money, Project Payday never took care of it. I never dd anything else for them, lost my first job online and was extremely angry. Why would this highly intelligent woman-(I’ll not name names,) endorse this piece of crap company?
\But, I thought about it. I took that job. She didn’t hold my hand and take me through the door. This is life. Shit hapens. Sometimes, you may come across something or someone that you have good luck with, some person won’t. My son has terrible luck, I on the other hand, usually have great luck. But, what happened that day? If you are any part of the internet world, and halfway have listened to just about everything, you-the customer-may not seee the same results as someone else. Therefore, they are not accountable for this if you do not see those results. I just think, there’s too many times when we don”t stand up to the plate and acknowledge our own responsibility for what we do. Everyone is out for that fast buck, if it hasn’t been reached by what we purchased, then maybe we can claim it another way. I’m sorry, but Eric, you bear no responsibility for this person”s demise. I think they should take it like a person & fight that cause with the copywriter himself. Grow Up!
Eric:
Over and above the fact that you are one of the Good Guys in a sometimes pool of internet filth, you bear no responsibility, be it legal or ethical, in this matter.
1) You took no money from this individual.
2) Your endorsement was based solely on a quality personal business experience with this individual, and therefore was given in good faith.
3) It occurs to me that the person attempting to get repayment from you is counting on the obvious fact that you are a good guy and you do care.
The person obviously responsible for any repayment is the copywriter. Period. End of story.
Sincerely,
Lawrence E. Stahl
Rather than monetary compensation, ( I agree with your thinking that you owe him nothing) perhaps you could offer him some kind of “deal” or service that you are highy skilled in which would benefit him him but be of little cost to you…..You seem to want to make a situation right and that is admirable but there may be a way to do this without money and as a way of softening the blow for him.
It is a really galling situation when you pay up for work which is either not forthcoming or not up to expectation but I don’t think that you can be held responsible for this as you recommended the copywriter in good faith.
Hi Eric, you are not liable for this amount. The payment for this work was not received by you. You made a recommendation based on certain knowledge of the company, but you never entered into a legal contract for any default in performance of work.
Hi Eric I try to get to know a person before I
recomand him or her. I being in the legal field
people recomand me for my service. Even though a
person recomand a person it is that person responsibility to find out what kind of person
that person is about. You. I don’t think you
should be responsible on less you contract to
do the work yourself.I would seek legal advice
on this matter before I do anything.
John Thierry
Hi Eric,
In a nutshell, I believe that the contract was between the buyer and the seller and nothing to do with you.
The problem is the ease with which we give over our common sense to guys like you, placing you in a position of “god” which I’m sure you do not intend or welcome.
The real issue here is “What lessons have you learnt from this that you’ll want to share with those with whom you have influence”
Regards
The transaction was between the buyer and seller. You only made the recommendation based on the satisfaction you received. You didn’t twist anyone’s arm or force anyone did you? Dragutin should have done his own research first and not after-the-fact. I would be upset as well, but he shouldn’t look to put the blame on whoever will bite. Sometimes you just gotta let it go. Remember, so folks in Texas tried to suit Oprah over the mad cow disease, blaming her because people stop eating beef, she fought the case and won. If you had just settled to make it go away, she would have all sorts of folks coming at her for all kinds of issues. You seen honest and fair and its not your fault for someones else’s error. No Eric it’s not your responsibility, you just got caught in the middle. This too shall pass.
Of course you’re not responsible! But we are all responsible for our own mistakes.
Hi Eric,
this is Rajendra Dhakal. I’ve already getting you tricks and tips on optimizations. These are really very nice and worthy
Eric,
I’m going to take the road that most people do not take. I do believe that you owe him a refund or a exchange of products on your part. Even though you did not receive a affiliate payment from the copy writer you did receive a good will standing from within the marketing community. By posting any type of endorsement you are executing your status of a expert marketer, and making a profit from that status, whether directly or indirectly from that endorsement. By using your status of an expert marketer, and profiting from it you are in effect putting your reputation on the line to every newbie on the block. Newbies look to you for guidance in every step they make in marketing. Your a decent guy, or you wouldn’t provide all of the excellent guidance that you provide. Unfortunately, if you cant stand behind a endorsement, that a fledgling marketer see’s as the extension of your good name, and valuable knowledge, than don’t make any more endorsements.
The legal issue is one aspect (human law). under that you are not liable, for a genuine recommendation based on honest opinion. I think this is right that it should be so (unless you were paid for your recommendation which is whole can of worms).
In terms of ethics, (or god’s law as manifests in the voice of conscience inside) you would not be asking the question if you did not feel uneasy about just getting off scot free.
This does not mean you are to blame in any way, but you feel (as all Chrsitians should) for the suffering of an innocent fellow human.
What i would do (without ever accepting any actual liability at law) would be to offer to either split the cost - or - a better idea since you probably can do this cheaper) offer etraining/materials for a value equivalent fo what the victim has lost, or part way there.
Doing this will ensure that you build what may in time become a beauiful friendship.
God bless you for even asking about this!
mark
Hey Eric, difficult and murky situation but I believe it is the responsibility of each and everyone to personally check out and verify that it is OK to do business with someone. YOU CANNOT DUMP THE RESPONSIBILITY ON SOMEBODY ELSE. He has apparently now made checks on testimonials which he should have made at an earlier stage before his transaction. All sympathy to him but it is unfair to ask you for recompense when it is apparent that you recommended in good faith. He might look at it that the great information that you pay for research for and learn yourself and provide to others from your website and thru your newsletters leaves him well ahead in dollars compared to what he would have to pay if he had to do it all by himself. One of the main reasons I always read your emails is because of the high standard and the integrity of the information that you provide. Thank you for all of it. Although I have not mentioned this to you personally before it is very much appreciated by myself and I am sure many others. Like you said, the wrong person is being asked to redress the wrong. Please keep providing your recommendations they save us all heaps of time and dithering between going with A or going with B and I will keep remembering that old caution BUYER BEWARE.
If you have to ask I think you already knew the answer. That’s why the phrase “Buyer Beware” became so popular.
Despite the advice given to consider paying this guy as an act of goodwill I beleive it sends the wrong meesage….1. It sets you up for further claims of this type b) It encourages people to not take responsibility for there own purchasing decisions c) You can sometimes kiil people with kindness…people rescued too often never learn from their mistakes. I think your doing him a favour NOT paying
If you weigh what you give away & the benefits is of your “give aways” to everybody, how can you be held responsible if in one instance someone did not get the same service as you. Nail the guy that let you down!!
I suggest that you have your answer now. No mistaking how people feel. The bottom line is:It is not how big or small the amount of money is but what is RIGHT & what is WRONG. You may consider assisting this person in another way - NOT REFUND him - as a gesture of good will.
I don’t think you are personally liable. The customer did not have to act on your advice and everyone has different experiences with different people.
If you give the refund, you will losing credibility, and do you really want that? In your words, you did this in good faith, so shouldn’t it remain at that and be chalked up as a learning experience? The customer would have to find alternate ways so that no one involved would lose face. I sympathize with all the parties involved.
Bear one thing in mind though — it’s easier to catch bees with honey than anything else!
If I WAS IN YOUR SITUATION I WOULD TRY TO TALK TO THE PERSON YOU RECOMMENDED.IF THAT DOESN’T DO ANYTHING, I WOULD HELP THE PERSON OUT,BY DOING THE LETTERS OR COPYRIGHT MYSELF OR SETTING HIM UP WITH SOMEONE WHO WOULD HELP HIM.I DON’T THINK YOU SHOULD GIVE HIM $$$$$ THOUGH!!!
P.S I’M TAKING YOUR FREE VIDEO COURSE,IT’S GREAT & SIMPLE TO UNDERSTAND.THANK’S AL LOT BILL.
There are plenty of comments here regarding this particular situation, so I’m not going to add to them. What I will say, though, is that Internet Marketers need to be more careful in the products that they promote to their lists. I’ve purchased a handful of lousy IM products over the past year that have been promoted by some of the IM gurus that supposedly have had advance viewing of these products, and so should know better than to promote a bad product. Maybe they are simply trying to help out a friend, but that doesn’t make it right to promote the friend’s poorly conceived product. This is the kind of nonsense that (rightfully) gives the industry a bad name. The gurus and wannabe guru’s need to stop chasing the almighty dollar and start focusing on building a real business based on sound business principles.
Eric you are not responsible for this unfortunate fello. It would not be good business for you as this would truly open the flood gates. Also this would not be good business for us, by that i mean if you took the fall for this then most likely you would not recommend to us some of the great products that you have found in your wide network. We all know that you are one of the good guys and when you do recommend something we know its just that, a recommendation and we should do our own research into those products before we buy. If you take the fall we all will fall with you and that’s not good business.
In my opinion i say that you are not responsible for paying back the refund,But the right thing to do for me is not recomend the copywriter if he fells to fix that problem with the person who has the problem. Everybody make mistakes but this is not a mistake for you. By puting up this problem to all your readers is the right thing to do, besides,let them know what is the end of this problem. And we the readers will have the confiace and the trust on you!
Hey Eric,
You seem like a trustworthy marketer, and everthing I have purchased from you has been on the up & up and very good value. Its too bad their are still scammers lurking out there, and proves even the best can be scammed sometimes. I hope Dragutin can get his refund from Nicholas Cole, but are you liable, HELL NO!!! I’m sure this blog will hurt him more than one can imagine.
Eric, Ive followed you and think you are the only one giving great info out of all the ‘gurus’ (sorry) but you do have a position of authority and unless you carefully word your recommendations, I feel you are morally responsible. I didnt read your exact wording so cant judge. I would state MY OWN EXPERIENCE with the person/copmpany and that I do not have records of or contacts with his/their other customers/clients and cant be held responsible for any action of his/the company. Knd of sad that the world has come to this but people do listen to you and that has responsibility.
Marvin Von Renchler
Eric,
I don’t believe you are liable for any of it!!
The $1344 shd be refunded from the copywriter only…. Nicholas should refund immediately!!!
I think what you could do is help the customer make his money back to what he lost. So he lost $1400, what you can do is give him help to make that back from his profits. It might be a good idea and he wouldn’t feel so unhappy.
Interesting dilema. My first thought is with regard your reader asking a refund from you. I get the money is not really chump change, but I still feel he is reaching asking you personally for the refund. Understanding you have not profited from this situation, and are yourself a victim I think he is throwing a large net to see what can be pulled in. Now with regard the remark of being a victim, Eric, you are because your credibility has been affected by supporting this copywriter.
I could liken it to the often told story of a builder who has supposedly done great work for other people, and you have even gone to look at the examples themselves. When it comes to the work he does with your home it is a horror story. Does this make the home owners who had good work done liable? I would think not. Would you go to those home owners and ask for remunerations for the shoddy work done to your home? I think not. Would you as a home owner feel sorry and guilty for having had good work done by this builder, and then seen the builder do shoddy work elsewhere? Yes you would, but would you be liable? No.
In my opinion the key here is it’s making you feel bad at a number of different levels, which your heart wants you to settle. The trouble here is that there is a presidents that involves all online marketers. A policy here that we all need to follow, and understand. Firstly, we all need to be confident that the products and services we promote work as we state they do. Secondly, if we are the recipient for finacial reward for those things we promote then there has to be some form of money back/product back guarentee for dissatisfied customers. Thirdly, be careful about products and services you promote or adverties where there is no finacial gain because your credibility as a marketer will collaspe if the product does not do as it says it can. Fourthly, in the event the product does not do as it says it can be sure you do everything in your power to notify your readers of these failures.
Erics Tips is a great resource packed with countless hours of practical information ~ free of charge!
In any business transaction it is Let the Buyer Beware. Test the product or services on a small scale, have firm timelines and expectations with written contracts.
Based on the details outlined it does not sound like an Erics Tips product and the endorsement was retracted.
Perhaps one additional step for the future might be an email to all, like this one, mentioning that it recently came to your attention that a vendor was not upholding customer agreements and you had removed your endorsement. See website for additional details.
Thank you for showing us all how to handle and discuss such internet grievances.
All the best to you!
Right off, you are not responsible for refunding him. Paying that particular amount of money up front is always a BIG RISK! You better know who & what your investing in from start to finish at $1000+ out the gate! Escrow is the definite way to go thru this scenario.
Thanks,
Shawn B.
Internet Bizz Rookie
(made some $ online, but not NEAR enough yet)
Been there, done that. In my opinion it ultimately is buyer’s responsibility to do their homework. Just because you listed it doesn’t mean it will do what they may want. There should have been correspondence prior between the two of them out lining the expectation and responsibilities along with repercussions for failure to meet the obligations. If they could not agree on the expectations then you move on to another party. If they were satisfied with there expectation and a commitment given, then the responsibility lies between the two of them. Due diligence is the order on the buyer side.
Hi Eric, Obviously we all respect you for your clear and incredibly helpful blog “Eric’s Tips”, and are NOT slamming you for recommending Mr Cole’s services.
BUT this blog post (and it’s 1000 responses) is getting disturbing and out of hand, I think. I’ve read all the documents you provided (the pdf file of correspondence, the Govt regulations about testimonials), I’ve followed the link to the Review site given by a reader above, and followed the link in that review to the discussion on Warrior Forum, and I’ve read about 600 of the comments posted by other readers. The sum total effect is gut-churning.
The Warrior Forum discussion shows positive as well as negative comments in EQUAL number. The pdf file reveals a very vague brief from Dragutin, an actual sales letter produced by Cole,and a promise to make necessary changes. The comments from your readers suggest enough answers — Mr Dragutin should have made more inquiries before handing over any money, and been alerted when only 1 response came in. He has NO legal claims on you, and is just taking a chance on your ‘good guy’ behaviour to at least get a free and effective letter out of you, if not the entire amount that he spent carelessly.
N Cole has been totally trashed now, and absolutely hammered into the ground. His reputation has been destroyed (for the princely sum of $1344). I urge you, as the good Christian-with-a conscience that you are, to stop this thread of comments. I hope you’ve been able to contact Cole, and give us an update as you promised. You’ll have us sympathising with Cole if people keep hitting him when he’s down.
You have made your point, even louder and clearer than you intended — 1) Your readers have convinced Dragutin that you owe him nothing, but, might give him some help which he should be grateful for. 2) You have cleared your reputation by rescinding the favourable recommendation you had given Cole earlier. 3) You’ve proved (to yourself and your competitors) that you write so powerfully that nearly a thousand blog-readers rise up in your defense in a few short days. Now, please stop the bloodbath. Nobody is going to do any more business with Cole, perhaps in his entire life - we’ve been duly and properly warned. Those who found him a good copywriter when he had a volume of business he could handle will NOT speak up now in the face of the outcry of your readers. Dragutin has a lot to answer for — look at the product he was trying to promote anyway! The pdf file gives an idea. If anything, he has got a million dollars worth of publicity out of this and his ‘pound of flesh’.
Why was the guy Cole’s name even printed? I mean why wasn’t it blurred out. I’m suspicious now
I know how you feel you are 100% NOT RESPONSIBLE for the dealing from the other person, they should of checked him out better.
he might of been a good writer in the beginning then went down hill after the money started rolling in.I git this selling on eBay people say that they didn’t receive your product when actually i know that they did,he should of opened a claim with pay pal before the 45 days were up now the answer to the question lies with you Eric how do you feel,is it disturbing your sleep or contraction ,my self it always bothered me that someone was out money so to make my self feel better i always refunded there money hope this helpes
hi Eric
I am confused.I am new to internet business, but I would say that it was the purchases responibility to check out what they were buying wether someone endorsed it or not, I am looking to joint venture with someone who has a list, but this scares me.If that sale was a scam, it damages all good people. good luck, and keep up your good work with your tips. thanks
You should not pay.
I think you pretty well said it all in your own discussion.
I don’t think “checking out the other person” is the complete answer here, but every consumer has the obligation to do what research they think is appropriate. If you are going to shell out that kind of money, you should do a lot of research and then, based on that research, make your decision. Note that is YOUR DECISION. Then, if it falls apart, use the remedies available to you, which doesn’t or certainly shouldn’t include getting some third party who made no money off the transaction to pay you back. Even then, if the third person did make some money off the transaction, their innocent liability, if any, should be limited to the money they made off the transaction. (I don’t even like that!) If that doesn’t get your money, then you just paid some tuition. Life goes on and this person should, too. They can keep going after the responsible seller if they have a real need to do that, but get on with your life and other endeavors. It ain’t always fair, but they shouldn’t be trying to balance the scales by doing something unfair themselves.
Gee, That sure is quite a problem !
I’m not exactly sure about the legalities of the situation, you are going to have to consult your Attorney. However, moral/ethically speaking you may be liable and probably only 50%, at best. This is something you are going to have to process through earnest prayer. Sincerely, In His Majesty’s Service.
I don’t think you are responsible at all. The copywriter is responsible for refunding the money. As others have said, maybe assist him in another way as an act of good faith.
Dear Eric,
Of course you are not responsible for someone else’s fault.
I wish you had time to teach us a little about ethical issues in internet marketing.
Thank you so much for yor excellent gob.
Yours sincerely,
Naser.
Hi Eric,
You are not responsible for the refund. But probably as a sign of empathy you should offer something to help the victim.
I can see your delema right off the bat. My couriosity lay’s in why all of a sudden this copyrighter decided to stiff this person. He even stated after reading client post on his website that he decided to hire the guy. At that point in the conversation, I would feel releived and not morally or leaglly responsible. But I would still be courious as to why now, why him, in this day and age 1344.00 is not really a lot of money, now I know to some of us it is. So to answer your question, I agree with you that your not responsible leagaly or morally. But that I would offer him any kinda help to him to try and get a refund from the copywriter.
Mike
When a waiter recommends a bottle of wine the customer does not have to buy it even though it is poured and tasted.
ethically I would be careful about your affiliates as you can’t know everyones business practices.
Is it cheaper for you to refund Dragutan or to give him an hour of your time to coach him?
Although in this case it appears the customer was expecting alot more than the vendor was planning to give.
I think this case is a sticky one.
Good luck mate.
You are not responsible in any way for providing a refund, as others have mentioned here. How many times have every marketer online, recommended a product / service, only to have something go bad? Was the person who recommended it liable? No, not if it was like you said, your own experience.
It’s like saying, you recommended a hotel to a friend… who went and had a horrible trip, but had to pay the bill because they (probably) paid it in advance. Did you have to refund the person because he wasn’t happy?
(Yes obviously this is slightly different because that’s an offline service, but a service just the same).
Is every editorial or legitimate recommendation (with no compensation) liable for providing a person for a refund for the same reasons?
** In fairness to your subscriber though ** if he really didn’t get the service, (which frankly we’ve all been through, and it’s a business write off)… there IS a time frame of 6 months in most places, even with paypal being in between, you can do a chargeback.
Some companies (Visa I think) provides 9-12 months.
They must file the chargeback with their credit card company first - then paypal will handle it… and the person would have to prove that it was provided.
Alternately, depending on what countries both parties live in… there IS a small claims court, or even collections
Not ideal, but if the person is slapped with a letter from a lawyer or a court date, or even a collections officer, it might force them to take note.
In Canada you can go to the courthouse and file a lien against property of a person (i.e. a car).
In some of these instances, the costs might be more than they’re worth for the money spent, but the fact is, there ARE options.
File the complaint regardless with Paypal - they may consider stopping his account for Fraudulent transactions (not supplying the service) even if it was after the time frame.
Call them personally - don’t do the automated system.
Hope these help.
Hi Eric, I’ve not read all the comments here so this could be a duplication of another comment, but considering your ability to operate profitably in the Internet Market (I think you should ‘not’ admit liability as you were peobably as much a victim of the transgressor as your complainant) to show good faith you could run a campaign for him alongside one of your own until such time as the person has recouped his outlay.
He would gain extremely valuable experience, you wouldn’t be out of pocket, and your conscience would be clear.
I hope you have a satisfactory outcome to this, and I hope it doesn’t put you off helping others the way you do.
Pete.
It is the copywriters responsibility to refund the money. The transaction of money for service was between the two of them, it does not include you. If you recommend a restaurant to me and I go and eat there and then I get sick, should you pay for my meal? No, the restaurant owner is responsible for my bad experience and should compensate me.
Perhaps you could assist this person into finding a legal avenue to take, if that is possible in this situation.
I don’t think you owe anything to this person, but out of kindness you could try to help him find a way to resolve it and hopefully get some or all of his money back.
Hi Eric
My first question would be how come you paid $197 and Dragutin paid $1344, was he getting a book written? If only one person, who had given a testimonial, replied to his queries why did he proceed in the first place? You gave a recommendation based on your experience, did you make it sound to good to be true? I can’t see how you can be held responsible and if you are crazy enough to pay this money every nutter will be wanting refunds from you for anything you have been foolish enough to promote. Is it a little bit of greed when we see people working the affiliate side of the market? Stick to your own products, they stand on their own feet, and leave it to others to ‘promote’ associated products. The whole thing is out of hand. Speaking for myself I am sick to death of the emails I get from people I have done busines with and purchased their personal material, and then they try to flog someone else’s to make that extra buck, there is only so much ‘back end’ marketing a person can stand. I have only had a couple of occassions when I asked for my money back and because I was dealing with the person who owned the product there was no problem. Sadly I think Dragutin needs to follow the old adage of ‘Byer Beware’.Regards Sylvia.
Eric, a follow up to my post of a few days ago. I just took a few moments to read the wide variety of responses you have received. A true study in human nature and emotion.
Let’s say that I followed all of your instructions (hopefully) to the letter, dotted all of my (i’s) and crossed all my (t’s) and failed to get one person to come to my web site, are you responsible? So I get rid of the we site and try again, start over and the same thing happens, are you still responsible?
That’s exactly what has happened to me. But I am learning. Knowing nothing about the web just four (4) months ago, I can say that this old dog is learning new tricks every day. I will continue to learn and do my best not to blame others for my mistakes. I’ve done that for five years, now it’s time to move forward, again.
Maybe we all should start by taking a good look at ourselves.
Notes to take into consideration for your problem.
1) It depends what you said in your recommendation. This is important because it will demonstrate your intentions e.g. good, bad or indifferent!
2) Did you infer, in any way that, if all fails, he could regress to you for recompense? If not, then that should be the end of the matter for you. The complainant can only proceed with business with anyone else after his business with you. If you told him, like, “Come back to me if it doesn’t work out” or “Allow me to recompense you if you feel you aren’t satisfied with the work supplied by ‘a person.’” In either case, I don’t think that you are a chap who would sell yourself down the river, somehow.
3) Unfortunately, when formal proceedings develop then emotions go out the door with a definitive slam. What we are left with is a cold hard look at the case and there is only one thing that decides whether you were in the right or wrong and that is ‘evidence.’ If you examine your written work and find that you left the ‘back door’ open then any low, sinister lout can have a look around and because you left the ‘back door’ open then anyone can enter. So, did you leave the ‘written’ back door unlocked which will give him a way back to you. Of course, having said that, we mustn’t forget your honourable or dishonourable ‘intentions.’ Did you say to this ‘any person’ that although his work isn’t up to scratch you will still recommend him… for, say, 10% more than normal commission. Or, did this ‘any person’ say that if you recommend him then you can have 10% more than normal. It seems to me, as a non-legal practitioner, that the last thing he wrote could, indeed, be the ‘open back door.’ He inferred that you described ‘any person’ as ‘trustworthy and reliable.’ If you put that in writing then it’s possible that he has a way back to you but if it’s not in writing then that ‘back door is well and truly closed. Your protection may be that ‘you know of him and your mention of him was to assist the writer as a
‘first-instance’ contact and not a first class recommendation of his work as you have never seen his work.
What transpired beyond that was clearly between the ‘person of choice’ and the complainant.
What is left is that you must prove that your intention was ‘trustworthy and reliable’ when you recommended ‘a person’. If you can prove that then his only recourse is to ‘the person of the writers choosing’.
I would like to point out that the points raised in this writing are merely my own opinion and I must point out to you that I am in no way a legal professional. I, therefore, cannot condone anyone using what I’ve written as a final legal understanding but, merely, my honourable wish to assist you in any way possible. I am so disappointed that anyone could come back to such a good man as you and throw the legal responsibility onto your good self. I hope that you have provided yourself with a ‘disclaimer statement’ which may well help you out of this sorry mess. I hold, in contempt, anyone who seeks any way possible, regardless of blame, to achieve their goals to retrieve money or any other loss from those who are innocently endeavouring to be helpful. I wish you success in your endeavours to free yourself of such a diabolical mess. Maybe your job was done when you innocently provided the writer with a contact for his work. His would be the responsibility of researching the person in question
Thank you,
Roger.
Hi Eric,
A little late to “party” sorry. In can empathize with the moral/ legal dilemma, I’ve been there myself.
In short you are not obligated. Hopefully the phrase “caveat emptor” has come to mind. I know your reputation on line is arguably spotless, and kudos for being up front and honest.
One thing you may want to consider, if you accommodate one person, what is to say this won’t trigger a deluge of “refund requests”?
Also, how do you know the person you recommended hasn’t had a change of heart? (not mind). Meaning since your initial work with them- they became corrupt.
Going by what is stated in your post all this transpired without you being directly involved and hence you are free. The dispute is between your reader and the referred person. Best guess is the reader is mad, wants his money and is trying every avenue he can to get it.
I’ve used a quote by Abraham Lincoln many times to settle disputes, “it’s not the strength of your position that counts, but the quality of your compromise.”
Dunno– just my two cents.
-Dave
As much as you would like to help the guy out, just not your problem. It would not correct the issue anyway. Good luck…
Hi Eric,
Legally: probably no responsibility,
Ethically: probably yes, I agree with the people suggesting a comp product from your library, better than what he didn’t get, also better than what he paid for
Eric in the many years that I have been in the personal customer service realm, I have seen recommendations flourish and others fail. In all cases I have listened to the complaint of the individual who felt wronged, it takes a lot of sifting to get to the truth of some matters in others it is apparent readily. In all cases as a manager I realize that there are some situations that cannot be rectified and in others I have performed the service myself to correct the issue. In the situation before you, it is integrity that is being brought into question, your professionalism in this matter is your redeeming virtue. I understand that this post may not be viewed as you are rectifying what you are able, however it is only yourself and your God that knows which direction you must take.
I believe you are a praying man, and God is not one to with hold himself from you, and the way you should go. Trust is hard to recover once lost, your talent and heart is your redemption. I believe that you will exercise wisdom here and act accordingly.
Is ABC, NBC, CBS, or any other advertisers responsible for the products they promote?
Eric. I was taken for a large sum last year and loss on other related purchase that was to be handled by a company. I tried every recourse to be reembursed by the company without success. I am still paying for it not only financially but in other ways too. but I would pay even more if an innocent party paid me for what they did not owe. That would cause me much anguish. No, you are not responsible just because you recommended someone for a service you had previously used and did receive good service from.
Tihs is the main reason I would never buy any of these scams! I don’t care how many 7777’s the price ends in!
I agree with you. You can’t be held responsible on how a copywriter treats other customers. He did right by you and that’s where you drew on your recommendation. Especially since you did not receive a commision from the transaction. If you do anything out of compassion for the person you could be opening a can of worms which you would regret in the future. The person deserves a refund but not from you.
I agree that you do not have a responsibility to pay the money.
A compassionate response to the person is ok. Expain that you have taken the persons name off the recommendation list.
No, I know little about lawsuits, but I don’t think you are liable.
Hi Eric!
The old saying “Buyer beware”. You are not responsible at all. If I tell you there is a discounted computer at Wallmart. Its up to you to investigate and you decide to buy or not. Does not mean you get the same deal I got. Tough Luck. No, you are not responsible at all.
I would at least recommend breaking up the payment 50/50. Yeah you could lose the first 50%, but it’s more likely that the contractor will be motivated to finish the job so they can get the 2nd 50%.If you bought a house that developed problems, would you expect the realtor to pay for the problems or the contractors, read the fine print on the disclaimer, get help to understand it and it will usually say that any legal issues will be dealt with in your county or state, not where he or she lives, which may varies a lot. Was this person aware of the new FTC rules before signing on the dotted line? Not knowing that it was a bad recommendation isn’t your fault, it should still be buyer beware when making a big purchase and to check if others have been satisfied with his work before hiring him to do some work. By offering to pay him back partial payment would open a court case for him to get more from you plus any court costs.
This is his problem with the copywriter, not yours to deal with. Its a hard lesson about buyer beware, but you are not at fault for what he or she does with his choices that are being made.
You are not under any moral nor legal obligation to pay for such a travesty.It should be a law suit against the copy writer who did not deliver.From an emotional point of view ,perhaps you can find a copywriter friend who will do a pro-bono job for the plaintiff in exchange for either a product or endorsement in the future.This may sound like a catch 222 considering the circumstances that initially spawned this.However,most copy writers wish to protect their reputation at all costs.
Eric, you do have a responsibility; however, it is not a financial one. You have a responsibility to take the time to get all the facts from both sides before you go throwing money at the problem. You don’t know either of the parties on a personal level. Do the math before you supply the answer. Make sure you have all the (true) facts from both sides. You may find that what you don’t know can hurt you. Don’t underestimate the power of fraud or the cunning of fraudulent people. I’m not making accusations, I’m just saying look at other possible scenarios and be ware of those who want you to pay for someone else’s mismanagement of their personal business funds. Fraud can be a gruop effort. Think!!! You gave a recommendation based on a project that cost you less than $200. Not more than $1,000.. The fact that he allegedly paid much more than you did shows that he gave more credit to the copywriter than your recommendation allowed for. And, do really know that he did in fact pay that? Don’t pay it, there are other alternatives weigh them all out. Mel
Such desconsideration trying to get you pay for work you can’t guarantee…You are already making your best trying to provide the best information for on line marketing…He should pay you instead for the free information which can be used to make money.
I have been away for over a month since seeing this letter and it has given me a chance to think of my response.
You made the recommendation in good faith and you and your creditability, as well as the customer has been burnt by the actions of the writer.
I do not support a repayment by you.
Looking at the quality of the correspondence would also suggest that the writer does not appear to represent quality work.
I have also had now the chance to read your response and others and feel that my support is still as above.
The client has scored well from your obtaining of another writer.
What I`d like to know is:
1.When recommending this writer did you actually have a notification of no liability on it, you know, a bit like a no guarantee of earnings disclosure if you purchased a system to make money on the Internet? I believe if you had, the complainant wouldn`t have a leg to stand on!
2.Have ALL the facts been disclosed to you by both parties?
3.I personally believe that the complainant is chancing his arm:
(A) Although you made the recommendation in good faith from personal experience, the actual CONTRACT if we can call it that, was structured between the writer and the complainant.
(B) The complainant should have carried out further research on the writer`s abilities and required other references - come on, how naive can a person be.
(C) In this day of “Easy-Sue” there is more burden being placed on a complainant - YOU JUST CANNOT EXPECT A REFUND IF YOU HAVE NOT EXERCISED FULL RESPONSIBILITY OF YOUR OWN ACTIONS - (NO FURTHER RESEARCH OR REQUESTING OF REFERRALS AND WORK SAMPLES)
I do not know your Religious background but think that if you are a true Christian, then you would probably refund in full just because you think it might be the right thing to do.
I SAY HALT - “LET THE BUYER BEWARE”
Be sure to read the resolution if you haven’t yet
http://www.ericstips.com/tips/liablepart2/
Hey, Eric
I know it’s a bit late to be commenting on this subject again…but I recently happened to be re-watching some of your Lessons– specifically, Lesson 51–and was shocked to find that it still mentions Nicholas Cole as an inexpensive reliable copywriter for people to hire.
Granted, chances are that a person who might go looking for his services based on your recommendation probably won’t find him, since word about his duplicity has gotten around…still, wouldn’t it be a good idea to do a bit of editing on that particular lesson so that he isn’t mentioned at all?
I noticed that you made some changes to Lesson 1 since I first listened to it, so it seems sort of unfortunate that you haven’t done the same with this Lesson, in light of Nick Cole’s horrible reputation. Those of us who are aware of it won’t bite, of course, but I, at least, have gladly recommended your Lessons to people who are interested in learning a bit about internet marketing, and they would be unlikely to realize that this guy’s a sham.
Just a thought. Hope you get a chance to look this over, since I wasn’t sure of where else to contact you about it.
I haven’t had a chance to re-record that lesson. However, if you go to the URL that I mention in the lesson you will see that it does not go to Nicholas’ site, and it says that I no longer recommend him. Thanks!
Ahhh. Well, that’s all right, then. Admittedly, I did not got to the link first; I was too busy being taken aback by the continued existence of the video, and so immediately came here to comment.
I’m glad you’ve make it clear that you no longer recommend Nicholas, should a new internet marketer decide try to go to link mentioned in the video–and I should have expected that you would, knowing your reputation and how seriously you take it.
Thanks for your reply, Eric; it’s good to know that you read and take concern even for older posts. Truly, you’re a gem among Internet Marketers…and human beings.
Oh, hey, my bad…it was Lesson 52, “Outsourcing Copywriting,” that still recommends Nicholas Cole, not Lesson 51.
I think you could offer your customer to write the sales letter for him, just do the job your client is missing, and you will both be happy. I know you can write sales letter Eric without beeing pushy, just pre-sale and show the benefits and you can do the job this guy is missing out.
David Norden
http://www.secretmarketinglinks.com
In my opinion, I believe the only ones who were in contract with each other are responsible.
It’s like recommending someone to paint a house because they did a nice job on yours. If they hire them, ONLY the worker should be held responsible. I know, I have seen this happen recently.
The man you mentioned hired the copywriter. So what if you recommended him based on past experience. He should be dealing only with the copywriter, not you.
This is basic common sense, something that seems in short supply lately. If the consumer thought about it, even though he wants recompense or vengeance, it isn’t your fault.
Everyone who makes a contract, no matter how flimsy, should except responsibility, not push it off on someone else because they recommended the person. Isn’t that called “due diligence”?
I am in agreement that you are not responsible to repay him. He , of his on free will decided to hire a copywriter. He did so on your suggestion. You provided the suggestion based on your previous good experience. If we are to be liable for the behavior of others then we would never recommend anyone because although they may have served us well, circumstances change daily and the person that you recommend as a result of your experience has since chosen to not deliver, how is what you did wrong. The victim may have surfed the net , ask 100 others their opinion before accepting your advise. He is responsible for his actions , the liabilty to either deliver or refund is soley that of the copywriter.
In the offline world I handle similar situations all the time. I am a boat/Yacht broker.When someone ask me for a recommendation , lets say for a shipper to transport their boat either by road or by water, I answer the issue by providing them with a list of 3 to 5 choices. They choose from a list. This releives the liabilty because I did not neccessarily recommend a specific provider only a group. I have been to court over a situatuion like this and the judge clearly ruled that I was not liable. I felt that I addressed my customers request for a suggestion and then left the outcome up to them. Hope you can use this suggestion.
(NOT sure how old this issue is at this point)BUT I don’t think you should pay, it teaches poor business decisions on your part and you are the (&my)instructor of I.M Business: bad lesson!! I recently had a similar problem of 300 and i wrote the affiliate/teaches/instructor of mine, but not to ask for the money from him. Only to warn him of this false practice from a person he endorsed. I told him i would take of care of it but wanted to give him the heads up. I think the 3rd party beef should be with PayPal or his CC company not YOU!
I love your lessons Eric
Also, Your a good Copywriter. Why don’t you just finish it or have someone on your team do it? & that’s just because YOU can and you are being charitable, nice guy
How did this end By the way? too many comments to read lol
Read part 2: http://www.ericstips.com/tips/liablepart2/